Kargil and PAF's role - by a PAF officer.

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I believe this was posted a few months ago directly from Kaiser Tufail's blog was it not?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...l-pafs-role-paf-officer.html?highlight=tufail

 

[Khalids]

Thanks Blain2 for considering me on NS side, I thank to Allah who saved me siding idiot generals . Do you think that NS lacks courage, what about nuclear test? And what about the famous call the great and courageous Musharaf recieved from Washington, forwarded by Gen. Mahmud?

Now, I would like to quote a small conversation of one of the followers of Hazrat Ali with him on the prevailing unresst during his caliphate.

"Ameerul momemeen was asked that why it was political unrest during his caliphate when he was Assadullah, the city of knowledge and all the three early khalifas sought his advice to solve their problems?
He answered: Its simple. They had me as thier councellor and I have people like you."

How would you like to give your advice on this. Who do you think was faulty? The Khalifa or his councellors?

Its with us that we immediatetly turn towards personalities without deep thinking. Idolators.

For anybodys kind information, I have always been saved by my Lord to follow any human bieng blindly, because non of the human biengs is going to save me on the judgement day except His mercy. So please spare yourself from these mean thoughts.

Na rahi teri woh roshan zameery
Ay kushta e sultani o mullaee o peeri

 

[blain2]

Yes this is old news. It finally went down the grape vine to the Indian media for whom this is new revelation..

 

[blain2]

Thanks Blain2 for considering me on NS side, I thank to Allah who saved me siding idiot generals . Do you think that NS lacks courage, what about nuclear test? And what about the famous call thegreat and courageous Musharaf recieved from Washington, forwarded by Gen. Mahmud?

Now, I would like to quote a small conversation of one of the followers of Hazrat Ali with him on the prevailing unresst during his caliphate.

"Ameerul momemeen was asked that why it was political unrest during his caliphate when he was Assadullah, the city of knowledge and all the three early khalifas sought his advice to solve their problems?
He answered: Its simple. They had me as thier councellor and I have people like you."

How would you like to give your advice on this. Who do you think was faulty? The Khalifa or his councellors?

Its with us that we immediatetly turn towards personalities without deep thinking. Idolators.

For anybodys kind information, I have always been saved by my Lord to follow any human bieng blindly, because non of the human biengs is going to save me on the judgement day except His mercy. So please spare yourself from these mean thoughts.

Na rahi woh tery woh roshan zameery
Ay kushta e sultani o mullaee o peeri

Actually I did not suggest that you were on his side. Simply stated that you were letting him off the hook too easily.

Bringing Syedna Ali's (RA) example in this situation is not going to help the case. Our leaders are not even worth the shadow of the Tabaeen, let alone the sahaba RA.

How would you like to give your advice on this. Who do you think was faulty? The Khalifa or his councellors?

You should understand the context first before quoting stories of the Rightly guided Khalifas.

The case in Kargil was one of a response to the choking of Pakistan's northern areas by Indian fire. Similar plans had been considered in the times of Zia and BB as well. In their times, both of these leaders had shot them down thinking that it would cause a spiraling of relations downwards.

NS was assisted by his MS and other personalities who were retd Army and who had operated/commanded in the area. They were part of the briefings given to him. In the end the decision as his to make whether it should go or not. The Army was not ruling at the time, it was PM Nawaz Sharif who had appointed the Army Chief and he was the one responsible for all decisions made. The buck stops there. You should also realize that.

There are multiple personalities on record, including Lt Gen Ziauddin Butt (appointed CoAS in place of Musharraf by NS) who has categorically stated in an interview (published in a book) that NS was briefed and was fully aware of the operations.

You can make whatever of it. All I can say is that including sycophants as your advisers usually brings the downfall of all high and mighty. NS, BB, Musharraf were all victims to this same coterie of advisers and after you chose to have them advise you, you cannot blame anyone but yourself (in this case NS himself) for the problems that occur under your own charge. Taking responsibility is the one thing that we as Pakistanis seriously lack. If we did, we would be that much better off.

Lastly, do not take any of the above personally. I am just commenting on the state of affairs and not criticizing you.

 

[IceCold]

There is no way in hell NS did not knew about the kargil incident and even if we admit for a second that kargil was launched without NS approval, he still is to blamed after all what kind of shitty PM was he if he did not knew what is going on in his country. A person who cannot maintain control has no right to be the PM of Pakistan. But guess what we the stupid and ignorant nation of Pakistan has forgotten all of this and if i am not wrong he might be in power pretty soon. God bless Pakistan from these incompetent no good **** suckers.

 

[Khalids]

Thanking Blain2 agian, if the picture is so clear then what should be done now sould be the question to cosider. Not who did what.

I would suggest a full, free and comprehensive judicial inquiry into the matter, and then indiscriminant punishment for all those who were responsible.

 

[SQ8]

Nothing..
was anything done after 65, 71? and nothing was done after Kargil either. We as a nation in general have turned apathetic towards those who govern us and our rights as citizens to question them. We talk, blame and criticize. But rarely step out to make the difference unless it is another of those leaders who calls us out against another.

 

[Xeric]

Khalids: You need to read the link provided by Agno at post #6. it will help you in without getting you burned.

 

[blain2]

I am not sure what the purpose of a recriminatory body would be? If a commission is setup to look at failure in execution and the fall out from it, or the lack of cohesion between the military and the political sides of the GoP then it would be of benefit to the country. If it turns out to be a witch hunt then it would be to the detriment of the country.

The Kargil operation was not a personal affair. It was conducted to further Pakistan's military position viz India in that sector. The PM and the CoAS were on board together which means that they believed that was the right approach at that time. If they were proven wrong then one should not be re-elected by the public back into the office of the PM and the other should not come back into politics. The ball is in the court of the Pakistani public.

 

[qsaark]

Was Mr. Tufail present in the meeting in which NS was given the briefing?

 

[TruthSeeker]

This account of Sharif/Musharraf actions wrt Kargil is also reported in "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll. N. Sharif went to Washington talk to Bill Clinton about it, before ordering the total PA withdrawal, out of fear over being ousted by a PA coup, and wanting US support. Clinton lambasted him for approving the Kargil action and playing with a nuclear war with India. The US CIA believed that Sharif had approved the action.

 

[qsaark]

This account of Sharif/Musharraf actions wrt Kargil is also reported in "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll. N. Sharif went to Washington talk to Bill Clinton about it, before ordering the total PA withdrawal, out of fear over being ousted by a PA coup, and wanting US support. Clinton lambasted him for approving the Kargil action and playing with a nuclear war with India. The US CIA believed that Sharif had approved the action.

I am not supporting NS but allow me to say that NS was and is a civilian and a civilian with a limited scope and vision as compared to BB who was more enlightened and educated. Hence the responsibility was on the shoulders of the Generals who had chalked up the entire plan. It was their responsibility to 'discuss' (or a better word would be to ‘educate&#8217 the plan in great details with the PM, with his cabinet members especially the foreign and home Ministers and Secretaries. Pakistani ambassadors in various countries also needed to be brought into the loop so they could present Pakistan’s case. Nothing like this happened and as Mr. Qaiser has mentioned, the peculiarities of the plan were only known to the three Generals, and not even the CoAirS, and CoNS were taken into confidence. If CoAirS and CoNS were not taken into confidence, than I seriously doubt NS was briefed adequately. I believe that he was presented with a very rosy scenario so that the three Generals had no problem getting the approval from the PM. At any rate, I clearly support the idea that this matter be thoroughly investigated and the culprits whoever they are must be punished.

 

[chindit]

Nothing..
was anything done after 65, 71? and nothing was done after Kargil either. We as a nation in general have turned apathetic towards those who govern us and our rights as citizens to question them. We talk, blame and criticize. But rarely step out to make the difference unless it is another of those leaders who calls us out against another.

Not regarding 65 , but 71 you guys did have a Hamidur Rahman Report . and I believe things were put in place. Yahya was sacked as was the Army General in charge of PA. So measures were taken in 71 as per my guess.

 

[SQ8]

Measures were shown to be taken.
Not implemented, Since whenever a civilian government starts telling the armed forces that they did wrong and would make the same mistake again. There is a coup.
The mediocrity present in the senior leadership is the cause for Pakistan's recurring military failures.