Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

[Kasrkin]

Means - he wont do it. a confident person will not hesitate to say he will do it all over again.

Perhaps you misunderstood. If he said that he would do it again, given the fact that he still has potential political ambitions, it would’ve caused a huge controversy. The situation between Pakistan and India is not the same as it was before Kargil. He has been, however, asked repeatedly if he regretted the operation, and he has been very clear: not at all.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

My point was that height is the advantage and Pakistan was in advantage military vise but due to Indian propaganda in front of intentional commute that the only reason Pakistan withdraws.

If you think so, fair enough. I agree that heights are a military advantage and Pakistan was at an advantage. But from there our opinions diverge.

What you point for tell me all this.

To make sure that the facts are correct (if I think so). This is an interesting argument.

 

[typewriter]

It doesn't matter who won the brownie points in killing the other's troops by fighting valiantly. The end result is that Kargil was retaken by India partly through military muscle and partly through diplomatic and political pressure. In that effect it was a victory for India & the retreat for Pakistan is considered as a failure of her goals.

The war has taught us that a mere military move, no matter how brilliantly planned and executed, has no place in today's world without proper political support.

btw, I would like to say that many of the Pakistani soldiers fought bravely much like the Indians, but unfortunately had little to show for in the end. Kargil firmly lies on the Indian side, 10 years on.

 

[SQ8]

It doesn't matter who won the brownie points in killing the other's troops by fighting valiantly. The end result is that Kargil was retaken by India partly through military muscle and partly through diplomatic and political pressure. In that effect it was a victory for India & the retreat for Pakistan is considered as a failure of her goals.

The war has taught us that a mere military move, no matter how brilliantly planned and executed, has no place in today's world without proper political support.

btw, I would like to say that many of the Pakistani soldiers fought bravely much like the Indians, but unfortunately had little to show for in the end. Kargil firmly lies on the Indian side, 10 years on.

And that gentlemen is the reality. A waste of manpower due to the usual ambitious and delusional general.

 

[SQ8]

Infact..
There is no better example in the entire world than the Pakistan Army for the following saying:
"Nowhere else have I seen such lions led by such lambs. "

 

[Rajkumar]

can somebody enlighten me
1. what were the objectives of kargil, i mean land? publicize the kashmir issue? or ?

2. what were the assumption made by Pakistan about kargil.
did they think India will not react?
us will support the quickly ?
chance of plebiscite in Kashmir will increase?

 

[typewriter]

can somebody enlighten me
1. what were the objectives of kargil, i mean land? publicize the kashmir issue? or ?

2. what were the assumption made by Pakistan about kargil.
did they think India will not react?
us will support the quickly ?
chance of plebiscite in Kashmir will increase?

1. It is hard to say exactly what the stated objectives were, since a public (an unbiased one specifically) has not come from Pakistan. However, it is assumed that the idea was to rekindle the armed struggle and by taking the vantage area of Kargil heights, almost cut indian troops in siachen, thereby perhaps use it as a possible bargaining chip to restore parity in the area.

2. Naive assumptions made by Pak planners were that India would either react much like iin '65 op. gibraltar starting a full scale war, perhaps gambling that they could win the war with USA support and China's as well. The other assumption would have been to take it to UN and state the conditions by highlighting Kargil. Exactly what they thought is a mystery since the objectives of the war itself is confusing.

If you ask me I don't know why they started the kargil infiltration in the first place without a plan. I assume they didn't even have a plan B. They must have been smug with their A plan they could have patted themselves on the bag and started the conflict.

 

[Joe Shearer]

<snip>

Thankyou very much sir.

But on a second thought, thanks but no thanks.


Is it necessary that such things be reciprocated? Is there a rule or law about this?

BTW, it might we true that we wanted to do the same thing but we couldnt find a gallant from the other side.

Dear Sir,

I am writing this more in sorrow than in anger, especially as you were among those kind enough to be welcoming me on this forum.

Your post cited above was very disappointing; I never thought to see such sentiments expressed by a serving officer, which I believe you are. Never before, in dozens of interactions with military men from both Pakistan and India, have I heard this sentiment expressed, that there is no 'law' regarding the honour and respect that fighting men have for each other.

You are perfectly correct of course, there is no law, this will not stand in court. I was not aware that the lawyers guided our conduct, or rather the conduct of some of us, in these matters; I stand corrected. However, I believe that I can speak for my compatriots who are still in service in Indian military units when I say that Indian officers and men will continue to respect and acknowledge acts of bravery and courage, even when the brave and courageous are their opponents. This has been our standard, and has led in the past to numerous citations of Pakistani soldiers and officers, leading to their decorationi, and it continues to be so.

It is my earnest and sincere hope that this will always be so.

May I take this opportunity of acknowledging the outstanding courage shown by Capt. Kernal Sher Khan? This thread is after all about his courage and gallantry, and not the intrusion of legal sophistry into matters of honour.

With respectful regards,

'Joe S.'

 

[Joe Shearer]

May I note in public my sincere thanks for the detailed information made available by Kasrkin? 'The truth will make us free'.

Thank you, Sir.

 

[Rajkumar]

1. It is hard to say exactly what the stated objectives were, since a public (an unbiased one specifically) has not come from Pakistan. However, it is assumed that the idea was to rekindle the armed struggle and by taking the vantage area of Kargil heights, almost cut indian troops in siachen, thereby perhaps use it as a possible bargaining chip to restore parity in the area.

2. Naive assumptions made by Pak planners were that India would either react much like iin '65 op. gibraltar starting a full scale war, perhaps gambling that they could win the war with USA support and China's as well. The other assumption would have been to take it to UN and state the conditions by highlighting Kargil. Exactly what they thought is a mystery since the objectives of the war itself is confusing.

If you ask me I don't know why they started the kargil infiltration in the first place without a plan. I assume they didn't even have a plan B. They must have been smug with their A plan they could have patted themselves on the bag and started the conflict.

i agree with most but i think they presumed too much without back up plan?wrong speculations led them no where.

 

[Khajur]

1. It is hard to say exactly what the stated objectives were, since a public (an unbiased one specifically) has not come from Pakistan. However, it is assumed that the idea was to rekindle the armed struggle and by taking the vantage area of Kargil heights, almost cut indian troops in siachen, thereby perhaps use it as a possible bargaining chip to restore parity in the area.

2. Naive assumptions made by Pak planners were that India would either react much like iin '65 op. gibraltar starting a full scale war, perhaps gambling that they could win the war with USA support and China's as well. The other assumption would have been to take it to UN and state the conditions by highlighting Kargil. Exactly what they thought is a mystery since the objectives of the war itself is confusing.

If you ask me I don't know why they started the kargil infiltration in the first place without a plan. I assume they didn't even have a plan B. They must have been smug with their A plan they could have patted themselves on the bag and started the conflict.

I think they made their move with certain assumptions on which they too were confused but hoped things'll go their way anyhow, forcing india to go backfoot on kashmir and pakistan would make the next confident step depending on a favourable outcome.

Gen musharraf made the mistake of taking a war game plan which always ends with major military victory if played inside war rooms of GHQ berift of X factors that usually come in to play once a war ensues and showed it daylight of the real battle field which resulted in so many dead bodies.

Anyway Kargil was clear victory for Gen musharraf personally and he was self promoted to post the of president of pakistan and ruled it for nearly nine yrs with an iron fist.He couldnt have asked for any better outcome of kargil conflict,could he??

I'm sure Gen musharraf considers anyone who think kargil was a military blunder as pure imbeciles as deep inside his heart he knows Kargil turned very nicely for him...it gave him a place in history which many retired generals would only dream about.

 

[Xeric]

Dear Sir,

I am writing this more in sorrow than in anger, especially as you were among those kind enough to be welcoming me on this forum.

Your post cited above was very disappointing; I never thought to see such sentiments expressed by a serving officer, which I believe you are. Never before, in dozens of interactions with military men from both Pakistan and India, have I heard this sentiment expressed, that there is no 'law' regarding the honour and respect that fighting men have for each other.

You are perfectly correct of course, there is no law, this will not stand in court. I was not aware that the lawyers guided our conduct, or rather the conduct of some of us, in these matters; I stand corrected. However, I believe that I can speak for my compatriots who are still in service in Indian military units when I say that Indian officers and men will continue to respect and acknowledge acts of bravery and courage, even when the brave and courageous are their opponents. This has been our standard, and has led in the past to numerous citations of Pakistani soldiers and officers, leading to their decorationi, and it continues to be so.

It is my earnest and sincere hope that this will always be so.

May I take this opportunity of acknowledging the outstanding courage shown by Capt. Kernal Sher Khan? This thread is after all about his courage and gallantry, and not the intrusion of legal sophistry into matters of honour.

With respectful regards,

'Joe S.'

Ok.

Let's not get carried away bu emotions.

An indian member on this forum contacted me via PM over the Siachen issue and if you can find who he was he might tell you what i have written in reply about the indian soldiers. Being a soldier i respect enemy the most, provided the respect is reciprocated. i would take into account the Saichen case study while saying this that, Pakistan and india are facing similar hardships at Siachen are fighting there with determination, zeal and motivation. But if someone is going to talk stupid, he would be replied in the same coins. An example can be: (quote from an indian site about Siachen said by a senior indian officer) "We have the heights," said Brig. P. C. Katoch, who runs the operation. In contrast with the superior vista those heights afford, he said, the Pakistani soldier sees nothing: "He hears a helicopter and shoots. He hears artillery and shoots. It's stupid. He doesn't know where he's shooting."

Now if this is the understanding that a senior army officer has of mountain warfare and he ridicules the other side just because he hold 2 may be 3 more higher grounds then who is to be blamed if someone shows him the right path? (sorry for bringing in Siachen here again but that was just an example)

As for your concern regarding honoring your soldiers, a true soldier always honors the other soldier. Provided he proves himself to be a soldier and not a politician. i can quote you another example here, during '65 war a tank unit of ours was advancing when it cleared up a position held by the indians, the indians lost the battle and were mostly dead or were leaving the area, but there was on indian soldier who was a Machine Gunner and was still sitting in his worn out half filled trench and firing at the approaching tanks. While the tank advance stopped to re-organize, a Lieutenant of our saw that soldier from his tank, no one but one indian soldier with an MG stood in their way. The advance then resumed and the brave soldier ketp standing at his position and never fled, he kept on firing but in vain as he was firing on tanks, and ultimately he was ran over by the tanks. Guess what his body was returned back to india by the CO of that tank regiment and the GoI was told about his bravery in full, and the brave soul was awarded with some military award which i dont remember exactly now.

But if someone would accuse us of torturing your soldier the response that you have quoted above would be repeated frequently. i dont accept blames, sorry for that!!

And please if you find yourself so compelled to reply me please open a new thread or PM me without ruining the current thread.

 

[Renegade]

Tortured!?
i mean we were at war, we were not fighting in Kashmir or Siachen where stalemate exits and you can raid posts, take POWs and then torture them as you have lots of time at your disposal. Kargil was fluid battle, people were killed and they got killed, why would we waste time in torturing an indian?

So you mean to say - FAST PACED WAR = NO TORTURE. Bravo!!!

BTW, this is the property shown by the indians quite a few times now, remember back in the 90s when one of our Rangers Jawan was abducted right on the border and tortured like hell? i can quote you another example but i dont know how mauch it is known in the public so to be safe i'll omit it.

Again only allegations & accusations but no proof. While i don't absolutely negate the possibility of something like this happening, the lack of any proof to substantiate these allegations, make them highly unbelievable.

Thankyou very much sir.

But on a second thought, thanks but no thanks.

Oh i see, this seems to have bruised your ego. But then there is no need to get it in the middle here.

What the IA did was to simply recommend someone for a an award, which in their opinion he richly deserved. Lets leave it at that shall we.

Is it necessary that such things be reciprocated? Is there a rule or law about this?

No necessary at all. Its not the question of reciprocation or doing someone a favor, it about professionalism. The same professionalism amongst the worlds armies that lead to the rise of the Geneva conventions. What the IA did in recommending Col.Sher Khan was professional work, they did not bother to wait if the PA reciprocated.

BTW, it might we true that we wanted to do the same thing but we couldnt find a gallant from the other side.

Oh seriously!!

Duh..!?
When did this happened?

If it would have happened the morale of the Army in general and NLI Regiment in particular have gone down the drain, but you dont see that happening actually, do you?

Yes the morale of the soldiers from the NLI did indeed go down the drain, it was one of the reasons that they where made a regular regiment of the PA.

BTW, i guess you missed all the programs, functions and ceremonies that were held to honor the martyrs.

Let me remind you that, all these functions & ceremonies where held much after the end of the Kargil war, by this time the participation of the NLI was nothing but an open secret with only the PA denying that. These ceremonies where held only after pressure mounted on the GoP in general and the PA in specific over the raw deal given to the soldiers from the NLI.

i am not aware of any torture that took place on our side, but what i know is that dead bodies of indian troops have been laying in open for days and days and they rot as no one from both the side was able to get to them, as they were laying in the No Man's Land and the repeated attacks by the IA made it impossible to pick up the dead bodies, moreover, no one from your side also never tried to reach them and they were left to rot!! i know people who say that they have to change the position of their Posts as there was such smell in the air that one could not have possibly lived because the bodies ******* in open and no one approach them due to fire!! Your video link doeant work, sorry to say this but may be he was one of them.

Just cheeked, the video link is working just fine.

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/58607/cj-takes-on-india-pak-govts-over-torture-of-kargil-hero.html

 

[Renegade]

Why not? The accuracy of one claim does not inevitably mean credibility of another. If I were to say that Indian people are brave people, but they&#8217;re savages, would that make me a balanced or credible person? Ofcourse not. What if I asked you to accept that they&#8217;re savages or that they&#8217;re not brave? Well, that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re doing. Why the hell should I accept they're either unbrave or dishonorable? There is no credibility to your beliefs in this regard.

Playing around with words now are we.

xeric, don't address his false claims of 'torture', etc. They've been addressed in the thread I linked. If he wishes he can continue the debate from there, if he has any credible substance that is. We will not allow this thread about Kernal Sher Khan to host insinuations against the Pakistan Army.

Your post no 190 in the link provided, states a so called news article from India Today, but you have very conveniently chosen not to mention the date of the edition or any other details about that particular issue.

1. Please provide the date of issue of the particular edition so that the veracity of your claims can be verified.

2. Unless such details are provided, your claims cant be taken seriously.

 

[Kasrkin]

Here you go Renegade:

&#8216;Kargil War: Battlefront&#8217;, Harinder Baweja, India Today, 12 July 1999.

I await your acknowledgment.

Now its my turn to ask for some verification.

Yes the morale of the soldiers from the NLI did indeed go down the drain, it was one of the reasons that they where made a regular regiment of the PA.

These ceremonies where held only after pressure mounted on the GoP in general and the PA in specific over the raw deal given to the soldiers from the NLI.

I suggest you relate some sources for these dramatic and aggressive claims. Pakistani sources would be preferable, but neutral sources would do as well.