Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

[Zob]

main kutte ki ma ka doodh pr jaonga !!!

 

[Nihat]

How can India clams military victory when Pakistani troop withdraw. Pakistani withdrawal is possible because of crying in front of international commute.

Diplomatic preasure aside , another teeny-tiny reason for Pakistani troop withdrawal maybe that had they not stepped back they would have been flushed out in due time .

After losing Tiger hill to IA , it was only ever a matter of time.

 

[sergente rehan]

Its a lie that pak govt knew nothing about the kargil war.

Nawaz sharif was just as responsible as musharraf. He was informed about the whole plan. A big liar. A pak airforce pilot recently revealed that.

Thank god he's no longer in power

Hey James Bond how did you get all these classified informations? did Nawaz Sharif or Mr. Musharraf revealed you all this stuff? anyway if you give us some links to the news maybe all that you claimed get some credibility...

 

[sergente rehan]

Diplomatic preasure aside , another teeny-tiny reason for Pakistani troop withdrawal maybe that had they not stepped back they would have been flushed out in due time .

After losing Tiger hill to IA , it was only ever a matter of time.

on which base you claim all this? first of all are you a military expert? Everything is possible during a war scenario....

 

[pakomar]

Diplomatic preasure aside , another teeny-tiny reason for Pakistani troop withdrawal maybe that had they not stepped back they would have been flushed out in due time .

After losing Tiger hill to IA , it was only ever a matter of time.

In Pakistan case time was the problem we were not given time.

Brave Pakistani men fought in kargil were trained in guerilla warfare.In guerilla warfare only thing they have is time a lots and lots and lots of time, in kargil case these men were given the time needed to finished the job.

 

[Zob]

i don't understand we have the height advantage and you claim your bofors were killing us....secondly we had gruellia type platoons on top of the hills...that are hard to target and destroy....just for your information the biggest damage was dome by the IAF and that too thanx to israel for giving the targetting pods on time...

before you open your mouth to say stuff that you saw in the movies like BORDER please come up with an argument....i can't make an argument for you...

 

[Shiji]

Lalak Jan "The Hero Of The NLI"

Tiger Hill had been occupied by 11 men of 12 NLI (Northern Light Infantry) unit of the Pakistan Army. One of these men was Subedar Sikander, the person who was responsible, with 10 other men, to hold back India's offensive long enough to force the Division at Siachen to retreat. His 2IC (Second in Command) was Havaldar Major Lalak "Blizzard" Jan (Blizzard = Dohat in local language).
Lalak Jan was one of the best in the NLI as far as mountain navigation was concerned, in addition to being one of the best, if not the best, rifleman.
The 10 men of 12 NLI were told by Subedar Sikander to change their positions while firing back at the attacking Indian forces. As the men followed the orders, the managed to bluff the Indians into believing that the size of the force was much more than 11.
On 1st of July, 1999, the 18 Grenadiers Battalion (India) launched a fierce attack on Tiger Hill by virtue of artillary shelling of the occupied bunkers. Subedar Sikandar placed his men in such positions that they managed to repulse the attack without any loss of life on their own part. It is not known how many men were lost by the 18 Grenadiers Battalion.
On the morning of 2nd July 1999, amidst the mist, the 18 Grenadiers launched another attack on Tiger Hills. Subedar Sikandar ordered his men to retreat to a secret bunker. Once the men were safe, he ordered Lalak Jan to descend Tiger Hill, and amidst the Indian Artillery shelling plant the landmines in the area in front of the Indians. The impossibility of the task was realized by all, but the Subedar insisted that the army has sent them down to fight, and that they would have to complete this task if they were to make a dent in the Indian offensive. Planting the landmines was the only way for them to damage the Indian armor and artillery, as none of the 11 men of 12 NLI had any heavy weaponry. The Subedar insisted that the mist would help Lalak Jan as well, and the Indians would not be expecting it either.
Accepting the daunting task, Lalak Jan descended Tiger Hills amidst the mist. The remaining men gave him as fierce a cover as possible to distract the Indians. Lalak Jan used his natural mountaineering ability to the fullest in the snow clad area and planted the landmines in such a manner that the Indians would encounter them in case they tried to move forward towards the hill.
Lalak Jan returned, having successfully planted the mines as ordered.
The trap was now set. All that the men required to do now was to lure the Indians into it. Subedar Sikandar told his men to gradually reduce the firing to a standstill.
About two hours after firing ceased from the Pakistan side, the Indians thought that they had managed to clear the area of the insurgents. Hence they began to move forward. The landmines reeked havoc with their initial forward movements. The Indians suffered heavy casualties, however, as they have not publicized this incident, the exact amount of damage is not known. The damage was in any case, severe enough that 18 Grenadiers did not attack Tiger Hills for at least 3 to 4 more days, until they were supported by another Indian Unit, 8 Sikh.
On 6th July, both 18 Grenadiers and 8 Sikh attacked Tiger Hills in the fiercest of Tiger Hill battles or the Kargil Operation. This time Chemical weapons were also used. Some of the Indian soldiers launched an attack from the steeper side of the hill. The NLI was not expecting an attack from this side. The NLI fought this battle at a heavy cost. 7 of the 11 men were killed, including Subedar Sikander. The Indians had managed to destroy a number of the Tiger Hill bunkers by either a hand to hand fight or by dropping a grenade into it.
Only Lalak Jan and 3 other men remained. The onslaught of the Indians was continuing and they were rapidly advancing towards capturing the hill. Lalak Jan, who was now the senior most person around, placed his men in strategic positions, at least two to three per person, and told them to fire without staying in one position. These four men, pitted against an enemy much superior in number and weaponry, managed to repulse the Indian onslaught by sheer courage and determination.
On 7th July 1999, 18 Grenadiers and 8 Sikh launched yet another offensive. This was a successful attack. 2 of Lalak Jan's men were killed. Lalak Jan and his only other remaining comrade in arms, Bakhmal Jan were both seriously injured. Not giving up, Lalak Jan got hold of an LMG and while Bakhmal Jan provided him with the ammunition, the two men kept trying to repulse the Indian attack. Lalak jan's left arm had been rendered useless as he had received a bullet in it. Bakhmal Jan, unable to sustain his injuries, died while supplying the ammunition to Lalak Jan.
From there on, in one of the most stunning demonstrations of determination, Lalak Jan held up the two units of the Indian Army for four complete hours. The Indian offensive finally slowed down and they descended Tiger Hills. The reason for this is not known, perhaps they thought that they could shell the bunker in which Lalak Jan was positioned.
After the Indian offensive had subsided, reinforcements (5 to 6 men) were sent to Tiger Hill under Captain Amer. When he saw the condition of Lalak Jan he told him to go back to the base camp as his arm was in no condition to be used. Lalak Jan told the captain that he did not want to die on a hospital bed, but would rather die in the battlefield. He told his Captain that he should not worry about the arm.
While this was going on at the hill, the Indians started shelling from a secret bunker in an adjacent hill. By that time the command of the handful of troops at Tiger Hill had been taken up by Captain Amer. He realized that the fire was coming from a secret bunker and also directed fire towards it, but the effort was in vain. The exact reason for the failure of this fire by the Pakistanis is not known. It could have been because of one of three reasons 1) The secret bunker was very well designed and protected by the Indians 2) the fire was not directed properly or 3) the bunker was not in the range of the light weaponry possessed by the Pakistanis atop Tiger Hill.
There was only one way left to counter the secret Indian bunker; it had to be blown up from a closer range.
When the injured Lalak Jan volunteered for the mission, his plea was immediately rejected by the captain, who was of the opinion that he would do it himself. However, Lalak Jan persuaded him, giving him his previous landmine installation experience coupled with his mountaineering skills as the explanation.
The Captain agreed.
Lalak Jan put a bag of explosives on his back, and while shouldering an AK-47 descended Tiger Hills for the second time amidst heavy Indian shelling. Managing to avoid being seen by the Indian forces, and utilising his knowledge of the hills to take cover, he located the secret bunker and threw the explosives inside the bunker.
The bunker, which was also an ammunition dump, blew up in what was probably the biggest blast of the entire Kargil Operation. Lalak Jan managed to take cover, but the Indian Army lost 19 to 20 men inside and nearby the bunker. The other Indian soldiers saw Lalk Jan and opened fire on him. Surrounded from all sides by Indian fire, Lalak Jan tried to resist and returned fire.
This effort was in vain, and Lalak Jan was killed when a number of bullets burst through his chest.
Contrary to what most writers have said on the topic in Pakistan, it is my own knowledge that the Indians did manage to capture Tiger Hills in the next attack. The loss of Tiger Hills was perhaps the biggest setback in the entire Kargil Operation, as after that other victories came for the Indians and they managed to get hold of perhaps the strategically most important peak from whether they could keep an eye on most of the offensives in the region.
On 15th of September 1999, the commanding officer of 12 NLI sent 2 commando forces to Tiger Hills to recover the body of Lalak Jan. The two forces were called 'Ababeel' and 'Uqaab'. Ababeel provided the fire cover while Uqaab went into the destroyed enemy bunker to retrieve the body of Lalak Jan.
When his body was found, Lalak Jan had his AK-47 clinched to his chest. The Government of Pakistan awarded him Nishan-e-Haider, the country's highest award for extraordinary gallantry.

Only 11 Men were able to hold the IA, so much that they resorted to use the Airforce. And Pakistani men were NOT left behind

 

[qsaark]

Lalak Jan "The Hero Of The NLI"

Only 11 Men were able to hold the IA, so much that they resorted to use the Airforce. And Pakistani men were NOT left behind

They (Pakistanis) had the advantage of being on the height. It has little to do with personal courage and more with the terrain. Soldiers on both the side fought gallantly and will always be remembered for their professionalism and sacrifices.

 

[pakomar]

Battle resemble of kargil with ww2 battle of Mont casino.
Germans got the height advantages. First Allied force want to capture Mont casino by foot when they failed then they carpet boomed the Mont casino and still they can n t capture Mont casino. Germans killed 90000 of fifth army alone and total casualties of allied were 100000. At the end German Para troopers were order to withdraw.
Even the allied forces agreed that the German Para trooper were never beaten.

details
Battle of Monte Cassino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ironman]

Lalak Jan "The Hero Of The NLI"

Only 11 Men were able to hold the IA, so much that they resorted to use the Airforce. And Pakistani men were NOT left behind

Are you blind?? or purposefully left the note by the author?? anyway I am posting the note .

by Nasir M. Khan

Note: The following account is a well researched work by the author. It is not endorsed by the Governments of either India or Pakistan. Pakistan government denies that it had any involvement in the Kargil Operation, whereas the Indian government denies that any heroic battle took place at Tiger Hill. The reader is to read this article as the work of an individual and not an official citation. The reader also has the right NOT to believe this article. However, the article has been put up primarily becuase in the political game between Pakistan and India, a man who was the epitome of bravery is not getting due respect. The locations in this article are those which are claimed as true by India only.

 

[chindit]

Due respect to that men of valor website - the articles have been debunked - or rather rightly classified - as "history fiction" - i.e taking real events and then weaving a story about it. For example Captain Karnal Sher Khan Shaheed, Nishan-e-Haider

This page has several lines of first person dialogue

"Counter Attack", replied Sher

The stunned man gazed at Sher. Counter Attack under the circumstances was suicidal. The Indians had an advantage in every thinkable manner. They had also been fortifying their defense ever since they had taken the Western Spur.

"Counter Attack?", the man asked Sher again.

"Yes counter attack. The Indians attacked my post at night, with heavy artillery and air support. I will attack them in broad daylight with the men that I have left."

..............




Anticipating a company sized attack, the CO was stunned to see one man, reciting the Kalima aloud, charging towards the center of the camp.

"Come out cowards!" Captain Sher shouted having reached the center, "I will show you how to fight a battle".

Angered by the dare inside their own camp, two Sikh soldiers tried to attack Sher. Their attack was of no avail; the captain, who had started firing in their direction the moment they tried to move, killed both.

It was apparent that this was not an attack by a complete company, but by only one man. "You are surrounded from all sides " the CO shouted to Sher, "There are no men with you. You cannot possibly kill us all. There does not have to be any unnecessary bloodshed. Lay down your weapon and Surrender".

Sher fired in the direction of the Commanding Officer's voice. "I would rather die than to surrender to you" he said. While trying to continue firing, Sher realized that the ammunition in his machine gun had finished.

Seeing that he no longer had any ammunition, the Indian soldiers, including their CO, came out in the open and showed Sher that he was indeed surrounded from all sides. They started moving closer and closer to him, tightening their circle around him.

"Look around yourself" he said to Sher, "There is nothing more that you can do".

Seriously - there is no record from the indian side or the pakistan side that this dialogue-baazi took place.

 

[fatman17]

India agreed to discuss Kashmir only due to Kargil: Musharraf

Terming Kargil as a "big success", former Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has said India agreed to discuss Kashmir only because of that war in 1999. "Yes, indeed, it was a big success because it had (an) impact even on the attitudes of the Indian side. How did we start discussing the Kashmir dispute? How was it that the Indians agreed that we will discuss Kashmir and there must be a negotiated settlement? Before this there was no such thing at all," Musharraf said in an interview to Karan Thapar in his Devil's Advocate programme.

Making a strong defence of the controversial Kargil Operation, he said before that "Kashmir couldn't be spoken. Kashmir must not be mentioned even in United Nation's speeches by our leaders. This was the Indian side. (So) how did the Indians come on the negotiating table on Kashmir?" On asked whether he would repeat the Kargil Operation, knowing that it ended up raising question marks about him personally, Musharraf replied: "I don't want to comment". He also accepted that forces from the Pakistani Army's Rawalpindi Corps and Force Command Northern Areas were involved in the Kargil Operation – contradictory to the country's earlier claim that Kargil was conducted by alleged freedom fighters and the army was not involved.

As written in his book "In the Line of Fire", he said, they were "second line forces" but accepted they were commanded by the army's Rawalpindi Corps and FCNA. "What I have written is final. I am not going to get into the details at all," Musharraf said. Claiming the Kargil Operation ended with Pakistani forces in a "very favourable" position, he said "Because if you are talking about India-Pakistan, Indians had moved all their forces against Kargil and there was (as a result) weakness elsewhere. "So we knew what the Indian forces are capable (of) and what we are capable (of)...the situation was very favourable in Kargil, in Kashmir and on the entire border. We were capable of responding to any Indian action," he said.

Asked why he left the decision to Nawaz Sharif and didn't argue against a ceasefire, he said, "One, there was a ground military position, the other is that there was a lot happening internationally. Internationally there was the United States element putting a lot of pressure on the government to stop or whatever. "And then there was the (domestic) political pressure. Whether the political situation was good enough to sustain that pressure. I, therefore, decided to only talk of the military (situation)," he said.

The former president said even though his decision to dismiss the Chief Justice was absolutely constitutional and legal, the handling of the situation was "shabby". "I don't blame myself because I don't get into the nitty gritty of which Deputy Superintendent of Police was rude to him, some cars were taken (away) or something of that sort. Now I am not passing such orders at all," Musharraf said.

 

[chindit]

Musharraf replied: "I don't want to comment".

Means - he wont do it. a confident person will not hesitate to say he will do it all over again.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Battle resemble of kargil with ww2 battle of Mont casino.
Germans got the height advantages. First Allied force want to capture Mont casino by foot when they failed then they carpet boomed the Mont casino and still they can n t capture Mont casino. Germans killed 90000 of fifth army alone and total casualties of allied were 100000. At the end German Para troopers were order to withdraw.
Even the allied forces agreed that the German Para trooper were never beaten.

details
Battle of Monte Cassino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki says that Fifth Army had 90,000 casualties; which is not the same as killed. Big difference. Based on what I have read of that campaign, one tenth to one fifth is probably the right number of dead.

I was just reading a great book on the WWII Italian campaign, The Day Of Battle by Rick Atkinson (excellent writer BTW) where he speaks of, among other things, Cassino.

The Germans were in pretty bad shape themselves; when they were ordered to withdraw they were close to being decimated, out of support and supplies.

Interesting that the Allies bombed the heck out of Cassino, only to have the move backfire.

 

[pakomar]

Wiki says that Fifth Army had 90,000 casualties; which is not the same as killed. Big difference. Based on what I have read of that campaign, one tenth to one fifth is probably the right number of dead.

I was just reading a great book on the WWII Italian campaign, The Day Of Battle by Rick Atkinson (excellent writer BTW) where he speaks of, among other things, Cassino.

The Germans were in pretty bad shape themselves; when they were ordered to withdraw they were close to being decimated, out of support and supplies.

Interesting that the Allies bombed the heck out of Cassino, only to have the move backfire.

My point was that height is the advantage and Pakistan was in advantage military vise but due to Indian propaganda in front of intentional commute that the only reason Pakistan withdraws.

What you point for tell me all this.