Karakorum - 8 (K-8) | Jet Trainer Aircraft.

[Bossman]

Incorrect. PAC does not need to make screws. PAC does not need to do casting. PAC does not need to make rubber seals and gaskets. PAC does not need to make lights. I can go on for paragraphs like this. These can be very easily made by private sector.

So why is the private sector not doing it? Are you saying the airforce is discouraging vendors? If HIT and POF can have vendors why not PAC?

 

[JamD]

So why is the private sector not doing it. Are you saying the airforce is discouraging vendors? If HIT and POF can have vendors why not PAC?

The problem with the military mindset regarding the private sector in Pakistan is that no one wants to invest in R&D required to develop modern weapons systems. Military mantra for the private sector is NO COST NO OBLIGATION BASIS which essentially means you do it at your cost while we think about buying it or not. This convoluted thinking by military planners is the single reason why the many major capable companies in Pakistan refrain from supporting the defence set ups. Anyone having any doubts regarding Pakistan private sector ability should read Usman Ansari’s latest article in Defence News (also posted on this forum). No country in the world can develop its private sector for defence production until such time the Military actually invests in the proposed programs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I know you have Quwa but have you thought of writing an opinion piece on Dawn or other Pakistani newspapers making these arguments?

I'd rather stay away from Dawn. Dawn is fighting a dogmatic war. I just want to directly talk with our decision makers and change their minds.

 

[Falcon26]

I'd rather stay away from Dawn. Dawn is fighting a dogmatic war. I just want to directly talk with our decision makers and change their minds.

I agree. Dawn was just one example; not sure if they have competitors. It’s sad how it has transformed itself into such a pathetic paper.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I agree. Dawn was just one example; not sure if they have competitors. It’s sad how it has transformed itself into such a pathetic paper.

If I had the money, I'd start a direct competitor and drive them out of town. I've been dreaming about creating a Pakistani equivalent of the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg. I can always start it out as a small blog, but that's not the right approach for a genuine national/international newspaper.

 

[Yasser76]

If I had the money, I'd start a direct competitor and drive them out of town. I've been dreaming about creating a Pakistani equivalent of the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg. I can always start it out as a small blog, but that's not the right approach for a genuine national/international newspaper.

Bold move, you should follow your ambition. Online digital advertising model is difficult to get right, but Quwa seems to have the right "Freemium" model of some free content and advertising coupled with subscriptions to read in depth. You look across the border and a lot of clowns like Vishnu Som or Shiv Aroor make good money out of fooling ignorant Indians into thinking they know what they are talking about.

My advice is carry on creating unique content and even offering free services to the likes of Al Jeezera/BBC/Janes then linking to your blog, get a Programmatic ad model going and eventually, over time, the advertising should start giving you enough revenue to expand. Of course all the above assumes you can spare time from your day job if you have one.

Keep up the good work

 

[Falcon26]

If I had the money, I'd start a direct competitor and drive them out of town. I've been dreaming about creating a Pakistani equivalent of the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg. I can always start it out as a small blog, but that's not the right approach for a genuine national/international newspaper.

Great idea. What do you think of the Business Recorder? It seems like a Pakistani equivalent of the WSJ.

Are you familiar with Uzair Younus? He has a good YouTube program that tackles aspects of Pakistan’s political economy. You should consider him as a way to go mainstream. I am a keen subscriber of your blog and I think the points you raise are timely, powerful and pertinent.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1279497033150332929

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Great idea. What do you think of the Business Recorder? It seems like a Pakistani equivalent of the WSJ.

Are you familiar with Uzair Younus? He has a good YouTube program that tackles aspects of Pakistan’s political economy. You should consider him as a way to go mainstream. I am a keen subscriber of your blog and I think the points you raise are timely, powerful and pertinent.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1279497033150332929

I like their stuff. That's what scares me. The good publishers are not given anywhere near the same 'support' as the likes of Dawn. Even a persona-non-gratta like Ayesha Siddiqua somehow gets more screen-time Lol.

 

[Falcon26]

I like their stuff. That's what scares me. The good publishers are not given anywhere near the same 'support' as the likes of Dawn. Even a persona-non-gratta like Ayesha Siddiqua somehow gets more screen-time Lol.

Indeed. Dawn is able to market itself as a savior of Pakistan’s press and gets international coverage for this purposes. The other papers are small and serve niche audience.

 

[denel]

Please don’t lean on Bilal to defend your lack of information and knowledge. I appreciate what Bilal does but he is hardly an expert either. Picking bits and pieces from the internet and rehashing it and calling it an expert article does not make one an expert. He has very little knowledge of the reality on the ground. The problem with these forums is that it gets a lot of second generation emigrants who think that simply by the virtue of living in the west they know better and are quick to put down anything Pakistani.

Lets go back to the topic of private sector involvement in the defense production. Institutions like HIT and POF have significant sub contracting to civilian firms. This is because Pakistani auto component manufacturing industry including foundries, forges and machining are relatively developed and can undertake such subcontracting. A lot of components for the Alkhalid and T series tanks as well as the M series APCs are supplied by private sector vendors. In addition there are private sector firms supplying fuses, bomb and shell casings and other stuff to POF. Almost all vehicles including specialized vehicles are provided by the private sector.

The issue with PAC is that there are maybe one or two private sector firms which can produce high precision aviation grade components hence little or involvement of the private sector in the aviation sector. There is hardly any civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan.

Now let’s focus on public sector companies like People’s Steel Mill (makes specialized alloys including for tank barrel blanks), Heavy Mechanical Complex, Karachi Ship Yard, NRTC, Pakistan Machine Tools. They were either closed or working under capacity. They were revived by transferring them to the Strategic Projects Division (a subset of the nuclear program) and in case of Karachi ship yard to the Navy and all of these firm are now close to full capacity utilization and profitability.

I will add little interesting personal story here. Many years ago I was helping a friend run a small foundry making tractors parts. One day a naval officer showed up with the business end of a Torpedo in his Suzuki 800 car and asked us if we could replicate it. We tried but we couldn’t do it.

I am not saying that private sector should not be involved. I am all for it. What I am saying don’t be quick in passing judgment without understanding the history and the situation. Nobody is putting anyone on a pedestal but don’t make ill informed statements and take credit away where it is due.

There is no evidence that involvement of the military in industrial projects has impacted its operational preparedness specially the Air Force. infact it could be to the contrary if we compare it with India’s defense production model.

Also a lot of high tech design and development for the aviation sector is done by NESCOM and not by PAC.

Even if all the components are in place it will take multiple decades before a significant private sector aviation industry can be created in Pakistan. The Air Force is not discouraging it. In fact it has taken steps to encourage it.

Well, if 30 years of solid design and ground breaking works under my belt which are the foundation for many technology offspins that are in use world wide in military and civilian technologies - not to mention in your Mirages, H2/H4 etc. 2 PhDs and finishing a 3rd one - I guess my experience is nothing then .
Cheers.

I can't speak for Bilal but let me assure you I am not any kind of immigrant and have lived my entire life in Pakistan (not that I need to convince you of that).


Incorrect. PAC does not need to make screws. PAC does not need to do casting. PAC does not need to make rubber seals and gaskets. PAC does not need to make lights. I can go on for paragraphs like this. These can be very easily made by private sector.


Super incorrect. I am one example (but again I don't need to convince you of anything). There are more civilian aeronautical engineers in Pakistan than can be employed. Otherwise, all my colleagues would have jobs. I PERSONALLY know around 300 civilian aerospace engineers. What do you think places like IST have been producing since 2002???


Let's not compare to India. I can compare to Republic of Congo. Compare to Turkey and see what that analysis gets you.


And your point is NESCOM buys from private sector? Or am I missing the point here?



Yes exactly. You need to start 30 years ago. We still haven't started.



They say they are. A lot of people say a lot of things. But have they put in policies that materialize what they're saying? I haven't seen anything, have you?


If that is the argument then we shouldn't claim "has taken steps to encourage it". Then we should say we are not interested in creating an industry, end of story. Of course we've seen how foreign powers have had us by the gonads because we are forced to buy weapons from them, but apparently that doesn't threaten our national interests because "I buy shiny weapon now".

Well noted.

You had said about engineers coming to South Africa. I will tell you how your army brass has been stealing... yes stealing scholarships in field of geology and mining technologies - around 40+ were in Wits university. I was shocked to learn when i was there to visit another academic colleague. Turns out most are over 50yrs old. The scholarships purpose was to build and assist with the geology and mining knowledge base. So, my question was where are the youngsters from Pak universities? Instead we see these pot bellied folks with their wives living on stipend. My colleague said to me bluntly, this is what was posted by the dean of geology - the response from the consulate - 'there were no other better candidates'. You must be flipping joking with me.

If you do not believe it, go to Wits dept and see for yourself. Between attending lectures or claiming to be studying, most are using the consulate as a conduit to get items to be sold without incurring taxes.

 

[Bossman]

Well, if 30 years of solid design and ground breaking works under my belt which are the foundation for many technology offspins that are in use world wide in military and civilian technologies - not to mention in your Mirages, H2/H4 etc. 2 PhDs and finishing a 3rd one - I guess my experience is nothing then .
Cheers.

.

First of all I don’t take anyone on face value on the internet. You might very well be the king of the Zulus. I have no way of knowing. Anybody can bullshit on the internet. In any case I was not questioning your personal qualifications but rather your knowledge of Pakistan.

I am not even sure about your story about senior military guys stealing scholarships specially for mining. I know how distribution of scholarships works in Pakistan through HEC. If you are what you say who you are you should emigrate or come and work for the PAF as there is no future for you in South Africa. BTW there is no Pakistani consulate in Johannesburg, where Wit U is situated.

 

[denel]

First of all I don’t take anyone on face value on the internet. You might very well be the king of the Zulus. I have no way of knowing. Anybody can bullshit on the internet. In any case I was not questioning your personal qualifications but rather your knowledge of Pakistan.

I am not even sure about your story about senior military guys stealing scholarships specially for mining. I know how distribution of scholarships works in Pakistan through HEC. If you are what you say who you are you should emigrate or come and work for the PAF as there is no future for you in South Africa. BTW there is no Pakistani consulate in Johannesburg, where Wit U is situated.

Well, i suggest you check them here at Wits U; there are around 20+ still hanging around. They live in flats around the university. My knowledge of Pak is limited to what i know from my late friend M.Amin who did two books on Pak. I did want to come and visit but your consulate is so stupid - same application lay there for several days; they made me come down 2 times but it remained where it was - sitting on the same place on the desk.

I was questioning why you kept of referring to PAF not PAC; my point was you needed to have client/supplier relationship and allow independent organisations out of the clutches of these dodo brainers. Just look at Egypt - complete rot across the entire country for decades - exactly the same scenario.

Well done... yes consulate is in Pretoria. Pretoria is around 60km from Wits.

If you would care to probe HEC and ask why those scholarships were stolen that will be very enlightening.

We have digressed enough from the thread, no further discussion.
Cheers

 

[Bossman]

Are you talking about Shahid Amin. He wrote books on Pakistan history and foreign affairs. Reading two books does not make you an expert. Secondly for a person with such high qualifications you have a lot of time to spend on a forum frequented by teenagers, retirees and wannabes. My point is very simple. The current situation where PAF have very high level of involvement in PAC is not ideal, however under Pakistan conditions what little development we have seen in the aviation industry, we would not have seen. Corporatization is the future and some work is already being done in this regard. Go read up on GIDS and the way it’s fronts some entities under NESCOM.

Secondly stop abusing them. It just makes you sound and look stupid. What is your personal issue with them? I know a number of South African engineers were working for the PAF. Maybe be they hired someone else and not you hence your frustration and bad mouthing.

 

[Bossman]

Well, i suggest you check them here at Wits U; there are around 20+ still hanging around. They live in flats around the university. My knowledge of Pak is limited to what i know from my late friend M.Amin who did two books on Pak. I did want to come and visit but your consulate is so stupid - same application lay there for several days; they made me come down 2 times but it remained where it was - sitting on the same place on the desk.

I was questioning why you kept of referring to PAF not PAC; my point was you needed to have client/supplier relationship and allow independent organisations out of the clutches of these dodo brainers. Just look at Egypt - complete rot across the entire country for decades - exactly the same scenario.

Well done... yes consulate is in Pretoria. Pretoria is around 60km from Wits.

If you would care to probe HEC and ask why those scholarships were stolen that will be very enlightening.

We have digressed enough from the thread, no further discussion.
Cheers

I checked no record of South African scholarships for Pakistani students. BTW what is your area of research? I thinking you are BSing.

Also if you need a good example of Defense production dominated by academics just look at India and at HAL and DRDO. A lot of innovative research but mostly failed projects with no takers. From Arjun to Insas to Tejas to Rustom.

 

[Chak Bamu]

First of all I don’t take anyone on face value on the internet. You might very well be the king of the Zulus. I have no way of knowing. Anybody can bullshit on the internet. In any case I was not questioning your personal qualifications but rather your knowledge of Pakistan.

I am not even sure about your story about senior military guys stealing scholarships specially for mining. I know how distribution of scholarships works in Pakistan through HEC. If you are what you say who you are you should emigrate or come and work for the PAF as there is no future for you in South Africa. BTW there is no Pakistani consulate in Johannesburg, where Wit U is situated.

Content is the sole determinant of quality & respect. I do not know why you are so badly triggered about @denel that you are prepared to abuse like this.

I've seen army majors & captains on overseas scholarships. Of the half dozen or so people (most being pot-bellyed) whom I saw pursuing PhDs, only Dr. Shoaib (a captain back then) did anything particularly worthwhile with his education. If it were up to me, I would bar any officer beyond Captain's rank from pursuing a PhD at Army & govt's expense. A Major would have to be exceptional to merit a PhD scholarship in a relevant field. No Colonels.