Just a thought.

[Je suis de retour]

when did UN take up Punjab as disputed ??

No, if it wasnt Kashmir, you guys would have taken ferozpur in punjab (indian) as issue, since it was muslim dominated. And again all those fights

 

[Iggy]

i think they supported khalistan movement because they wanted damage india, not because they wanted panjab. i still believe that kashmir is the sole tension point between these 2 countries.

Mate in the end both countries wanted to damage each other..its the reality..If it is not Kashmir then we will find something else ..as VS Doc pointed out religion is one of the factor..

 

[Iggy]

but partition happend between pakistan and bangladesh as well, they are doing OK with each other nowdays.

Thats because they dont have any border to share..and also Muslim brotherhood..How can they fight each other when we lies between them??

 

[Ahmad]

Mate in the end both countries wanted to damage each other..its the reality..If it is not Kashmir then we will find something else ..as VS Doc pointed out religion is one of the factor..

india is supposed to be secular, and how about your huge muslim population?

 

[Ahmad]

Thats because they dont have any border to share..and also Muslim brotherhood..How can they fight each other when we lies between them??

well, if you want to seek a bad relationship with somebody, having borders is not necessary, look at the US and the taliban.

 

[su-47]

No i think Kashmir is the main issue. Partition happened, but after partition, so much tension would not have happened if Kashmir issue wasn't there. Partition was filled with hate, but its Kashmir that fuels the hatred now. Was it not for Kashmir, there wouldn't have been any real reason for animosity between India and Pakistan.

I dont agree with vsdoc that its a Hindu-Muslim thing. Remember, Bangladesh was also 'partitioned away' from India, but we haven't fought a war with them since they broke away from Pakistan. While there is some animosity between India and Bangladesh on certain issues, war is an incredibly unlikely scenario. Also, we have very good relations with almost all nations in the Islamic world.

The reason India and Pakistan are still enemies is because of Kashmir. If Kashmir wasn't there, the only reason for us to be enemies would be if both grow into real powers and contest over other things, like regional hegemony.

 

[Gentle Typhoon]

I dont agree with your conclusion vsdoc, 300 years back we Hindus were hunted, raped and killed, and we were treated like door mat. Our blood was considered cheaper than water. Sikh Guru martyred in Delhi by Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Sikhs responsible for saving the Hindu's, who were being persecuted by the Mughals. But we continue to harrass the Sikhs, our own Hindu daughter attacked Golden temple in 1984 (not against operation but why she choose Sikh holy day for attack ?) and genocide of Sikhs that took place in Delhi by State government. Why Sikhs forced to marry under Hindu Marriage act ? The problem we majority Hindu's is that we people think of Sikhs as Muslims/Khalistanis when they ask for their rights. This is definitely a basic right. I don't follow any religion (born Hindu) but I am aware that Sikhism instructs to treat women equally as men.

In Punjab, Sikhs n Hindu's have great unity, infact elder son in Hindu family is Gursikh but situation is very sad outside Punjab. Bollywood is hell bent on to suppressing Sikhism. Its rascism not entertainment.

We Indians are living in a pathetic lifestyle and false notions. I am Punjabi Hindu, but more closer to Sikhs living in Punjab than Hindu's in South India. I have spent 2 years in Pune, 1 year in Bidar (Karnatka) before I came to this verdict !!!

In my book, Indira was no less than Zia and Hitler.

Living in peace and increasing prosperity in secular India.

A secularism and tolerance that comes naturally to the Hindu way of life and has done so down the millenia.

It is a hindu muslim thing brother. And I say it as one who belongs to neither.

I am not very good at history so I may be wrong but I see India as a unique case in world history, specifically the history that deals with Islamic conquests of nations.

Unlike other nations that became comletely Islamic post their invasion by muslim invaders, India never did. It resisted. It absorbed. It internalised.

It Indianised.

To the extent that the significant majority of Hindu India never converted or changed faith. Yet found space and a special place for those who did. In peace and harmony. As brothers.

In no other land of the world would you otherwise see such a large muslim population living and coexisting in peace side by side with a huge population belonging to another religion.

Can you name me one case?

So the bottom line is, those that still harbored that "conqueror" mindset and somehow saw themselves as different and "superior" to the rest of the non-muslim population, could not stomach the fact that the British screwed things up for them by taking over largely Muslim ruled India and leaving it to its future fate as a democratically and secularly ruled multi-cultural pluralist India with the Hindus in natural majority.

Sharing never entered their mindset. Only exclusivity at the cost of carving up the land for a pure muslim state did.

But make no mistake Jonasad. It was plain and simple power politics of the vote-bank type fuelled by lofty ideals of muslim identity, seovereignty, survival, and separate nation for separate people jingoism.

Cheers, Doc

 

[EjazR]

Well IMO the basis of the partition itself was one of the gravest injury to peace in the subcontinent. If India had been divided in terms of ethnicities or linguistics, then so much strife would not have occurred. And that is why an interfaith dialouge is a much needed tool imo as part of the peace process. Indian muslims do conduct with the hel of their Hindu and Christian counterparts but on an India-Pakistan level as well would be helpful. Where we can have Pakistani muslim, hindu sikh andchristian leaders have an interfaith dialouge with their Indian counterparts.

The millions of people on both sides and infact around the world want to live in peace and all major world religions speak of communal harmony. However, the political use of religion has resulted in what Reza Aslan in his insightful book calls Cosmic "Wars".
A cosmic war is a religious war. It is a battle not between armies or nations, but between the forces of good and evil.
These Wars that are in the minds of even the educated people be they muslims christians, hindus or jews. Their worldview is shaped around a historic battle of good(which is themselves) vs evil ( which is anything in THEIR mind the 'other'). Now the people who think this are in the minority, but can hold powerful lobby positions in govt.s at times. Hence you have the neo-cons in the US. You most definitely have similar types in the Pakistani establishment stregthned thanks to the Zia era and similarly in India as well.

Somtimes, you have the vulgar street violence as an offshoot of this as shown by AQ, Hizb HuJI, Abhina Bharat, e.t.c. where people are proudly killing innocent people because they believe that they are in a cosmic war against evil. It doesn't matter ifthey are killing innocents because they are fighting "evil". And they are avenging the opression done to them be it to somone across the globe are soemthing that happened 100s of years ago. Now there is no way toconvince people who truly believe this otherwise.

The only way forward is to empower the people who donot believe this BS. For example, theUS under Obama took a step in the right direction by stripping of an Islam related terminology and declaring AQ as a plain crimnal network and a terrorist orgainisation. The same has to be done here in the India-Pakistan context.

Cosmic warriors are plenty in both India and Pakistan. But peaceful relations are quite achievable. As many commentators have indicated including Musharraf, water has become a more important issue for Pakistanis than Kashmir and KAshmir is now being linked to the water issue to sustains support. Again water is a secular problem and has nothing to do with religion.

So leave the cosmic war to the cosmic warriors as there will be no end to it. The govt. and the majority of the people on both sides should move to mariginalise these people and reduce people being drawn to it. And as Reza Aslan says, the only way to win aCosmic war is to refuse to fight in one.
-------
Btw, its a must read book, highly recommended: How to Win a Cosmic War

 

[vsdoc]

I dont agree with your conclusion vsdoc

I'm confused by your post brother. What part of what I have said do you not agree with? And why?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Iggy]

india is supposed to be secular, and how about your huge muslim population?

Whats the use when only one country is secular..Otherside still treat you as a Hindu nation

 

[Ahmad]

Whats the use when only one country is secular..Otherside still treat as a Hindu nation

forget about what people call you.

 

[EjazR]

forget about what people call you.

That is true Ahmed but it does take two hands to clap. A section in the Pakistani establablishment would love nothingmore than India declaring itself a Hindu nation.

For example, it was JI founder Maududi who said that he would be fine with India treating its muslims as second classs citizens. Shockingly Dr. Israr Ahmed said the same as well very recently (around 2005 i think) and as you know Jamaat Islami has a powerful lobby in Pakistan.

 

[dabong1]

Actually Kashmir is just an issue after that there will be Punjab and other states and so on..

Dont think so!

 

[Ahmad]

That is true Ahmed but it does take two hands to clap. A section in the Pakistani establablishment would love nothingmore than India declaring itself a Hindu nation.

when it comes to india/pakistan relationship, i never take one's or another's side. you both have your faults and also arguments. but i personally strongly believe that if Kashmir was not there, the chances of these 2 countries would have been very great to be friends.

 

[dabong1]

I dont agree with your conclusion vsdoc, 300 years back we Hindus were hunted, raped and killed, and we were treated like door mat. Our blood was considered cheaper than water. Sikh Guru martyred in Delhi by Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb. Sikhs responsible for saving the Hindu's, who were being persecuted by the Mughals. But we continue to harrass the Sikhs, our own Hindu daughter attacked Golden temple in 1984 (not against operation but why she choose Sikh holy day for attack ?) and genocide of Sikhs that took place in Delhi by State government. Why Sikhs forced to marry under Hindu Marriage act ? The problem we majority Hindu's is that we people think of Sikhs as Muslims/Khalistanis when they ask for their rights. This is definitely a basic right. I don't follow any religion (born Hindu) but I am aware that Sikhism instructs to treat women equally as men.

In Punjab, Sikhs n Hindu's have great unity, infact elder son in Hindu family is Gursikh but situation is very sad outside Punjab. Bollywood is hell bent on to suppressing Sikhism. Its rascism not entertainment.

We Indians are living in a pathetic lifestyle and false notions. I am Punjabi Hindu, but more closer to Sikhs living in Punjab than Hindu's in South India. I have spent 2 years in Pune, 1 year in Bidar (Karnatka) before I came to this verdict !!!

In my book, Indira was no less than Zia and Hitler.

Are you really an indian?