Junk HTT-40 programme and fix intermediate jet trainer (IJT) : IAF tells HA

[Ashoka The Great]

Upset with the huge delay in development of an indigenous basic trainer aircraft (BTA), the IAF has now formally asked the defence ministry to approve its acquisition case for 37 more Swiss Pilatus PC-7 to add to the 75 such planes already ordered for Rs 2,896 crore last year.

Defence PSU, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), however, is up in arms over this proposal. The indigenous aircraft manufacturer holds its under-development BTA, called HTT-40, will prove to be cheaper than the Swiss aircraft in the long run.
But IAF is not convinced about HAL delivering the aircraft either in time or in a cost- effective manner. “As per our calculations, each HTT-40 will be costlier than the Pilatus by Rs 2 crore-Rs 5 crore,” said an IAF source.

The force, in fact, wants HAL to “junk” its HTT-40 programme and instead “fully concentrate” on the development of the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT), which has already been in the making for over a decade but is nowhere near becoming operational.

Amid the ongoing bitter tussle, which the MoD will eventually have to resolve, the fate of rookie pilots being taught the intricacies of combat flying hangs in balance. Faced with a huge shortage in trainer aircraft, IAF has for long projected a requirement of 181 BTA, 85 IJTs and 106 advanced jet trainers (AJTs) for Stage-I, II and III training.

The question of advanced training is already settled with India progressively inducting 123 British Hawk AJTs contracted in an overall project worth Rs 16,000 crore.

IAF went in for Pilatus after its training schedules went for a toss after the entire fleet of the 114 ageing piston-engine HPT-32 aircraft, that long served as the BTA, was grounded in August 2009 after a crash killed the pilot.

The equally obsolete 80 Kiran Mark-II aircraft are being used for both Stage-I and Stage-II training. “We will stretch Kiran for Stage-II training till 2014-2015. HAL should get the IJT ready by then. Otherwise, we will be forced to send some batches abroad for intermediate training,” said the source.

IAF hopes to begin its first course on the Pilatus trainers in July, by when it would have received 14 of them. The force wants to ramp up the training for each fighter pilot to 254 hours, with the first 65 on Pilatus, 82 on IJTs and 107 on Hawks. Over 39% of the 1,010 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970, after all, have been attributed to “human error (aircrew)”, which is often the result of inadequate training. “Technical defects”, caused by ageing machines and shoddy maintenance, is the other equally big killer.

Junk HTT-40 programme and fix intermediate jet trainer (IJT) : IAF tells HAL | idrw.org

 

[indian_foxhound]

IAF hopes to begin its first course on the Pilatus
trainers in July--> good news

 

[Ashoka The Great]

I agree with IAF's decision. HAL should focus on IJT instead of wasting time and money on HTT-40. We already have Pilatus PC-7 for the job. Why is HAL protesting against IAFs request for buying 37 additional Pilatus PC-7? There arn't any plans for buying more such jets in future, are there?

 

[anant_s]

for those who have seen selection procedure for IAF pilots, would agree with the fact that after one of the most stringent battery of tests, a rookie pilot is selected. Now if such a pilot is lost owing to poor training facility, the country looses more than a flying hardware piece costing some million dollars.
IAF as a customer is fully justified in its frustration and anger shown against HAL. In case of a war, HAL will not defend airspace, IAF will and if it means buying hardware to suit its requirement, it must be given full freedom to do so.
There already has been a discussion on IAF resorting to 2 stage training program and thereby avoiding the need for IJT as well.
HAL should now ponder why IAF should remain a hostage to its whims and fancies.

I agree with IAF's decision. HAL should focus on IJT instead of wasting time and money on HTT-40. We already have Pilatus PC-7 for the job. Why is HAL protesting against IAFs request for buying 37 additional Pilatus PC-7? There arn't any plans for buying more such jets in future, are there?

Fully agree.

PC-7 is a propeller driven trainer.

 

[MilSpec]

I agree with IAF's decision. HAL should focus on IJT instead of wasting time and money on HTT-40. We already have Pilatus PC-7 for the job. Why is HAL protesting against IAFs request for buying 37 additional Pilatus PC-7? There arn't any plans for buying more such jets in future, are there?

PC7 is a turbo prop and not a jet, HAL already manufactures Garrett TPE331 engine which among others powers the PC6 and is comparable to PT6 engine that powers the pilatus pc7. I suspect IAF's claim of HTT40 being more expensive is false, this reeks of foreign vendor syndrome... as far as number, I suspect there is a need more more than 37 units!!

 

[MilSpec]

for those who have seen selection procedure for IAF pilots, would agree with the fact that after one of the most stringent battery of tests, a rookie pilot is selected. Now if such a pilot is lost owing to poor training facility, the country looses more than a flying hardware piece costing some million dollars.
IAF as a customer is fully justified in its frustration and anger shown against HAL. In case of a war, HAL will not defend airspace, IAF will and if it means buying hardware to suit its requirement, it must be given full freedom to do so.
There already has been a discussion on IAF resorting to 2 stage training program and thereby avoiding the need for IJT as well.
HAL should now ponder why IAF should remain a hostage to its whims and fancies.

One wonders, why even keep such an evil organization like HAL alive, why not just buy everything "IAF" needs from foreign vendors propped up by the retired air air-chiefs and IAF staffers... Only if perceptions were as black and white, world would be much simpler.

 

[selvan33]

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd forces cost cut in Swiss Pilatus trainer jet deal

Hard bargaining by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) over billing costs of maintenance transfer of technology (MToT) has helped India strike a better deal with Swiss plane manufacturer Pilatus Aircraft Ltd. for the 75 basic trainer aircraft that will be purchased for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The total value of the deal works out to around $ 1 billion.
According to official documents in the possession of Mail Today, the deal stipulates that spares required for maintenance of the PC-7 Mk-II basic trainer aircraft should be sourced from Pilatus. However, HAL after an in-depth comparison study, found that prices for these spares being quoted by the Swiss company were too high. Pilatus has agreed to adjust the higher cost of spares against the price of the aircraft following objections raised by HAL.
HAL had benchmarked the Pilatus proposal with earlier deals that India struck for the British Hawk advance trainer aircraft, and Jaguar and Mirage fighter jets. It found that the MToT proposal submitted by Pilatus for engine and airframe maintenance was much more limited in scope than the earlier deals and would lead to a sharp increase in costs in the long run.
The outri ght purchase of aircraft by IAF includes spares and training. IAF will be getting three simulators of the aircraft under the main deal.
Pilatus also left the maintenance of the simulators, which were supposed to have been provided along with the planes for budding pilots, outside the scope of the MToT proposal. It had stated that the maintenance requirement of the simulators will be addressed through a separate arrangement between the IAF and Pilatus. HAL had redflagged this issue.
Besides, one flight-worthy engine was required to be provided by IAF for training and test cell correlation but this had been left out of the scope of the MToT proposal submitted by Pilatus.
Sources revealed that the deal had to be delayed in order to address the flaws in the proposal pinpointed by HAL. There was serious concern that these issues could later come under the scrutiny of the Comptroller and Auditor General of India and lead to an embarrassing situation for the defence ministry.
A senior IAF officer told Mail Today that the contract negotiation committee for the purchase of 75 aircraft has now completed deliberations with the Swiss vendor with active participation of HAL and two general managers from the public sector company have signed the final document. He said cognisance was taken of some points raised by HAL during interim discussions - particularly the issue of engine spares cost proposed by the Swiss company being higher compared to similar projects handled by it - and it has been adjusted in the final price offered.
The officer added that HAL has to sign a separate maintenance contract with the company which could be finalised after the main deal for the purchase of aircraft is cleared. HAL has not given the list of what it wants in terms of design requirements, he added further. There are issues beyond MToT which HAL is looking to get into like designs for advanced structural activities. It has been agreed to incorporate the design dispensation in the cost, IAF disclosed.


Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd forces cost cut in Swiss Pilatus trainer jet deal : India, News - India Today

 

[MilSpec]

^^hmmm... above article almost shows HAL in a good light......Thats rare (almost taboo)

 

[Capt.Popeye]

PC7 is a turbo prop and not a jet, HAL already manufactures Garrett TPE331 engine which among others powers the PC6 and is comparable to PT6 engine that powers the pilatus pc7. I suspect IAF's claim of HTT40 being more expensive is false, this reeks of foreign vendor syndrome... as far as number, I suspect there is a need more more than 37 units!!

Sandy; the IAF's stance even if unjustified on grounds that you claim; does not change anything. Is that GOTTDAMNED HTT-40 flying? The Pilatus PC7 is. That is the only thing that matters, for gottsakes !!

Has the IJT been sorted out yet? NO!! So what TF is HAL is BSing us about.
Let the HAL fix problems on existing projects first then talk in the effing air. If the wish they can work on the HTT-40 and make it fly (with their own funds, mind you) then they can work on the "Battlestar Galactica" for all that I care.

In the menwhile, let the IAF get its PC7 trainers and keep praying for the IJT!!!

 

[Yogi]

PC7 is a turbo prop and not a jet, HAL already manufactures Garrett TPE331 engine which among others powers the PC6 and is comparable to PT6 engine that powers the pilatus pc7. I suspect IAF's claim of HTT40 being more expensive is false, this reeks of foreign vendor syndrome... as far as number, I suspect there is a need more more than 37 units!!

The total requirement of IAF for BTA is around 185 while 37 is just an initial follow on.

I think MoDs should give HAL a chance if it can deliver HTT40 by 2014-15.

But i don't see much future for IJT, Sandy what do u thing is the main reason for HAL being struck, is it just the Russian engine or something more???

 

[sancho]

PC7 is a turbo prop and not a jet, HAL already manufactures Garrett TPE331 engine which among others powers the PC6 and is comparable to PT6 engine that powers the pilatus pc7. I suspect IAF's claim of HTT40 being more expensive is false, this reeks of foreign vendor syndrome... as far as number, I suspect there is a need more more than 37 units!!

Yes there is, but if IAF orders 37 more Pilatus trainers, the possible order for HTTs would be reduced to 71, which inreases the costs again. That's most likely why HAL came up with a revised bid now, otherwise there chances for any HTT40 procurement might be gone.
However, even if the HTT 40 is offered slightly cheaper, I find it surprising why it is only "slightly" cheaper? HAL stated in recent reports that only 2 parts of the trainer are not indigenously procured. What makes the HTT 40 then nearly as costly than a similar trainer, produced in Europe, with 100% foreign parts? Where is the cost benefit of producing in India?

Lets be honest here, with the huge technical problems of the former HAL basic trainer, which is the cause why a sudden replacement was needed at all and the constant problems of IJT, I fully can understand that IAF currently don't put much hope in HAL trainers and prefer the safe option with more Pilatus trainers.
That's why I also share the point, that HAL needs to prove itself here with getting the IJT done, before further talks about a future project should be done.

 

[janon]

Yes there is, but if IAF orders 37 more Pilatus trainers, the possible order for HTTs would be reducted to 71, which inreases the costs again. That's most likely why HAL came up with a revised bid now, otherwise there chances for any HTT40 procurement might be gone.
However, even if the HTT 40 is offered slightly cheaper, I find it surprising why it is only "slightly" cheaper? HAL stated in recent reports that only 2 parts of the trainer are not indigenously procured. What makes the HTT 40 then nearly as costly than a similar trainer, produced in Europe, with 100% foreign parts? Where is the cost benefit of producing in India?
Lets be honest here, with the huge technical problems of the former HAL basic trainer, which is the cause why a sudden replacement was needed at all and the constant problems of IJT, I fully can understand that IAF currently don't put much hope in HAL trainers and prefer the safe option with more Pilatus trainers.
That's why I also share the point, that HAL needs to prove itself here with getting the IJT done, before further talks about a future project should be done.

Why do you expect it to be a LOT cheaper? Other than labour costs, everything else costs the same in India, if not more. What percentage of an aircraft's cost is labour? The cheaper labour cost in India will be more than offset by the large volume production run that Pilatus has had so far, and continues to have. The advantage of highly industrialized societies is that they can manufacture more goods cheaper than can be done by lesser industrialized societies. It is a myth that making something in India would be cheaper, when talking about industrial production. Lower labor cost is the ONLY advantage we have. And labour costs are miniscule compared to the other costs, for high tech indsutries like aerospace and military electronics.

As to your question of what the cost benefit is in going for HTT-40 rather than Pilatus - the cost benefit is that the money will be spent in India, and will not go to Switzerland. Taxpayers' money going back to taxpayers. If both aircrafts cost the same, the nation has a big cost benefit in going for the indegenous product. Even if the HAL product is 3 or 4 crores more expensive, I'd say that the "cost" to the nation is lower because 40 crores going into the Indian economy is better than 36 crores going to Switzerland. Indian money being pumped into the Indian economy, that too to the aerospace sector - always better than Indian money being pumped into the Swiss economy, as far as India is concerned.

Of course I am not advocating always going for HAL products. If the product doesn't satisfy the IAF's needs, by all means, buy foreign. If the product is a LOT more expensive, go for the cheaper foreign alternative. But if all that HAL is claiming now is true, that they are ready to produce HTT-40 by 2015, and that it will be of comparable quality, and cheaper (or slightly more expensive as the IAF contends), and that they can develop light attack variants, and satisfy the needs of the IAF and navy in many roles, for a total production volume of 400, I would say go for it.

(I don't know if you read it, but there was an impassioned appeal by HAL that they can not only make HTT-40s comparable to Pilatus PC-9 (not the PC-7 we are buying), but also that they can make it in such a way that they can quickly be fitted with weapons during war, to give them a light attack role. Hundreds of these can be used by army aviation for light attack and reconnaiisance role, and will do the job much cheaper than other expensive air assets. The total combined requirement of the three forces would then be more than 400.)

I think the only real question is whether to trust HAL or not. If the IAF doesn't believe HAL's claims, then the whole issue of costs is irrelevant. If they trust that HAL can actually live up to their claims, then they should purchase HTT-40.

 

[MilSpec]

Sandy; the IAF's stance even if unjustified on grounds that you claim; does not change anything. Is that GOTTDAMNED HTT-40 flying? The Pilatus PC7 is. That is the only thing that matters, for gottsakes !!

Has the IJT been sorted out yet? NO!! So what TF is HAL is BSing us about.
Let the HAL fix problems on existing projects first then talk in the effing air. If the wish they can work on the HTT-40 and make it fly (with their own funds, mind you) then they can work on the "Battlestar Galactica" for all that I care.

In the menwhile, let the IAF get its PC7 trainers and keep praying for the IJT!!!

Capt, I remember in school, I was good at maths but real bad at sanskrit, I tried working on the language but I still struggled, but that one subject wasn't an indicator for my parents to conclude I was a bad student. Similarly one struggling project doesn't attribute the IAF to say fix that and later talk about others. The crux of the matter here is, control system and engine for a prop plane are very simple task of HAL to produce, the garrett tpe331, is already in production and will be adequate to power the system, the beauty of it is that the Indian money stays inside India.

I wonder if the same argument could be used for ADA/DRDO wrt to LCA and AMCA discussion, fix LCA first and then we will provide money for the AMCA. Or fix the Nag ATGM and then we will give you money for rest. I think it is high time that MoD needs to stop treating HAL like a step child.

 

[sancho]

Why do you expect it to be a LOT cheaper? Other than labour costs, everything else costs the same in India, if not more.

Labour cost alone is a big factor, but more importantly the development costs for the trainer alone, but also for it's parts should be cheaper than in Europe. That's why these parts will be outscourced to Asia, why India now gets more importance as a production hub for western manufacturers, or why they set up new R&D facilities here.
Even here in Germany, the main reason why the economy is still going good is, that the labour costs were highly reduced in the laste few years. Germany is one of the lowest in Europe in this regard, which obviously is important when your economy is based on industy and exports.
Add the cheaper costs for energy, transportation, or even to set up production facilities in India, compared to Europe. Btw, that's not only the case for Europe vs Asia, but was even a reason for many European companies to either manufacture in the US, or simply to take cheaper US parts and weapons for their aircraft projects, instead of developing and producing them in Europe (see Saab Gripen).

The cheaper labour cost in India will be more than offset by the large volume production run that Pilatus has had so far, and continues to have.

Pilatus so far has an order of 75, HAL is aiming on the order of 108, which means they provided the costs based on these numbers right? So how should Pilatus have an advantage here? And that also should explain that there is no potential order of 400 trainers for HAL at all.

As to your question of what the cost benefit is in going for HTT-40 rather than Pilatus - the cost benefit is that the money will be spent in India, and will not go to Switzerland. Taxpayers' money going back to taxpayers.

Sorry but that's nonsense, because A, I am talking about the procurement and operational costs and B, the pilatus deal includes offsets too, which means a part of the deal will be diverted to Indian industry again. Also adding a second trainer type with no commonality to the Pilatus, increases IAFs operational and maintenance costs dramatically, which then again the Indian taxpayers has to pay.

Indian money being pumped into the Indian economy, that too to the aerospace sector - always better than Indian money being pumped into the Swiss economy, as far as India is concerned.

And that's the problem, because you see it from the complete wrong perspective! It's not Indian money pumped into Indian economy, but Indian money pumped into Indian denfence!
That's why you have to see it from IAFs point of view and not from HAL and then the facts are:

- HTT 40 is not available and mainly still a paper project
- most of the costs are only estimates and not based on realistic experience through operational service
- there is no guarantee for IAF that HAL can keep the timeline, nor the costs as of now, while Pilatus can
- cost increases by adding 2 different trainers for the same basic training as explained above
- HALs current reputation speaks against it (although I think some of it is hyped for certain reasons)


So when we put the nationalistic bias aside, if the HTT 40 should be interesting for IAF, it must offer either operational advantages, or at least some good cost advantages, to balance the increase of maintenance and logistics, otherwise it's not a useful addition. And we are talking about a trainer here, not a combat fighter, where indigenous radar, avionics and weapons could make an operational difference in war times.

but also that they can make it in such a way that they can quickly be fitted with weapons during war, to give them a light attack role. Hundreds of these can be used by army aviation for light attack and reconnaiisance role, and will do the job much cheaper than other expensive air assets.

As you can see, that's not a big deal either and since IAF operates the trainers, why would we order additional aircrafts for light CAS in IA, instead of simply adding weapons to those of the IAF?

 

[GR!FF!N]

I think IAF must give HAL a chance.it is not the case about follow on 37 trainers,it is going to be a lot(around 181).if it will be a good trainer as HAL is claiming,then IAF shouldn't worry about.I think MOD will give the case in favour of HAL as they are pushing for more "Make" product.and I think HAL should make the aircraft fast try hard for this contract(even if it needs to contest PC-7,they should go for it,just like DRDO did with Arjun tank).

there is no denying that many of the HAL projects runs behind the schedule and IAF's trainers number at critical stage,but this contracts of 37 aircrafts will be only going to be signed around 2014 and will be delivered much much later(as they are going to deliver first batch) and then TOT with which it'll be made in India.so,why get TOT and make it in India when we already got the tech to make this kind of aircraft??