Jinnah's secularism was about pluralism: YLH

[Maula Jatt]

I am glad to know this is understood by contemporary pakistanis what coeval punjabis thought at that time.
There was and is( less numerous now) a section of sikhs that would like to revert the times to the golden rule.

What they probably dont understand is, it's is not possible without overwhelming force, which they dont have.

I think we can all agree punjab partition 8s set in stone, with no reversion path.

way too much PTSD for that- congress or ML leadership or SAD didn't try calming tensions here unlike in Bengal or India proper cause people didn't think it would be as violent as it would be in other places considering the history/ lack their of

but turned out to be the opposite

"as late as November 1945, the Commander of the Indian Army, Field Marshal Claude Auchinleck, predicted that the “principal danger areas (for ethnic (basically religious conflict) conflict) are likely to lie in the United Provinces, Bihar and Bengal”, these having also been the principal areas where religious rioting had taken place in the years leading up to Independence"

modern-day Pakistan region was the most peaceful region for minorities in all of British India before the partition- the idea that Muslims have always hated non-Muslims is wrong, if anything Non-muslim majority region at least under British suffered the most from communal violence, which led to demand for Pakistan in the first place

but yes first to admit that after the partition our parents hated any non-Muslims and Muslim identity became paramount above everything else

 

[DabbuSardar]

way too much PTSD for that

That, and I kinda agree with Jinnah, ways of life and culture are way different for peoples, with no sign of moving to a middle more tolerant path. Sadly all three major religions and customs in this region have shown no signs of becoming any more tolerant, rather the opposite.

Its a closed chapter way I look at it, lets hopefully be respectful and friendly keeping our own separate pieces of this once great land.

 

[-=virus=-]

My point of posting this is cause a lot of people have one-sided views where just Muslim people are ultimate boogeymen which is unfair

Fair enuff, things were a hot mess back then. Also gave me pause to reflect upon my old troll tactic on here where I'd often proclaim Pak Kashmir to not be 'real Kashmir' and called it north Punjab' because (as some Kashmiris friends have told me) they don't speak Koshur over there and that their cuisine varies in that it lacks a lot of what they consider traditional Kashmiri cuisine (earned me many a ban here, that lol)

Shame but, the whole thing.. we should hope we've learnt from the partition, and not just Kashmir, but from the whole debacle that it was, up and down the border.

Overall but, MJ.. I still tend to lean on the side of the line of thought where I still believe all these years post and past those horrors from back then.. k India me Islam has not just survived, but thrived, and continues to.. whereas Pak me toh mostly fully khallas ho gai non Muslims.

Not trying to take any potshots here, only interested in the truth, as you may or may not have read me say many times here that I am very irreligious.. not a full blown atheist and nothing against it, but it is just not something I have too much time for or have interest in tbh.. just not worth my while, the whole thing.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Fair enuff, things were a hot mess back then. Also gave me pause to reflect upon my old troll tactic on here where I'd often proclaim Pak Kashmir to not be 'real Kashmir' and called it north Punjab' because (as some Kashmiris friends have told me) they don't speak Koshur over there and that their cuisine varies in that it lacks a lot of what they consider traditional Kashmiri cuisine (earned me many a ban here, that lol)

Shame but, the whole thing.. we should hope we've learnt from the partition, and not just Kashmir, but from the whole debacle that it was, up and down the border.

Overall but, MJ.. I still tend to lean on the side of the line of thought where I still believe all these years post and past those horrors from back then.. k India me Islam has not just survived, but thrived, and continues to.. whereas Pak me toh mostly fully khallas ho gai non Muslims.

Not trying to take any potshots here, only interested in the truth, as you may or may not have read me say many times here that I am very irreligious.. not a full blown atheist and nothing against it, but it is just not something I have too much time for or have interest in tbh.. just not worth my while, the whole thing.

Please If you read this post you quoted and #31 you'd know the background of how from the least cammunal area in British India, to "khalas" happened and nor was it one sided khalas

Most of my city is victim of this khalas

 

[-=virus=-]

Please If you read this post you quoted and #31 you'd know the background of how from the least cammunal area in British India, to "khalas" happened and nor was it one sided khalas

Agree, our border states, Punjab specifically, got emptied out big time.. Muslims either crossed over or moved further inland to Delhi etc

 

[Maula Jatt]

Agree, our border states, Punjab specifically, got emptied out big time.. Muslims either crossed over or moved further inland to Delhi etc

historical Punjab that includes Haryana, HP- a lot of people are from Haryana too
And in this khalas Muslims suffered more bloodshed too (everyone did, but Muslims by ratio suffered the most- some crazy statistics I saw of 1 out 3 Muslims didn't survive partition travel, considering a good chunk of our population is from partition this is a crazy number, put yourself in our shoes)

But before the partition when native Pakistani Muslims were a majority in their regions- we barely saw any communal violence, to the point we were completely ignored to focus on other regions come partition time as fears of violence there were much higher - after partition yes, it's true our mentality changed due to trauma

 

[SecularNationalist]

The only jarring note was YLH saying "Jinnah was greater than Gandhi"

As a indian this is a bitter pill you can't take.

 

[-=virus=-]

historical Punjab that includes Haryana, HP- a lot of people are from Haryana too
And in this khalas Muslims suffered more bloodshed too (everyone did, but Muslims by ratio suffered the most- some crazy statistics I saw of 1 out 3 Muslims didn't survive partition travel

not surprised, present day Haryana is our kind of hilbilly jaat/gujjar heartland (the gleaming towers of Gurgaon notwithstanding)

I have some stories my mom told me from her childhood, painful ones, about how a very well liked and respected Muslim professor saab and his family was being hunted down in the aftermath of the partition and how the community came together to shelter them from the rabid mobs and helped them on their way to Pakistan. They stayed in touch long after prof saab's passing, in fact, my dad (who wasn't even in the picture back in my ma's childhood) decades later, was in Karachi port on a merchant vessel and Prof saab's son (my mum's and masi's childhood neighbor friends came to visit) .. I understand they're still in touch now, all grown up (obviously) .. koi US me, koi Uk me.. those bonds have persisted. When my Masi's daughter got married, some 15 odd years ago.. there was a party from Pak invited.. cousin had, afterall, married a Muslim.. from Hyderabad, and they had some people over from Pak too.

Can't make this shit up, man.

 

[SaadH]

Highly delusional speech. If Jinnah wanted secularism then there's no better place for south Asian Muslims as the unified secular India. However if Hindus couldn't be trusted than I'm afraid you're either engaging in anti hindu bigotry or secularism is flawed to point that it can't contend with the tyranny of majority.

Lastly if Jinnah truly wanted secularism than that's quite irrelevant since he was a singular individual who was never at any point greater than the will of majority of Pakistanis who want Islam not just now but from the inception of the country.

 

[Zornix]

Highly delusional speech. If Jinnah wanted secularism then there's no better place for south Asian Muslims as the unified secular India. However if Hindus couldn't be trusted than I'm afraid you're either engaging in anti hindu bigotry or secularism is flawed to point that it can't contend with the tyranny of majority.

Lastly if Jinnah truly wanted secularism than that's quite irrelevant since he was a singular individual who was never at any point greater than the will of majority of Pakistanis who want Islam not just now but from the inception of the country.

100% agreed, Jinnah was in no way shape or form a secularist. What kind of "secularist" divides a country on religious lines and creates a separate one in the name of Islam and Muslims? how can a "liberal" praise such a man? A united India would have been possible if Muslims had respect for other religions and gave up the concept of jihad and if Hindus gave up their doctrine of and beliefs of superiority over non Hindus, there would have been no demands for a partition to begin with if that was the case.

 

[Sayfullah]

A Pakistan that is secular does not exist. If secularism is what we follow then I want a separate state for my ethnicity. I see no point in sharing my resources and land to someone who is not my kind.
My only relation with a non Punjabi is because of Islam. IF you remove Islam then I have nothing in common with you and don’t care about you. Islam is the reason I love my Muslim brothers who are from a different ethnicity. Remove Islam then I have no interest in any other ethnicity cuz all I care about is my people.
A secular Pakistan is a Pakistan that does not exist. For Islam we are united and without Islam we have nothing in common and no reason to unite.
If secularism is the ideology then I prefer unity with Punjabis of india and a greater Punjab state one with its historic boundaries. Punjab province in pre 47 form had everything to be self sufficient and prosperous. Hindus are a minority in Punjabis and Muslims are overwhelming majority in Punjabis. A Punjab country with pre 47 borders will not have a Hindutwa problem because Muslims would still be in majority and secularism would mean religion has nothing to do with the state so it doesn’t matter if it’s Hindu or Sikh Punjabi.
BUT for ISLAM I would fight against my own kind I would fight against kaffir Punjabis who dare oppress my muslim brethren in Kashmir. For Islam I would be a muhajir in foreign lands and fight against my own. For Islam I am ready to give up my ethnic identity and my cast/tribe and everything. For Islam I am willing to share my wealth and my peoples wealth with my fellow Muslim brothers. For Islam I am ready to be part of Pakistan even if the conditions are so bad that I have to sleep with nothing over my head and fast everyday. Islam is the reason why I put my nationality before my ethnicity.

Without Islam, I do not want my people to fight against my people on the other side of the border and my people to remain in a state with people I have nothing in common with while a border divides me from my ancestors lands.

Only for Islam am I ready to sacrifice everything and be united with my Muslim brothers even against my own family and people if required.

If Pakistan becomes secular, I want a separate state for Punjabis one that’s united with Punjabis on the other side of the border.
I am sure many other ethnicities want the same and want to be united with their fellow people if we have no real cause.

Either:
Islamic Republic of Pakistan
OR
Secular Republic of Punjab

 

[Vapnope]

@Maula Jatt @SIPRA sb excellent points. Thanks for a refreshing read at pdf.

 

[Goritoes]

I don't like Gandhi ,but in no way Jinnah will come any where close to Gandhi

Of course, Jinnah didn't sleep with his niece naked and abuse women, also Jinnah wasn't racist who thinks black are inferior... You are right Gandhi was an asshole lol

 

[Rollno21]

Of course, Jinnah didn't sleep with his niece naked and abuse women, also Jinnah wasn't racist who thinks black are inferior... You are right Gandhi was an asshole lol

Gandhi might be a d!ck, we are talking about what he was able to achieve.

 

[Goritoes]

Gandhi might be a d!ck, we are talking about what he was able to achieve.

So being a d!ck is not a problem for you ? no wonder you guys support d!cks like Modi lol sorry but we have standards for our leaders.