Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad

[faizahmad]

See the problem is that you and (others like you including on the Indian side) see history only in religious terms. Did you know that Mughals strongest alliance partner where Hindu Rajputs that played a major role in extending their rule across India. Did you know that Muslim Pathans and Punjabis actually revolted against Mughal rule a number of times? Similarly take the example of Shivaji who formed the Maratha empire. He was fighting the Mughals but had a big section of his army comprising of Muslims. The chief of his army and head of his navy were both Muslims (King Shivaji and His Muslim Warriors)

And yes, ofcourse the Mumbai riots and the Gujarat riots are a blot for India. In both cases between 1000-2000 people were killed and in some cases there was collusion by the state machinery. But these are considered as blots and there are cases AND convictions against those involved in the riots. Maybe you don't know but 100s of people have been put in jail for life for multiple killings during the riots.

But is that any different to what the PAkistani Army did in say Bangladesh? How many were court martialed and how many were imprisoned for life for killing their fellow Muslim country men? What about the current situation in FATA and Balochistan?

Even Jinnah wasn't sure about Pakistan and if we are to believe Ayesha Jalal, he never wanted Pakistan in reality. The only problem was he didn't know when to stop when demanding concessions and messed up the end game.


Pakistanis who can see through the painful process of introspection already realise that Jinnah made a mistake. A neutral observer with no emotional investment in Pakistan would say that Maulana Azad was right and Jinnah was wrong. Jinnah's politics is a lesson for those who aspire for religious natianalist politics and how failed policies are created by doing so. Muslims should learn a lesson from this and keep parties like JI and the more crazier ones like Taliban and Hizbut Tahrir at bay because we already have an example of failed politics using a religious nationalist agenda.

I Fully Agree with you ejaz

 

[ice_man]

Even Jinnah wasn't sure about Pakistan and if we are to believe Ayesha Jalal, he never wanted Pakistan in reality. The only problem was he didn't know when to stop when demanding concessions and messed up the end game.


Pakistanis who can see through the painful process of introspection already realise that Jinnah made a mistake. A neutral observer with no emotional investment in Pakistan would say that Maulana Azad was right and Jinnah was wrong. Jinnah's politics is a lesson for those who aspire for religious natianalist politics and how failed policies are created by doing so. Muslims should learn a lesson from this and keep parties like JI and the more crazier ones like Taliban and Hizbut Tahrir at bay because we already have an example of failed politics using a religious nationalist agenda.

EPIC just epic nonsense! i believe the day Kashmir was annexed by hindu india & hyderabad was annexed! the mualana azaad's beliefs were shown to be just too idealistic!

as for Jinnah well the fact that we Pakistanis are mastwers of our own destiny (good or bad) is more than an enough reason for us to be proud and see the far sightedness of our visionary leader!

and as for religious nations well i believe israel is the ultimate example of a religious nation however, i don't see the same approach by indians in condemning them? the reason is simple indian hindu nation can not accept a muslim nation as a reality! since the creation of pakistan it hurts every indian hindu like a thorn in the palm that Pakistan still survives!

as for indian muslims they still WISH & PRAY Pakistan fails so that finally maybe the MISTAKE their forefathers made might seem to be not so much of a MISTAKE!

 

[angeldust]

as for indian muslims they still WISH & PRAY Pakistan fails so that finally maybe the MISTAKE their forefathers made might seem to be not so much of a MISTAKE!

You mean they are STILL praying for MORE?

 

[ice_man]

You mean they are STILL praying for MORE?

people who have no freedom can never realize the pleasures of freedom. good or bad we decide our fate. and why the double standards when it comes to israel?

 

[angeldust]

good or bad we decide our fate.

Really? You mean the current state of your country is what you collectively wished upon it by choice?

 

[ice_man]

Really? You mean the current state of your country is what you collectively wished upon it by choice?

AAAAH dodging the israel question are we now? scared to be exposed as having double standards???

 

[angeldust]

AAAAH dodging the israel question are we now? scared to be exposed as having double standards???

What Israel question? I thought we were discussing Jinnah and Azad, and the decisions of two groups of muslims. Who is vindicated, who not. What about Israel?

 

[ice_man]

What Israel question? I thought we were discussing Jinnah and Azad, and the decisions of two groups of muslims. Who is vindicated, who not. What about Israel?

so clearly you didn't read what i wrote and just ranted! hence no point talking to a lunatic however, if the self proclaimed mualana azaad was so good bangladesh would have joined india & not chosen independence! maulana azaad fooled his followers! FREE MUSLIM NATION is a concept that muslims institutionalised in India would never understand.

just something you can look up in history:

Azad grew disillusioned with Islamic teachings and was inspired by the modern views of Muslim educationalist Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, who had promoted rationalism. Increasingly doubtful of religious dogma, Azad entered a period of self-described "atheism" and "sinfulness" that lasted for almost a decade.

No matter what the situation or condition Pakistanis are glad that they CHOSE Pakistan rather than stay back and be institutionalised in india.

 

[angeldust]

so clearly you didn't read what i wrote and just ranted! hence no point talking to a lunatic however, if the self proclaimed mualana azaad was so good bangladesh would have joined india & not chosen independence! maulana azaad fooled his followers! FREE MUSLIM NATION is a concept that muslims institutionalised in India would never understand.

Bangladesh became Bangladesh and was allowed to remain Bangladesh because it suited India to have it so. I hope you understand that there was not democratic process involved in the aftermath of 1971. That Bangladesh did not want to remain Pakistan put the final nail in the coffin of Jinnah and proved the validity of what Azad predicted. The first and bigger nail being half the muslim population choosing to remain Indian in 1947. So, I repeat, what about Israel?

 

[faizahmad]

You mean they are STILL praying for MORE?

Sorry we do not have any thing to do with pakistan neither we are suffering from any kind of a complex... All I know is we Love our country more than you do ,,, at the end of the day we are 2 differnt nations.. If You are enjoying pleasures of freedom of religion so do we too nothing is stopping us here too.

 

[ice_man]

Bangladesh became Bangladesh and was allowed to remain Bangladesh because it suited India to have it so. I hope you understand that there was not democratic process involved in the aftermath of 1971. That Bangladesh did not want to remain Pakistan put the final nail in the coffin of Jinnah and proved the validity of what Azad predicted. The first and bigger nail being half the muslim population choosing to remain Indian in 1947. So, I repeat, what about Israel?

so basically india decided on fate of bangladesh? besides the agitagtion that was clearly backed by india for personal gains. IF AZAAD was correct the bangladeshis woould have decided that yes jinnah's concept was flawed & a united india was better & would have joined "MUALANA" beliefs but they never did. clearly that was infact the final nail in the coffin of azaad's beliefs! because at the end of the day once a MUSLIM is FREE he will never come back to being institutionalised!

the people who remained in india were SCARED hence never migrated & hence they regret their decision & pray that Pakistan fails so that they can feel better!

now the ISRAEL question:

israel is also made as a religious NATION why aren't the indians condemning that as a nation??? why the double standards?

 

[ice_man]

Sorry we do not have any thing to do with pakistan neither we are suffering from any kind of a complex... All I know is we Love our country more than you do ,,, at the end of the day we are 2 differnt nations.. If You are enjoying pleasures of freedom of religion so do we too nothing is stopping us here too.

i don't blame you for your thinking. the people who are instituionalised never know what FREEDOM really means. for example a child born and raised in prision will never know what the world is like outside the walls.

so yes carry on believing what you do until you experience freedom. If Azaad's unity was such a good concept balgadesh would have rejoined india and admitted they made a mistake and jinnah was wrong. however, they had been freed so they chose to remain free!

 

[angeldust]

so basically india decided on fate of bangladesh? besides the agitagtion that was clearly backed by india for personal gains. IF AZAAD was correct the bangladeshis woould have decided that yes jinnah's concept was flawed & a united india was better & would have joined "MUALANA" beliefs but they never did. clearly that was infact the final nail in the coffin of azaad's beliefs! because at the end of the day once a MUSLIM is FREE he will never come back to being institutionalised!

Why did India need to absorb Bangladesh in 1971? And take into the fold 150 million anti-Hindu "institurionalized" Muslims? When it would be so much easier to keep them isolated and quarantined?

now the ISRAEL question:

israel is also made as a religious NATION why aren't the indians condemning that as a nation??? why the double standards?

I do not speak for India but my personal view is that Israel always belonged to the Jewish people. They are re-claiming what was always theirs. And keeping it by force if and where necessary. Isn't that how a lot of what is now Muslim land the world over was taken originally in the first place? So why the double standards? I'm sure the Palestines would be welcomed back (right of return) if they reverted to their original faith. Without the fear of apostasy either.

 

[ice_man]

Why did India need to absorb Bangladesh in 1971? And take into the fold 150 million anti-Hindu "institurionalized" Muslims? When it would be so much easier to keep them isolated and quarantined?



I do not speak for India but my personal view is that Israel always belonged to the Jewish people. They are re-claiming what was always theirs. And keeping it by force if and where necessary. Isn't that how a lot of what is now Muslim land the world over was taken originally in the first place? So why the double standards? I'm sure the Palestines would be welcomed back (right of return) if the reverted to their original faith. Without the fear of apostasy either.

well no bangladeshi ever came up and say Jinnah made a mistake & we should have hung around with MUALANA did they? & anti hindu bangladesh? do you know bangladesh has hindus minority don't you? the BANGLADESHIS MUSLIMS chose to be master of their own fate THAT my friend is the TRUE IDEA OF PAKISTAN.


so finally your hypocrisy is revealed regarding israel. the israelis can have their land and palistenians can rejoin israel ONLY IF THEY CONVERT TO becoming JEWISH!

what the indian muslims don't realise that Pakistan indirectly safeguards there interest! otherwise you would treat them how you like the israeli jews to treat the palestanian muslims. the EXISTENCE of Pakistan keeps people's IDEOLOGY LIKE YOUR's in check!

Palestanians RULED the holy land until the jews were FORCEFULLY put there so that the muslims & jews fight each other while the christians progress.

your stand on jewish state clearly exposes your hate for muslims.

 

[angeldust]

well no bangladeshi ever came up and say Jinnah made a mistake & we should have hung around with MUALANA did they? & anti hindu bangladesh? do you know bangladesh has hindus minority don't you? the BANGLADESHIS MUSLIMS chose to be master of their own fate THAT my friend is the TRUE IDEA OF PAKISTAN.

Bangladesh was too far gone by 1971. 24 years of poison is a long time. Had it happened earlier, maybe India would have taken it back into her fold. As things stand now, we would like to keep them confined to their borders. Strategically, it makes no difference. Something Pakistan has for long looked at Afghanistan as.

So finally your hypocrisy is revealed regarding israel. the israelis can have their land and palistenians can rejoin israel ONLY IF THEY CONVERT TO becoming JEWISH!

what the indian muslims don't realise that Pakistan indirectly safeguards there interest! otherwise you would treat them how you like the israeli jews to treat the palestanian muslims. the EXISTENCE of Pakistan keeps people's IDEOLOGY LIKE YOUR's in check!

Palestanians RULED the holy land until the jews were FORCEFULLY put there so that the muslims & jews fight each other while the christians progress.

your stand on jewish state clearly exposes your hate for muslims.

Well, I don't know about hypocrisy, but what should one call it when a Muslim laments about someone being forced out of their own land and asked to convert by force? The Jews are re-taking what was always theirs. They want a Jewish state. They do not have an issue with the natives being there as long as the re-vert. Is that so alien a concept for you?