Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad

[rubyjackass]

You are correct that the indian hindus didn't feel he was visionary & hence put road blocks in his way & are responsible for the massacre that followed.

Jinnah wanted an easy and relaxed partition however, with the threat of British walking out anytime & congressman annxeaing the whole of the subcontinent Jinnah gave in and took whatever land he was left. sadly if the british hadn't rushed & nehru & patil weren't in bed with the british the partition could have been easy and no ill feelings would have existed on either side.

Don't you understand?! Yes, many Indians(should I say British-Indians?) did not take Jinnah to be a visionary, including Muslims who ended up on both sides of border(Azad and Frontier Gandhi are two). If there was no partition in the first place, why would there be any bloodshed? As I said earlier, Jinnah was asking for too much with too less leverage. He did not like muslims to live under a Hindu majority but expected Sindhi and Punjabi non-muslims to live under a muslim majority. You don't need to be a genius to smell hypocrisy in it. Obviously the non-muslims were going to ask out of Pakistan and Congress would support them. He was basically forcing partition and expecting others to not take any political counter-measures. How wise is this?

And you complain that Nehru and Patel were in bed with British?! This is outrageous! Jinnah wouldn't have earned a cent of land if the British did not favor him. He was their trump in countering Congress, especially during 'Quit India' when the whole country was protesting against British rule. Jinnah gladly let them use him as long as they gave him a seat at the table. I do not think this is immoral or anything, it was after all his strategy. But you are acting like you know nothing about your Quaid. That is unfair to him and his efforts. You have to own whatever he did to achieve Pakistan.

 

[Slayer786]

Don't you understand?! Yes, many Indians(should I say British-Indians?) did not take Jinnah to be a visionary, including Muslims who ended up on both sides of border(Azad and Frontier Gandhi are two). If there was no partition in the first place, why would there be any bloodshed? As I said earlier, Jinnah was asking for too much with too less leverage. He did not like muslims to live under a Hindu majority but expected Sindhi and Punjabi non-muslims to live under a muslim majority. You don't need to be a genius to smell hypocrisy in it. Obviously the non-muslims were going to ask out of Pakistan and Congress would support them. He was basically forcing partition and expecting others to not take any political counter-measures. How wise is this?

And you complain that Nehru and Patel were in bed with British?! This is outrageous! Jinnah wouldn't have earned a cent of land if the British did not favor him. He was their trump in countering Congress, especially during 'Quit India' when the whole country was protesting against British rule. Jinnah gladly let them use him as long as they gave him a seat at the table. I do not think this is immoral or anything, it was after all his strategy. But you are acting like you know nothing about your Quaid. That is unfair to him and his efforts. You have to own whatever he did to achieve Pakistan.

Nehru was having an affair with Mountbatten's wife, and Mountbatten knew and didnt mind(sick fellow). He was expecting favours in return ad gave Nehru what he wanted.
Now we can argue our points till the cows come home, but no one will agreeon each other's points.
Suffice to say that we in Pakistan are glad that partiton took place and we are not ruled by Hindus. You indus shouldbe happy that tere are very few muslims left otherwise we would have been a thorn in your side always.

 

[angeldust]

Suffice to say that we in Pakistan are glad that partiton took place and we are not ruled by Hindus.

Glad you may or may not be (what else are you going to say otherwise on a forum with Indians looking on?), but that stil does not make Jinnah right or Azad wrong.

Take the "Pakistan a nation?" thread as well as so many other Afghan, Pashtun, Baloch forums as an example. And look at Indians here and elsewhere.

You are not united in spite of sharing the same faith. We are very united despite belonging to different faiths.

We both fight internally. No one is saying that everything is rosy and cozy.

But when we fight, we fight always as Indians first above all other internal divisions. That remains sacrosant and inviolable.

When you fight, you fight as Shias and Sunnis, Sunnis and Shias and Hazaras and Ahmediyas, Punjabi and Sindhi and Baloch and Pashtun and Mohajir.

"Pakistan" as an entity comes out and to the fore only when India comes in.

Little wonder that India leaves you to yourself.

Deny the enemy the only glue that binds it together.

 

[ice_man]

Glad you may or may not be (what else are you going to say otherwise on a forum with Indians looking on?), but that stil does not make Jinnah right or Azad wrong.

Take the "Pakistan a nation?" thread as well as so many other Afghan, Pashtun, Baloch forums as an example. And look at Indians here and elsewhere.

You are not united in spite of sharing the same faith. We are very united despite belonging to different faiths.

We both fight internally. No one is saying that everything is rosy and cozy.

But when we fight, we fight always as Indians first above all other internal divisions. That remains sacrosant and inviolable.

When you fight, you fight as Shias and Sunnis, Sunnis and Shias and Hazaras and Ahmediyas, Punjabi and Sindhi and Baloch and Pashtun and Mohajir.

"Pakistan" as an entity comes out and to the fore only when India comes in.

Little wonder that India leaves you to yourself.

Deny the enemy the only glue that binds it together.

beautiful UTOPIA that you are portraying! but please spare me the bull! you mean to say that Telengana is not an issue? you means Mahrastrans don't feel sidelined?

you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united


& Mualana was the one fooled & believed like you that a utopia was possible but sadly that was not true. Jinnah had told him in the telegram that for god sake stop being a show boy to these congressmen & british but oh well Mualana was blinded and rest is history!

 

[angeldust]

beautiful UTOPIA that you are portraying! but please spare me the bull! you mean to say that Telengana is not an issue? you means Mahrastrans don't feel sidelined?

you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united


& Mualana was the one fooled & believed like you that a utopia was possible but sadly that was not true. Jinnah had told him in the telegram that for god sake stop being a show boy to these congressmen & british but oh well Mualana was blinded and rest is history!

We fight internally. But as Indians first and foremost.

You fight internally too. But you need India to make you feel Pakistani.

So its not Islam that binds you as one. Its actually Hinduism.

Islam in fact divides you - as Sunni and Shia and Ahmediya.

Strange paradox which Jinnah and Azad would no doubt be mulling up there over a cup of coffee - or a peg (whichever the case may be).

 

[ice_man]

We fight internally. But as Indians first and foremost.

You fight internally too. But you need India to make you feel Pakistani.

So its not Islam that binds you as one. Its actually Hinduism.

Islam in fact divides you - as Sunni and Shia and Ahmediya.

Strange paradox which Jinnah and Azad would no doubt be mulling up there over a cup of coffee - or a peg (whichever the case may be).

lslam divides us? really? why do you comment on things you don't know! it makes u look like a kid!

& caste system is what in hinduism? Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras. are what????

 

[angeldust]

lslam divides us? really? why do you comment on things you don't know! it makes u look like a kid!

& caste system is what in hinduism? Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, and Shudras. are what????

I'm old enough to vote and procreate man.

Are you telling me that the large scale killing of Shias and Ahmediyas in your country is not an internal conflict of Islam?

The genocide of the Hazaras?

Not to mention too many others I have heard of here though frankly do not understand beyong the fact that they are Muslims killing Muslims. Deobandi, Wahabi, Barelvi, etc.?

Does your North-west even consider itself to be Pakistan? Does Balochistan? That is half your country man. What are you left with - Punjab and Sindh?

Then you have the Mohajirs. "True" Pakistanis accusing them of being Indian. Muslims both of course. Brothers and one people per Jinnah.

Lets forget about your other long lost Bengali "brothers".

What wholescale killings barring sporadic incidents do you see based on caste in India? When was the last incident you heard of with victims more than 10?

How many thousand Pakistanis dead in the past 5 years? 30,000? 50,000?

Were they all killed by Hindus?

 

[ice_man]

I'm old enough to vote and procreate man.

Are you telling me that the large scale killing of Shias and Ahmediyas in your country is not an internal conflict of Islam?

The genocide of the Hazaras?

Not to mention too many others I have heard of here though frankly do not understand beyong the fact that they are Muslims killing Muslims. Deobandi, Wahabi, Barelvi, etc.?

Does your North-west even consider itself to be Pakistan? Does Balochistan? That is half your country man. What are you left with - Punjab and Sindh?

Then you have the Mohajirs. "True" Pakistanis accusing them of being Indian. Muslims both of course. Brothers and one people per Jinnah.

Lets forget about your other long lost Bengali "brothers".

What wholescale killings barring sporadic incidents do you see based on caste in India? When was the last incident you heard of with victims more than 10?

How many thousand Pakistanis dead in the past 5 years? 30,000? 50,000?

Were they all killed by Hindus?

now that you have lost you wish to troll eh?

you raised a point & i countered it. now what is your issue islam? if your issue is islam then start a thread on it! besides in india the hindus of lower caste have become so instituionalized that they don't fight back and take it lying down!

in the urban areas like any country people are after money & not castes.

as for killings in Pakistan well they never existed till after war on terror. even now it is run by TERRORISTS! hence it cannot be classified as anything else.

However 2008 killings of CHRISTIANS in ORISSA or the gujrat massacre or the NON STOP KILLINGS IN KASHMIR & the killing of sikhs in golden temple clearly are classified as HINDU KILLING ACTS!

now tell me what is your point? why are you going around in circles?

 

[Contrarian]

Lol..the last major riot in India was a decade back!
And you quote that as an argument! You must be sad to know then that Indians are evolving as with each passing year caste or religious violence is declining.
That had to be evident since you are compelled to use a decade old example!

 

[somebozo]

Lol..the last major riot in India was a decade back!
And you quote that as an argument! You must be sad to know then that Indians are evolving as with each passing year caste or religious violence is declining.
That had to be evident since you are compelled to use a decade old example!

2008 is not a decade old!

 

[angeldust]

now that you have lost you wish to troll eh?

you raised a point & i countered it. now what is your issue islam? if your issue is islam then start a thread on it! besides in india the hindus of lower caste have become so instituionalized that they don't fight back and take it lying down!

in the urban areas like any country people are after money & not castes.

as for killings in Pakistan well they never existed till after war on terror. even now it is run by TERRORISTS! hence it cannot be classified as anything else.

However 2008 killings of CHRISTIANS in ORISSA or the gujrat massacre or the NON STOP KILLINGS IN KASHMIR & the killing of sikhs in golden temple clearly are classified as HINDU KILLING ACTS!

now tell me what is your point? why are you going around in circles?

I am neither trolling nor do I want to fight with you about history man.

Point is, what did Jinnah achieve for the Muslims of undivided India?

Divided between three warring countries.

The Hindus on the other hand kept the one nation they always had. And they were and remain undivided.

Mull on that.

 

[LaBong]

you are saying all of NORTH EASTERN INDIA is not grieving? & you also really truly believe that south indians and north indians are united??? hell make a Calcutta person sit with a Mumbai person and we shall see! or better make a sardar sit with a Bengali & tell me they are united

What will happen if a Calcutta person like me and Mumbai person like Fateh meet? We probably have few beers and do chit chat and go home. There are plenty of Sikhs in Calcutta, ask Mirza Jatt. One of my best friend have been a Sardarni whose ancestral land is Laylapur.

Not sure where do you Pakistanis get these ideas.

 

[Vinod2070]

I am neither trolling nor do I want to fight with you about history man.

Point is, what did Jinnah achieve for the Muslims of undivided India?

Divided between three warring countries.

The Hindus on the other hand kept the one nation they always had. And they were and remain undivided.

Mull on that.

He overplayed his hand.

And got what he didn't really want.

 

[angeldust]

He overplayed his hand.

And got what he didn't really want.

No one man is ever important.

Point is, the Muslims as a whole got what they did not need.

What we hear today from the Pakistanis is the dejected defiance that comes from the pain of realization.

 

[Vinod2070]

No one man is ever important.

Point is, the Muslims as a whole got what they did not need.

What we hear today from the Pakistanis is the dejected defiance that comes from the pain of realization.

Well that is correct.

But it doesn't matter now. We are better off without them and that is what matters.