Jinnah VS A.Kalam Azad

[vsdoc]

Are you trying to say something? You terribly lack that good command of English that is needed to demonstrate the poetic prowess. Keep it simple and say again whatever you are trying to say.

I am saying that Jinnah's spiel of creating a secular nation for the muslims of undivided India was a sham.

A sham that nobody bought then - including his own people, during his own lifetime.

A sham that was not bought by his own blood, who chose India.

A sham that was exposed when the country he carved out in 1947 was further carved up in 1971.

A sham that needless to say is not bought today either.

 

[SQ8]

Just ban them.

PDF has become choked with new members who are here just to start flame wars. I don't even post anymore. Any thread i open up, is India vs Pakistan BS. Seriously, ban them!!!

NO.. we dont do this..
We are not like other forums and other people where critique is not tolerated and the other country is only ridiculed as the main focus. We are better than them..and will remain that way.

 

[danger007]

it will be foolishness to compare two great leaders... what the need to use "vs" here.....

 

[SQ8]

But if you actually look at his points for opposing the partition then it makes sense. He knew that once the subcontinent is divided then Muslims would be divided as well and look at it now, Muslims in South Asia are divided into 3 nationalities and have been turned against each other. Also I agree on why he tried to stop Indian Muslims from moving to Pakistan in 1947.

I'm not opposing Quaid e Azam because I know his concerns were valid and partition for him was the last option.

Exactly.. he saw too the same issues that the maulana did..
But when he experience the inflexibility shown by the more venomous Hindu politicians from India.. he was aghast at the worst case scenario in India which for which he thought that the worst case in Pakistan(if he was there to manage it or any of his close compatriots) would still be better than the former.
Unfortunately.. if one looks at that early history.. almost all of the original Muslim league stalwarts were either killed.. or sidelined by Ghulam Mohd.. and then Ayub Khan..a man purposefully slated for retirement by the Quaid.
Pakistan was never really allowed to be what it could be from day one.

 

[SQ8]

Clearly Off-topic but, can you tell me how exactly you found LKO backward, buddy? I & my family don't live there but have visited the place numerous times and if you ask me I can never call it backward. The roads in LKO infact are even better than Delhi at many places.. The city got beautiful Gardens, Sahara shahar (city) and old monuments.. Hazrat ganj actually gives me glimpses of Canaught place (CP, Delhi). and most of the residential areas there are well planned and look nice too.. Now if you have been to the oldest of the oldest part of LKO then I can not comment but then each city has its share of good and bad and so does LKO.. Not saying LKO is one of most advanced city but it certainly can not be called backward by any means..

The biggest issue i see in the city is the way people drive there.. Even the traffic police waala can not stop anyone jumping the lights and they honk like crazies.. But I like that madness too..

I went a while ago.. so I cannot state the conditions now..
My ancestral home(whatever is left of it)
Mostafa Manzil, Katra, Abo Tarab, Lucknow

My grandmothers father was the editor of an urdu daily from the area(apparently the paper shut down due to mismanagement by his sons) and was a staunch congress supporter.
He was close friends with Nehru.. and was able to simply walk into the PM's office whenever he wished..
I must admit I was saddened on a personal level when I visited that area since that very compound was once frequented by the likes of Jawaharlal Nehru and ironically maulana Azad..looked like a rundown area when I visited it.
None of his sons or even those of his cousins migrated right after 47... but as time passed they realized that India was not offering them all that was promised.. so one by one they moved to Pakistan.. those that did move to Pakistan prospered greatly.
My grandfather hailed from elsewhere.. had joined the IN in 45.. opted for Pakistan.. and we've done great.

Do I really want to give a hoot about India's Muslims? No..
These people are doing fine now.. although not as good as their cousins.. but to each their own.
Accomplished in their own right..but they do speak of issues in the community which I reflected upon.

Things have improved since then a LOT..
my mothers uncle is currently part of the comitte on labour.
I cant say.. I spoke to relatives out there..and they were very happy on fb.
The Compound itself looks brand new.. and renovated..
Perhaps there is hope..
After all.. what other person on PDF can say that he has members of family sitting in the govts and armed forces of both India and Pakistan

 

[vsdoc]

he was aghast at the worst case scenario in India which for which he thought that the worst case in Pakistan(if he was there to manage it or any of his close compatriots) would still be better than the former.

If that's truly what he thought, something most of us doubt if not reject out of hand, then he would be squirming in his grave today at how wrong he was.

Unfortunately.. if one looks at that early history.. almost all of the original Muslim league stalwarts were either killed.. or sidelined by Ghulam Mohd.. and then Ayub Khan..a man purposefully slated for retirement by the Quaid.
Pakistan was never really allowed to be what it could be from day one.

At best Pakistan allowed to be what it could have been from day one would have been a Muslim India. A worthy ideal if it had worked out.

You may have your theories about why you failed. We have our own. But that in the final analysis would only be differing views of a post-mortem.

 

[Tamizhan]

I went a while ago.. so I cannot state the conditions now..
My ancestral home(whatever is left of it) is in a very old area the name of which I cannot recall.
My grandmothers father was the editor of an urdu daily from the area(apparently the paper shut down due to mismanagement by his sons) and was a staunch congress supporter.
He was close friends with Nehru.. and was able to simply walk into the PM's office whenever he wished..
I must admit I was saddened on a personal level when I visited that area since that very compound was once frequented by the likes of Jawaharlal Nehru and ironically maulana Azad..now looks like a rundown slum.
None of his sons or even those of his cousins migrated right after 47... but as time passed they realized that India was not offering them all that was promised.. so one by one they moved to Pakistan.. those that did move to Pakistan prospered greatly.
those that stayed.. are really just living in the same way they were back in the 50's.
My grandfather hailed from elsewhere.. had joined the IN in 45.. opted for Pakistan.. and we've done great.

Do I really want to give a hoot about India's Muslims? No..
But it does sadden me to see my roots in such dilapidated conditions.. even though the people left behind will change their sad faces to forced smiles when you ask how they feel in India.. One sees them not being able to have all that those people whom they spent their childhood with had. It does beg a question..

It begs a question what they are still doing in India ? Or more precisely why they have not left India for Pakistan ? After all they seem to have relatives there who can stand by by them and help them set a new life.

Any thoughts on that ?

 

[Porus]

I am saying that Jinnah's spiel of creating a secular nation for the muslims of undivided India was a sham.

Shame on you for no knowing that Pakistan was not created to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India, even the exchange of population of Punjab that took place during partition was not pre-planned.

A sham that nobody bought then - including his own people, during his own lifetime.

People who supported Jinnah and fought alongwith him for the creation of this country were inspired by the vision and leadership of Mr. Jinnah. But how this country in the following years fell into the hands of dumb military generals and their partner Mullahs who have turned it into a haven of intolerant and bigot fundamentalists is not a secret any more. We Pakistanis should sit and seriously think what kind of country do we want to have. A secular and democratic Pakistan as Jinnah has envisioned it to be, or we want to live in a religiously intolerant and regressive society whose foundations were laid by none other than Zia the mardood.

A sham that was not bought by his own blood, who chose India.

His family was closely associated with the Parsi community, his own daughter was married into a Parsi family. As we know that Parsis didn't migrate to Pakistan after partition, therefore, it shouldn't be a surprised that his daughter chose to remain in India.

A sham that was exposed when the country he carved out in 1947 was further carved up in 1971.

America, since its inception, has always been a secular country that was envisioned by her founding fathers. Were they proved wrong when the country was plunged into a deadly civil war?

A sham that needless to say is not bought today either.

This is justt your own figment of imagination. Millions of Pakistanis don't agree with the things going on in Pakistan and they want to have a secular and democratic country like Turkey and they will get it soon.

 

[Tamizhan]

Shame on you for no knowing that Pakistan was not created to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India, even the exchange of population of Punjab that took place during partition was not pre-planned.

That is wrong.

Pakistan (as per Jinnah's vision) was indeed planned to be the home of all subcontinental Muslims from Punjab to UP to Assam to Deccan to Tamil Nadu.

According to him, a subcontinental Muslim, whoever he is, is different in thought, action, culture from the Hindus and cannot livewith them. No where does he say Pakistan should be created only for Punjabi Muslims or UP Muslims or any specific group.

Such theories are nothing but revisionist fantasies by those who oppose the likes of Stranded Pakistanis in BD getting Pak citizenship.

 

[SQ8]

It begs a question what they are still doing in India ? Or more precisely why they have not left India for Pakistan ? After all they seem to have relatives there who can stand by by them and help them set a new life.

Any thoughts on that ?

Please read my post again.. I have corrected details.

 

[Porus]

That is wrong.

Pakistan (as per Jinnah's vision) was indeed planned to be the home of all subcontinental Muslims from Punjab to UP to Assam to Deccan to Tamil Nadu.

According to him, a subcontinental Muslim, whoever he is, is different in thought, action, culture from the Hindus and cannot livewith them. No where does he say Pakistan should be created only for Punjabi Muslims or UP Muslims or any specific group.

Such theories are nothing but revisionist fantasies by those who oppose the likes of Stranded Pakistanis in BD getting Pak citizenship.

Jinnah indeed had said that Hindus and Muslims are two different nations but he still never said it anywhere that Pakistan would be the homeland of the entire Muslim population of British India. He was smart enough to know that neither Pak will be big enough to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India nor the people of Pakistan will ever accept it. This is the reason that soon after the partition new laws made migration from India to Pak illegal.

 

[vsdoc]

Thanks for that post Oscar.

Just by the way, my dad is from Lucknow too. A La Martinian. My great grandad was station master of Kanpur when it was still Cawnpore.

For his many decades of service, the Brits gave him an entire bogey of a luxury train - which was somehow raised and permanently installed onto the second floor level of our ancestral home - which the locals call dabba ghar.

 

[Tamizhan]

Please read my post again.. I have corrected details.

Now you are getting me a bit confused.

First you said they are sad and they forcibly smile when asked about India and now you have corrected to, "perhaps there is hope".So I take it that they are confident about India.

As regards certain "social issues" unfortunately for them, that is the legacy of Partition and of all those non-state actors who time and again have come to our soil for a guest-lecture and they have to learn to live with it. We are also humans, not saints. We can forgive, but not forget.

Jinnah indeed had said that Hindus and Muslims are two different nations but he still never said it anywhere that Pakistan would be the homeland of the entire Muslim population of British India. He was smart enough to know that neither Pak will be big enough to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India nor the people of Pakistan will ever accept it. This is the reason that soon after the partition new laws made migration from India to Pak illegal.

You are just playing on semantics.

Pakistan was envisioned as the home of all subcontinental Muslims and there can be no two opinion about it. Just because laws were made by the natives to protect their interest doesn't mean Jinnah endorsed it.

What (or who) do you mean by "people of Pakistan" ? Are the Muhajirs/Biharis/Daccanis included in that ? If not, its going against Jinnah's vision. A part of our nation was separated so that all the Muslims can live in it free from Hindu domination. That is the crux of TNT. It is not the Punjabis ,Sindhis and Pathans can live free from Hindu domination.

p.s. Practicality of running a nation was never a consideration of Muslim League or Jinnah till they actually got what they wished for.

 

[vsdoc]

Shame on you for no knowing that Pakistan was not created to accommodate the entire Muslim population of British India, even the exchange of population of Punjab that took place during partition was not pre-planned.

What is the cornerstone of the Two Nation Theory?

People who supported Jinnah and fought alongwith him for the creation of this country were inspired by the vision and leadership of Mr. Jinnah. But how this country in the following years fell into the hands of dumb military generals and their partner Mullahs who have turned it into a haven of intolerant and bigot fundamentalists is not a secret any more. We Pakistanis should sit and seriously think what kind of country do we want to have. A secular and democratic Pakistan as Jinnah has envisioned it to be, or we want to live in a religiously intolerant and regressive society whose foundations were laid by none other than Zia the mardood.

Please hurry to it. Its taken you 65 years and counting. And many of yours on this very forum would be your strongest critics and opponents in the effort.

His family was closely associated with the Parsi community, his own daughter was married into a Parsi family. As we know that Parsis didn't migrate to Pakistan after partition, therefore, it shouldn't be a surprised that his daughter chose to remain in India.

Jinnah died lonely lonely man. As did his wife before him. They were had been living separately for years. There was no love lost between Jinnah and his daughter. And it was mutual.

We have been through all this before, and I do not want to rake through it again. If interested -

http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/33413-jinnahs-grandson-nusli-wadia-shocked-bjps-take.html

For the record, there are around 20,000 Parsis at last count still living in Pakistan.

America, since its inception, has always been a secular country that was envisioned by her founding fathers. Were they proved wrong when the country was plunged into a deadly civil war?

They would have been if they had been cleaved into two years after their creation on the very basis of the very fundamentals the edifice of their creation had been built on.

This is justt your own figment of imagination. Millions of Pakistanis don't agree with the things going on in Pakistan and they want to have a secular and democratic country like Turkey and they will get it soon.

I wish you the best of luck.

What do you plan to do about the nearly vanished white stripe of your national flag though?

Import?

I wish you the very best with that too.

 

[Porus]

You are just playing on semantics.

Pakistan was envisioned as the home of all subcontinental Muslims and there can be no two opinion about it. Just because laws were made by the natives to protect their interest doesn't mean Jinnah endorsed it.

What (or who) do you mean by "people of Pakistan" ? Are the Muhajirs/Biharis/Daccanis included in that ? If not, its going against Jinnah's vision. A part of our nation was separated so that all the Muslims can live in it free from Hindu domination. That is the crux of TNT. It is not the Punjabis ,Sindhis and Pathans can live free from Hindu domination.

p.s. Practicality of running a nation was never a consideration of Muslim League or Jinnah till they actually got what they wished for.

Life will be less painful for you if you learn to accept reality. A part of 'your' nation were the lands of those people who had been living on their lands since hundreds and thousands of years, who labored upon this land to grow food and fought wars and shed their blood to defend it from the aggressors, and if they had not lost wars against the British their land would have never become a part of 'your' nation.

Pakistanis are those who are now the nationals of Pakistan. Those Muslims who migrated from India to Pak and have acquired its citizenship are equal Pakistanis now.

It will be even foolish to imagine that a Pashtun or even Punjabi will ever be ready to share his land with millions of immigrants with whom they hardly share anything except religion. Jinnah never said it and he never asked them to leave India and migrate to their new homeland. Before leaving for Pakistan he left a message for the Muslims of India, he said that since Pak and India are now to separate countries the Muslim of India should be loyal to their country.