Jihadis flock to Pakistan from more diverse backgrounds

[Dance]

"Actions speak louder than words" - fits best here to explain why no Pakistanis say this.

Yeah I don't know why Indians keep saying this, when no Pakistani says that.

Saying Pakistan is the "thekedaar of Islam" is like saying India is a superpower or is shining. Both are based on delusions lol

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Russia listen to India and wouldnot be willing to supply those coz India would not let them...
will no such chances till 2022+....
Russia and Pakistan's relations would improved till that time...

I do not think that will apply to Mi-17 helos. They are cheap, robust and easy to maintain. The situation that is looming does not requre Helicopter Gunships, but Helos that quickly move troops in and out, while the existing Helos such as Cobras, Bells etc. recce the terrain ahead and around them. The movement of agile light forces can be done by Mi-17s and Pumas just equipped with MGs. No hi-fi stuff is required for insurgents. But surveillance and intelligence will have to be good. Most of all a will to act will be required both in the Higher Command and right down to the lowest echelons.
Any ideological confusion or hesitation based on any grounds will be simply too dangerous for PA.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Gentleman has provided an excellent answer -- as to the imagined powerful Army and ISI, yawn, these are duffers, and extension of the feudals that Gentleman has highlighted -- look Pakistani soldiers are regularly lined up, skinned alive, beheaded, you name it, ever hear the leadership of either the armed forces of ISI say, "we gonna get yu sukka"? and actually get them?? They have golf courses to attend, free useless US equipment in return for giving the US free reign and giving the Indian heart burn.

For the feudals and look the govt of Pakistan is by for and of, these feudals, so long as they are not being targeted and they can make their money, all is good -- look at some of the stuff going on in Pakistan, stock market booming, commodity (read rural) living is large, urbanites and legal property owners running for cover, the have-not 9includes the police and their political patrons)
involved in robbing these same urbanites -- clearly, for some in Pakistan, life is good, I mean really good - "why do you rob banks"? "That's where the money is - why be in govt in Pakistan? That's where the money is

@muse,
But right now things are not looking bright at all, rather (forgive me for sounding pessimistic) there is a visibly grim outlook. If these tribalistic elements gain the upper hand then the feudals, waderas etc will also be eventually be swept aside. Initially, the feudals will buy peace. But it cannot hold for very long. If the feudals want to survive they need the Govt (maybe we can call it another feudal) to survive. Pakistan's existential threat is swinging around to the west. I just feel if both these ruling elements do not link up; we will have to see the dominos toppling. Will not be pleasant at all.

 

[Bonhomie]

Bonhomie:

If you have the time read some of the posts in the flwg thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/231669-growing-agitation-pakistanis-against-usa.html

Change is generally uncomfortable - and there are times when it is inevitable - "foundations of of their existence" not quite, it's time to give up this "noble savage" lies about the Pashtun, like anyone else thery want a better life for their children, not in the after life but this life, this one life.

I couldn't care less about ethnicity when I wrote what I wrote above; It's everybody's personal belonging. Ironic it is to see how much pride people take in Classifications, Affiliations..

I referred to a state of turmoil that can be easily seen in various part of this Country khair the debate heading different way.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Karan and @Dance, please give it a break. Irrelevant squabbling is'nt leading anywhere.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Karan.1970 and @Dance- you guys are fun and funny

Now that the thekedaari is out of the way; lets work on some of the points that Muse has stated- i.e. Coercion and Governance. Can you gents throw up some ideas?

 

[Dance]

tribalistic elements

Can you explain what you mean?

 

[karan.1970]

@Karan.1970 and @Dance- you guys are fun and funny

Now that the thekedaari is out of the way; lets work on some of the points that Muse has stated- i.e. Coercion and Governance. Can you gents throw up some ideas?

You mean about apart from your coercion in getting me to remove my post ?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

You mean about apart from your coercion in getting me to remove my post ?

Coercion is the only thing that I could try on you. Do you think I can govern you?

Can you explain what you mean?

I am talking about the nature of the society in those parts. The Tribe takes primacy over anything else; above Nation, above State, above Citizenship. Where the only law and loyalty is Tribal, how does one introduce Governance or how does one make Governance effective? That is what came to my mind (among other things) after reading @muse post about the two points.

 

[Dance]

Coercion is the only thing that I could try on you. Do you think I can govern you?



I am talking about the nature of the society in those parts. The Tribe takes primacy over anything else; above Nation, above State, above Citizenship. Where the only law and loyalty is Tribal, how does one introduce Governance or how does one make Governance effective? That is what came to my mind (among other things) after reading @muse post about the two points.

Pakistan does have an issue with feudalism, especially in the rural parts. There is a slow change taking place in regards to feudalism (read about the Shahzeb Khan case to get a good understanding). Twenty years ago feudal lords could get away with almost anything, but thanks to the media and the spread of internet in general it can't really happen today. I may be an optimist but with increasing education and globalization, feudalism and tribalism cannot last too long in Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

I agree that this is a huge problem. Arab terrorists, fanatics from China's Uruzguan, IMU fighters from Uzbekistan which doesn't even share a border with us, Jundullah fighters for Iran. We shouldn't have let those terrorist haves survive. I say leave others just target TTP and Hakimullah Maseed who is targeting Pakistani troops. We don't know what we are doing. The militants on the other hand are organizing themselves and even paying their fighters huge sums of money.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Pakistan does have an issue with feudalism, especially in the rural parts. There is a slow change taking place in regards to feudalism (read about the Shahzeb Khan case to get a good understanding). Twenty years ago feudal lords could get away with almost anything, but thanks to the media and the spread of internet in general it can't really happen today. I may be an optimist but with increasing education and globalization, feudalism and tribalism cannot last too long in Pakistan.

Firstly, I agree with your last statement. That is something that will need some more time. In the interim the situation is not bright (unless you disagree with that). So what I said earlier about tribalism and its fallout needs to be tackled. How does one do that?

 

[karan.1970]

Pakistan does have an issue with feudalism, especially in the rural parts. There is a slow change taking place in regards to feudalism (read about the Shahzeb Khan case to get a good understanding). Twenty years ago feudal lords could get away with almost anything, but thanks to the media and the spread of internet in general it can't really happen today. I may be an optimist but with increasing education and globalization, feudalism and tribalism cannot last too long in Pakistan.

What Pakistan is missing is a sustained and structured Land reform process

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I agree that this is a huge problem. Arab terrorists, fanatics from China's Uruzguan, IMU fighters from Uzbekistan which doesn't even share a border with us, Jundullah fighters for Iran. We shouldn't have let those terrorist haves survive. I say leave others just target TTP and Hakimullah Maseed who is targeting Pakistani troops. We don't know what we are doing. The militants on the other hand are organizing themselves and even paying their fighters huge sums of money.

If there is such an assorted polyglot of actors from all over the place; then what is the "cement" binding them together?

What Pakistan is missing is a sustained and structured Land reform process

But that will come from a matured system of Governance. Pakistan has had only ad-hoc systems for most of its existence. So how does one cover the lacuna?

 

[haviZsultan]

If there is such an assorted polyglot of actors from all over the place; then what is the "cement" binding them together?

Maybe across the border in those embassies in Afghanistan?