JF17 Thunder's New More potent superior Engine

[LawaOnline]

Good stuff related to JF17 thunder.

 

[VCheng]

In addition to the key power-to-weight ratio of the WS-13, in service, the MTBO and MTBF that it provides are going to be important too.

Do we have any updates as to whether the prototype are reaching beyond a 2,000 hr MTBO?

 

[Terminigger]

I would rather say the USA is still the best at military engineering. Just look at how they use their money, resources and other packages to attract talents to USA and become American Engineers. You will likely find engineers from Pakistan, India, China as well as from Germany, UK etc. working in high and responsible places in American defence industries. At the end, Money, Research Facilities, Opportunity to perform and Career advancement do matter.

I would probably put the sovietss at the ranks of the Americans as they were the first ones to pioneer space vehicles and put up the first space station (MIR) which stayed up for over 30 years!!!! I understand that you are a pakistani defector but this is no way of judging The USSR solely of what a couple of Jew generals and companies say. I have relatives in the US army and Lockheed, they too tell me that the companies are overrated... so read up on both sides before judging....

 

[Terminigger]

First of all, the real specifications, the official specifications for WS-13 engine have not been told, only speculative, rumored specifications, thus based on rumored specification figures, we can't compare the WS-13 & RD-93 engines.

And as for your point 2 & 3, if we match the current available figures of both engines, there isn't much difference, not as much as you just said. 400KG difference, don't think so.

And as for point 1, well can't say till we see the real product in action.

I agree with your first two comments except for the last one regarding my first point. The soviet RD-93 and NPO- Saturn class engines that have powered soviet aircrafts have been aroud for over 45 years. So by saying that you will wait for the real product in action just shows your lack of knowledge of the Soviet engines. Plus if you want to find out how they did, look at the afgan war and the balkan wars between the USA and USSR. the US WAS ACTUALLY LOOSING the balkans and had to retreat as their aircrafts had a tough time performing in such climates. also, have you ever been to moscow? The average temp there is -30 degrees celcius in the winter, so they had to make them bullet proof to work in such conditions.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I agree with your first two comments except for the last one regarding my first point. The soviet RD-93 and NPO- Saturn class engines that have powered soviet aircrafts have been aroud for over 45 years. So by saying that you will wait for the real product in action just shows your lack of knowledge of the Soviet engines. Plus if you want to find out how they did, look at the afgan war and the balkan wars between the USA and USSR. the US WAS ACTUALLY LOOSING the balkans and had to retreat as their aircrafts had a tough time performing in such climates. also, have you ever been to moscow? The average temp there is -30 degrees celcius in the winter, so they had to make them bullet proof to work in such conditions.

Plzzz go and read the history of russian engines and the issues they used to cause. Plz read the problems IAF faced when they got their Mig-29s and it was engine specific, the same RD series engine on which RD-93 is based.

Also, read up what used to be the total life span of Russian engines and the MTBO.

Read it on net and then tell me how good they used to be, just recently they have started to make things better.

So update your knowledge before asking me to do so, as i have good knowledge about Russian engines and their philosophy.

And do give me link with facts about your this ineffective US engines in the Balkans. USAF has been operating in the coldest of the regions since decades just like the Russians, so don't see how they have ineffective engines. Most of the european countries (Sweden, Swiss, Danish etc etc) with coldest atmosphere/weather use US made aircraft and engines and since decades.

And as for Chinese, i hope you do know about what Chinese do, they take others research, full or half and then work on it and improve on it. And Chinese have been making engines since decades too, may be not as advanced as others, but they do have some experience in making engines and for more then 2 decades they have been doing work on turbo fan engines and they are covering their ground by learning from the mistakes of the others, thus shortening the time period for their engine development.

Recent Chinese offer in helping the Russians to increase the thrust of the RD series engine is a good proof that Chinese have made progress and they have the know how too.

So, as said, let the things come out, then we see what is the real difference between the products, is it equal, inferior or superior.

And do check out the Russian engines and their history and their quality related issues.

 

[VCheng]

In addition to TaimiKhan's excellent comments above, MTBO and MTBF are not the only parameters relevant to the JF-17. Performance at high angles of attack, prevention of compressor stalls and flameout under sudden transitions, power ramp up characteristics, smokeless performance, exhaust turbine temperatures under prolonged full throttle use, and fuel consumption at full afterburner are just some of the many other issues that are important as well for a combat aircraft.

The best engines with regards to these considerations no doubt are US, followed by the Europeans and the Russians. The Chinese are catching up fast as well but they have a lot to learn still.

 

[dr.crazze]

First China-made jet engine to debut in 2016
www.chinaview.cn 2009-08-27 00:16:53 Print
SHANGHAI, Aug. 26 (Xinhua) -- China's first home-made jet engine will make a debut in 2016, a significant step of the large-jet program, an official said Wednesday.

"China is expected to complete the research of its first jumbo jet engine in 2016 and begin to apply for aviation certificate from the state aviation authority," said Zhang Jian, general manager of the Shanghai-based AVIC Commercial Aircraft Engine Co. Ltd.

"We hope the home-made engine will fly together with the home-made large aircraft," he said.

The engine company was established in Shanghai in January. The company will focus on the research and development of home-made jet engines.

The government-owned Aviation Industry Corp. of China (AVIC) holds a 40 percent stake in the company, which has registered capital of 6 billion yuan (877 million U.S. dollars).

The firm is another step in the development of the commercial aviation industry after the establishment of the Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China Ltd. in May last year. The plan is to put aircraft with at least 150 seats into the market by 2020.

"It would take about 20 years to develop an engine to propel China's first homemade large plane," said Liu Daxiang, an expert with the AVIC, the country's leading aircraft maker.

According to Chinese analysts, developing aircraft engines will break the monopoly of foreign suppliers such as GE, Rolls-Royce and the Pratt & Whitney Group. An engine industry will also stimulate the growth of other domestic sectors such as electronics, digitally-controlled machines and composite materials.

China only makes military aircraft engines now.

pls provide proof of chinese help to russians
though india has already setup plants for RD 33 production

 

[Beast]

pls provide proof of chinese help to russians
though india has already setup plants for RD 33 production

http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-...ian-salyut-al-31f-jet-engine.html#post1124935

China makes modifications to Russian Salyut AL-31F jet engine

Reuben F Johnson Correspondent - Kiev

Key Points
The PLAAF has developed its own upgrade for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F jet engine

The development demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in supporting their fighters' Russian-made engines


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has developed its own service life extension modifications for the Russian-made Salyut AL-31F engine, a Moscow-based defence and foreign policy think-tank has reported.

The modifications to the AL-31F/FN P.2 series engine increase its operational limits by more than 65 per cent - from 900 to 1,500 flight hours, according to the privately owned Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST).
The AL-31F engine is the powerplant for several types of aircraft in the PLAAF inventory: the Sukhoi Su-27 (which is also licence-produced at the Shenyang Aircraft Works as the J-11), the Su-30MKK and the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation J-10. The AL-31FN is a special derivative of the original AL-31F design that was developed by the Salyut plant in Moscow for a single-engine application to be fitted to the J-10.

The service life modifications were reportedly developed at the PLAAF Overhaul Plant Number 5719. The key to the service life extension is a specific set of improved, Chinese-made components that are part of what is described as a "re-manufacturing kit" that is introduced during the process of a full-scale remanufacturing and overhaul process.

The plant is located near the city of Chengdu in Sichuan province, employs 2,000 personnel and is reported to be a model of innovation within the PLAAF's network of repair plants. During the past several years the facility has initiated 63 different research and development programmes and has been awarded more than 20 state prizes for achievements in technological innovation. In the same time period, the plant's assets have more than doubled from CNY1.1 billion (USD147.2 million) in 2004 to CNY2.9 billion today.

The plant's officials credit the success of their overhaul process to a decision taken in 2004, when some of the first AL-31F engines were presented to the plant by the PLAAF for overhaul. A decision was taken, according to the Chinese news sources originally cited, to completely reorganise the overhaul process. This streamlining of the overhaul disassembly and servicing line resulted in a 27.3 per cent decrease in the time required to complete an overhaul and increased the plant's production capacity by 60 per cent.

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".

I can assure you obtaining license production of aircraft engine is nothing if you can't absorb it...

Just like Turkey is license to produce F-16 and engine. But I can assure you Turkey is not capable of designing and producing a decent modern of their own at current level. Many times, this so called license produce, critical core crystal blade fan is still supply by the origin countries to them for assemble..

 

[dr.crazze]

I can assure you obtaining license production of aircraft engine is nothing if you can't absorb


i disagree a bit sir
Al-31FN and Al-31F are not same there is a 19 year difference btw them
though al31 fn has bit more thrust at 125 kn tailor made for J10 fighter though i can't get any link of these engines produced in china all links showing overhauls being done in china
also pardon me if it looks any vs thing but india however produce the AL-31FP the TVC version in its koraput facility
it should also be noted that china have the Al-31F for about 15 years and thats a considerable time for reverse engineering
though you can quote WS 15 but still there is a lot of foreign input in it and its still not funtional same goes for your WS 10A as again you have to go for the russian version
my question remains the same how the chinese help russians????????????
personally i think its not only about innovation but quality too and at time of emergency your country should produce the best to win or survive

Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

""

Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Beast]

I can assure you obtaining license production of aircraft engine is nothing if you can't absorb


i disagree a bit sir
Al-31FN and Al-31F are not same there is a 19 year difference btw them
though al31 fn has bit more thrust at 125 kn tailor made for J10 fighter though i can't get any link of these engines produced in china all links showing overhauls being done in china
also pardon me if it looks any vs thing but india however produce the AL-31FP the TVC version in its koraput facility
it should also be noted that china have the Al-31F for about 15 years and thats a considerable time for reverse engineering
though you can quote WS 15 but still there is a lot of foreign input in it and its still not funtional same goes for your WS 10A as again you have to go for the russian version
my question remains the same how the chinese help russians????????????
personally i think its not only about innovation but quality too and at time of emergency your country should produce the best to win or survive

Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

""

Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly u have some inferiority complex. why must u twist the facts? WS-10a is functional and operation and Already equip on j-11b. Are you still living in 2009 news of ws-10a having production problem? Now is 2011. We have seen j-11b and twin seat j-11bs chunking out like hotcakes with ws-10a. And who told u W-15 has foreign content?

 

[CallsignAlzaeem]

WOA Pak-China Friendship Zindabad !!

 

[tanlixiang28776]

Clearly u have some inferiority complex. why must u twist the facts? WS-10a is functional and operation and Already equip on j-11b. Are you still living in 2009 news of ws-10a having production problem? Now is 2011. We have seen j-11b and twin seat j-11bs chunking out like hotcakes with ws-10a. And who told u W-15 has foreign content?

Unless America is directly involved in the WS 15. No other country has a fifth gen engine.

 

[dr.crazze]

1.the article Published in the No.3 issue 2001 of Aeroengine Journal , Author of which is Mr.Zhang -the chief designer on 10A. SARI (No.606) is the sponsor of this magazine.
10A was developed from CFM56 core engine imported in the mid 1980s ,designed to power both domestic Су-27 and "New Fighter".
According to the structure & performance, 10A turbofan bears a strong resemblance to her "oversea relatives " (F110 family ),so we can also call her domestic F110
2.some news (China Aviation Paper sponsored by AVIC1&2) implies that 10A turbofan is already in the final phase of certification.General manager of AVIC1 LiuGaoZhuo required SARI(No.606 institute) go all out to accomplish the certification tests of the "Crucial Type" by the end of this year, during his inspection in Shenyang on July 13rd . Early in 2001 The chief designer -ZhangEnHe (Vice superintendent of 606) declared 10A to enter service in 2005.
the following news reported that till the end of first half year ,10A has completed most Flight-test subjects in Yanliang; made a vital breakthrough during Altitude Test at China Gas Turbine Establishment (in the 1#cell of SB101 ATF) ;undergone endurance test smoothly in Shengyang (most probably accomplished QT150h、300h or AMT)

航空企事业单位圆满完成上半年科研生产任务
决胜重点型号 确保任务完成
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
今年上半年，中国一航沈阳发动机设计研究所通过加大质量管理力度，促进了以重点型号研制为中心的科研生产工 作。攻关战区高空台试验攻关取得关键性突破；试飞战区完成了大部分的考核科目；试验战区重要零部件考核试验 全面告捷；长试战区严格落实责任制，建立应急预案，及时发现问题，解决问题，持久试车进展顺利
3.On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左&#40483, stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[7] The Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals.[8]
3.
Apr.2 (China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng) -- Mr. Lin Zuoming (林左&#40483, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China), has to admit that China's "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan Engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.

AVIC CEO Lin Zuoming
In one of his opening letter, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the "chronic illness" in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of "Taihang" WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.
Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive. Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patiency of purchasing more WS-10 engine.

as you say so but with all my complexes i can't believe that in only 1 year all problems are solved and now the engine is usable
as far as the WS 15 ISSUE PLEASE SEE
1.Known, Reported and Foreign-Source Chinese Fighter Turbofan Programs

Engine
Company
Aircraft
Service Date
Max Thrust/Afterburner kg/lbs
T-W Ratio
Notes
PRC

Qinling (WS-9)
Xian Aero Engine Group
JH-7A
2003-2004
9,325+kg (20,500+lbs)
5+
Co-produced version of Spey Mk 202; initial deal in 1976 founders; revived in 1998; co-production of improved version starts in 2003

Qinling 2a
Xian Aero Engine Group
JH-7B ?
2009-2011
9,700kg ? / (21,400lbs) ?
6.5 ?
Improved version said to be competitive with the French SNECMA M53-P2

Huashan 100a
China Gas Turbine Establish-ment (GTE) and X’ian Engine Group
J-10; J-10M
2013 ?
15,530kg ? / (34,240lbs)
8.1
Reportedly based on Tumansky R-79 and R-79M turbofans, all tech data for which reported acquired in late 1990s; to be developed into versions to support new medium, STOVL and 5th gen fighters

Taihang (WS-10A/FWS-10)
Shenyang Liming Aero Engine
J-11
J-11BS
J-10?
JXX proto-type?
2008?
Reported goal: 13,200kg / (29,106lbs)
Reportedly achieved: 11,220kg / (24,730lbs) to 12,800kg / (28,220lbs)
7.5
Development starts in 1986; reported initial production by 2006; US and Russian tech influences; has Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC); core serving as basis for large bypass transport turbofan and naval turbine engine

Taihang Mod.
(WS-10G)a
Shenyang Liming Aero Engine
JXX
2012+?
15,500-15,810kg / (34,117lbs)
9.5
Reported development of the Taihang intended for 5th generation fighters

Taishan (WS-13)
Guizhou Aero Engine Group
FC-1 ?
2010?
80-86.37kN / (17,980-19,391lbs)
7.8
Development started in 2000; based largely on RD-33/93 but with substantial new inputs; 2,200 hour life span; reports of 100kN/22,450lbs thrust version in development

Unknown engine
China Gas Turbine Establish-ment (GTE) (Chengdu)
FC-1 ?; new Chengdu twin-engine fighter?
2010+?
9,500kg / (20,940lbs)
n/a
Revealed at the 2008 Zhuhai Airshow; reported derived from WS-13; FADEC and axisymetric thrust vectoring nozzle; GTE is designer, but manufacturer is not known

Unknown engine
GTE
n/a
2010+?
4,200kg / (9,259lbs)
8.1
Different from but also benefitted from Taihang program; also reported cancelled in 1999, but unknown if it has been succeeded by another progam

WS-12 / Tanggula / Emei?a
GTE?/Chengdu Engine Group Co.?
J-10
J-10M
new fighter ?
2010+?
13,815kg ? / (30,400+lbs)
8.1
Different from but also benefitted from Taihang program; also reported cancelled in 1999, but unknown if it has been succeeded by another progam

WS-15
GTE/Chengdu Engine Group Co. or 606 Shenyang ?
JXX
Ptype in 2009?
2014+
Ptype: 16,500kg / (36,380lbs)
Future: 180kN / (18,350kg or 40,340lbs)
9-10
Not clear if it is a GTE or 606 or joint program; development likely started in early 1990s; component production reported started in 2006; 18-ton thrust program reported by Russian sources


now thats from International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > October Surprises In Chinese Aerospace
the international strategy and assessment

hope you are ok with my assessment or complexes also please talk on links and proofs and any new news on ws10 being used in j10
thankyou

 

[farhan_9909]

Taishan (WS-13)
Guizhou Aero Engine Group
FC-1 ?
2010?
80-86.37kN / (17,980-19,391lbs)
7.8
Development started in 2000; based largely on RD-33/93 but with substantial new inputs; 2,200 hour life span; reports of 100kN/22,450lbs thrust version in development

Unknown engine
China Gas Turbine Establish-ment (GTE) (Chengdu)
FC-1 ?; new Chengdu twin-engine fighter?
2010+?
9,500kg / (20,940lbs)
n/a
Revealed at the 2008 Zhuhai Airshow; reported derived from WS-13; FADEC and axisymetric thrust vectoring nozzle; GTE is designer, but manufacturer is not known

i hope the +100KN thrust variant of ws-13 get ready soon..

 

[Beast]

hope you are ok with my assessment or complexes also please talk on links and proofs and any new news on ws10 being used in j10
thankyou

Why can't China solved WS-10A production problem in 1 year? India is slow in orgainising Commonwealth game. So by India standard, everybody must follow India? Big powerful countries shall follow China olympic standard.

WS-10A has equipped on J-11B and J-11BS.. Why must you insist it on J-10? 2 engines on a plane is not operational engine. Then is what? Yoga super power that make it fly???

As I say you have a inferiority complex on insisting WS-10A must install on J-10 to be consider operational. Is it becos of yr Kaveri Engine that makes you do that?

As you pointed out, yr source of news is 2009.. We are in 2011.

I can show you pictures operational regiment number of J-11B in 2010 and 2011..