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Jf17 and Mig 35 remain the only options being evaluated for increasing interest: Argentine air force

Could Britain stop Argentina from buying the JF-17 warplane?


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A Pakistani JF-17 Thunder performs during a celebration in Islamabad on Sept. 6, 2015. (Aamir Qureshi/AFP via Getty Images)

ISLAMABAD — Argentina insists reports the country is buying the JF-17 Thunder warplane are premature, but analysts believe it could still succeed where other fighter types failed — mostly as a result of British pressure.

Speculation arose after media reports highlighted a request in Argentina’s fiscal 2022 draft budget for $664 million to purchase 12 JF-17s from Pakistan.

However, Argentina’s embassy in Islamabad told Defense News that “no final decision has been made, as there are five alternatives currently being assessed.” When asked to identify those contenders, the embassy responded: “We don’t have any information on those alternatives.”
Andrei Serbin Pont, the director of Argentinean think tank CRIES and a former adviser at the country’s Strategic Affairs Secretariat, said there’s been a history of such speculation. Argentina has previously “included funds for acquisition of aircraft in the budget, but the aircraft were not acquired. This occurred with Mirage F-1Ms and with Kfirs (canceled last minute in 2015),” he explained.
He believes the JF-17 is an attractive choice for Argentina because the aircraft is “out of reach of possible U.K. vetoing of parts, and at the same time it is the only new aircraft within the budgetary restraints of the Argentine Air Force.”


The U.K. previously pressured suppliers to cancel deals with Argentina, or sabotaged them by embargoing critical British components. Britain has effectively maintained an arms embargo on Argentina since the 1982 Falklands War.

Over the past decade, the country pressured Spain to scrap a deal to supply surplus Mirage F1M fighters, and a deal for Kfir jets from Israel appears to have failed due to a combination of British pressure and American control of the aircraft’s J79 engines.

Britain also effectively vetoed the sale to Argentina of Brazilian license-built Swedish Saab Gripen and Korea Aerospace Industries FA-50 aircraft. And the U.K. stopped the return to Argentinian service of ex-French Super Etendard Modernisé strike aircraft by refusing to provide export clearance for British components.

However, the JF-17 can operate with solely Chinese subsystems, effectively making it immune from British pressure.

Still, Serbin Pont said, “the United States is making a push offering used F-16s, and another alternative being put on the table are modernized F/A-18s.”

“Although Mirage and MiG aircraft are still under consideration, these are the least likely to be selected,” he added.
Brazil-based defense analyst Alex Galante believes while “the Argentine government has a preference for the JF-17,″ it might be “awaiting a better offer from the U.S. or Russia.”

Added aerospace expert Justin Bronk of the Royal United Services Institute: “After other options have been repeatedly blocked or fallen through on finance grounds, the [JF-17] aircraft increasingly looks like the best option available.” But at this stage, he added, “any replacement fighter would be a potentially transformative boon for the Fuerza Aérea Argentina [Air Force] after more than a decade of unsuccessful attempts to replace its Mirage III and V fleets.”

Britain’s diplomatic post in Pakistan did not respond to Defense News about how the European country might react to a JF-17 sale, but aerospace expert Douglas Barrie, at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, suspects Britain is closely watching the procurement effort because of the aircraft’s weapons package.
“While the JF-17/FC-1 as a platform has only modest combat aircraft characteristics, some of the Chinese air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles that are being or are already integrated on the aircraft are capable, notably the PL-10 short-range IIR AAM and the PL-12 active-radar-guided AAM,” Barrie said. “The medium-range C-802 anti-ship missile has also been seen on development aircraft.”

But Bronk pointed out that the JF-17 has “limited range while carrying such weapons, especially in the context of Argentina’s extensive land and maritime territory.”

“It also remains to be seen whether the Fuerza Aérea Argentina would be able to sustain a decent serviceability rate with the JF-17, if delivered, as recent decades have not been kind to the FAA in this regard.”
Argentina’s Air Force has struggled to replace aging aircraft and maintain offensive capabilities, having retired nearly all is front-line combat aircraft, save for some A-4AR Fightinghawk attack aircraft now supported by and even smaller number of IA-63 Pampa jet trainers.

The fourth-generation JF-17 is jointly developed and produced by China’s Chengdu Aerospace Corporation and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, the latter of which produces 58 percent of the airframe and undertakes final assembly. The latest Block III variant, in production for Pakistan and being offered to Argentina, features a range of improvements including an active electronically scanned array radar, plus the choice of a Chinese WS-13 engine rather than the Russian RD-93 that powered the first two variants and those in Pakistani service.

 
Still, Serbin Pont said, “the United States is making a push offering used F-16s, and another alternative being put on the table are modernized F/A-18s.”
How much will they cost? And will they have the ability to fire AShM? The way I see it, Argentinians want anti shipping capabilities, and UK pressure will prevent Americans from giving it to them.
They only thing I see stopping this deal is:
(1) Argentinian financial constraints.
(2) A much better Russian order, updated MiG-29 or 35 at a very low price. Or even a Flanker, who knows.
(3) Pakistan buckling under British pressure.


And the main reason I see this deal happening is that after AUKUS, China is looking to step on England's tail.
 
How much will they cost? And will they have the ability to fire AShM? The way I see it, Argentinians want anti shipping capabilities, and UK pressure will prevent Americans from giving it to them.
They only thing I see stopping this deal is:
(1) Argentinian financial constraints.
(2) A much better Russian order, updated MiG-29 or 35 at a very low price. Or even a Flanker, who knows.
(3) Pakistan buckling under British pressure.


And the main reason I see this deal happening is that after AUKUS, China is looking to step on England's tail.
Agreed. Thunders have a pretty decent shot for this deal. It just might be the best option available for Argentina. (and I am not saying it out of any biasedness)
 
How much will they cost? And will they have the ability to fire AShM? The way I see it, Argentinians want anti shipping capabilities, and UK pressure will prevent Americans from giving it to them.
They only thing I see stopping this deal is:
(1) Argentinian financial constraints.
(2) A much better Russian order, updated MiG-29 or 35 at a very low price. Or even a Flanker, who knows.
(3) Pakistan buckling under British pressure.


And the main reason I see this deal happening is that after AUKUS, China is looking to step on England's tail.
UK pressure on America? really? the Americans will look at what needs to be done and will do it. As you have stated the UK is part of AUKUS and they will understand why the US would want to stop Chinese influence in South Anerica

America could finance a very good deal for Argentina (EDA airframes with Argentina buying upgrade packs) the ASHM would be a positive, but the primary need they have is for a supersonic fighter to defend Argentinian airspace. Not for another military adventure in the South Atlantic. The F16's were offered before but were declined due to the age of the airframes.(26 aircraft)

A Russian deal will be more expensive than the American and Chinese offers.

This deal is nothing to do with Pakistan. This deal is purely about
Argentine finances (Read about how the civilian governments have traditionally disliked the military due to Argentina's murky past)
Argentina's access to Western equipment which has no British components. If you note despite all the difficulties they have had procuring aircraft they have never opted for Eastern options.
 
The JF-17 Block III has a Russian engine RD-93MA that may be a constraint for a sale to Argentina since Russia will refuse when JF-17 is competing with their fighter jet Mig-35.
 
The JF-17 Block III has a Russian engine RD-93MA that may be a constraint for a sale to Argentina since Russia will refuse when JF-17 is competing with their fighter jet Mig-35.
I don't think the MIG35 will win unless the Russians offer VERY favorable conditions (Which I think are unlikely) If the JF17 is picked they will just be happy that more people will be buying Russian engines) If they block the deal then the impetus for China to develop the WS13 just increases. (And no money at all for the Russians.)
 
UK pressure on America? really? the Americans will look at what needs to be done and will do it. As you have stated the UK is part of AUKUS and they will understand why the US would want to stop Chinese influence in South Anerica

America could finance a very good deal for Argentina (EDA airframes with Argentina buying upgrade packs) the ASHM would be a positive, but the primary need they have is for a supersonic fighter to defend Argentinian airspace. Not for another military adventure in the South Atlantic. The F16's were offered before but were declined due to the age of the airframes.(26 aircraft)

A Russian deal will be more expensive than the American and Chinese offers.

This deal is nothing to do with Pakistan. This deal is purely about
Argentine finances (Read about how the civilian governments have traditionally disliked the military due to Argentina's murky past)
Argentina's access to Western equipment which has no British components. If you note despite all the difficulties they have had procuring aircraft they have never opted for Eastern options.
UK is more important or Argentina is more important to US? You cant expect to eat the whole cake and give nothing.

What can UK understand when u sell weapon that can killed British solders or sailors? Or you expect US to sell weapon to Argentina that cant fired at UK or will be jammed in case of war of Argentina with UK?

Argentina is not stupid to pay for US weapon that can't hurt UK.
 
The problem that most people dont consider is the relationship between the UK and Pakistan right now, and how the sale of the JF17 will feed into the dynamics of that relationship, which seems to be getting worse over time.

Recently the UK placed some economic financial sanctions on Pakistan that were most certainly politically based.

How will the UK react to Pakistan, if Pakistan sells the JF17 to Argentina? Will the UK react by cancelling 302 million pounds ( $400million/year ) of foreign aid. Can Pakistan afford to lose this amount of foreign exchange to its kitty every year in return for a one off sale of JF17s?

You can argue that the aid does not go to the right people, so it is useless, but is still adding to the foreign exchange inflows of hard currency for free.

Hopefully Pakistan/PAF/PAC have thought this through?
Time to break the begging bowl. Dependency is not an option.
 
The JF-17 Block III has a Russian engine RD-93MA that may be a constraint for a sale to Argentina since Russia will refuse when JF-17 is competing with their fighter jet Mig-35.

Why? You think Chinese are stupid? Don’t you think they thought about engine when they offered FC-1/JF-17 block 3 to Argentina?
These are planes are in different class, JF-17 is light weight single engine while Mig-35 is medium weight dual engine. Also maintenance and operational cost will be different, JF-17 will be much cheaper compare to Mig-35.
Russia is in no position to block Chinese offer to Argentina. Russia and China will be in the same block to counter Western group. In next 10 years, Russia will need China more than India.
 
UK is more important or Argentina is more important to US? You cant expect to eat the whole cake and give nothing.

What can UK understand when u sell weapon that can killed British solders or sailors? Or you expect US to sell weapon to Argentina that cant fired at UK or will be jammed in case of war of Argentina with UK?

Argentina is not stupid to pay for US weapon that can't hurt UK.
You are taking too Myopic a view of this. This purchase is not to do with the Falklands Despite many people on this forum wanting it to be. The US supplied aircraft to Argentina before. The Argentine's can't defend their own country because they have almost NO airforce. They barely have a navy. And even their army is in a bad state. Despite all the knockbacks they have still tried to go for Western products. (Mirage F1's, KFIRs, Gripen KA50's)

And finally the US will likely offer EDA F16's which will cost less and the Argentine's will pay for upgrades and muntions.
 
You are taking too Myopic a view of this. This purchase is not to do with the Falklands Despite many people on this forum wanting it to be. The US supplied aircraft to Argentina before. The Argentine's can't defend their own country because they have almost NO airforce. They barely have a navy. And even their army is in a bad state. Despite all the knockbacks they have still tried to go for Western products. (Mirage F1's, KFIRs, Gripen KA50's)

And finally the US will likely offer EDA F16's which will cost less and the Argentine's will pay for upgrades and muntions.
That is in the past... Reclaim of Falkland is always the core interest of Argentina since the Falkland war ended in 1982. Any Argentina political party not going to include this core interest is not going to win any votes in Argentina.


Why buy a set of weapon u cant used on Falkland? If u buy Chinese, it can do everything.. It wouldn't take a genius to tell u the answer, right? Unless US can guarantee the F-16 can used on British. Chances of Argentina going for US is very low.

Let me repeat, there is no such thing called eating the whole pie and expect nothing return! US has to choose UK or Argentina. It cant have both.
 
That is in the past... Reclaim of Falkland is always the core interest of Argentina since the Falkland war ended in 1982. Any Argentina political party not going to include this core interest is not going to win any votes in Argentina.


Why buy a set of weapon u cant used on Falkland? If u buy Chinese, it can do everything.. It wouldn't take a genius to tell u the answer, right? Unless US can guarantee the F-16 can used on British. Chances of Argentina going for US is very low.

Let me repeat, there is no such thing called eating the whole pie and expect nothing return! US has to choose UK or Argentina. It cant have both.
Look you keep banging on the same drum and repeating yourself like it changes reality. Argentina does not...

-Have an economy suitable to go to war with anyone. They rattle the drum for the domestic audience to distract them from the fact that the economy is ruined
-They have not got a navy capable of fighting a war No Submarines, Their surface fleet is in poor condition, They have had a ship capsize in port. they have had a submarine disaster. They have no landing capability.
-The airforce has practically no offensive capability at ALL
-The army is suffering and the TAM tank upgrade has been dropped amongst other problems.

The US has supplied aircraft to Argentina in 2018 (Basic trainers) Has offered F16's (Which was only rejected because of the airframe age) and Lockheed hasn't stopped trying to sell them F16's and F18's.

I suggest you read around the US involvement in Argentina and also what happened during the Falklands war.

Then tell me about how the ability to fire Anti shipping missiles from 12 planes is going to counter that.
 
Look you keep banging on the same drum and repeating yourself like it changes reality. Argentina does not...

-Have an economy suitable to go to war with anyone. They rattle the drum for the domestic audience to distract them from the fact that the economy is ruined
-They have not got a navy capable of fighting a war No Submarines, Their surface fleet is in poor condition, They have had a ship capsize in port. they have had a submarine disaster. They have no landing capability.
-The airforce has practically no offensive capability at ALL
-The army is suffering and the TAM tank upgrade has been dropped amongst other problems.

The US has supplied aircraft to Argentina in 2018 (Basic trainers) Has offered F16's (Which was only rejected because of the airframe age) and Lockheed hasn't stopped trying to sell them F16's and F18's.

I suggest you read around the US involvement in Argentina and also what happened during the Falklands war.

Then tell me about how the ability to fire Anti shipping missiles from 12 planes is going to counter that.
Argentina attacking Falkland in 1982 is already based on zero rational. It is just to distract domestic problem.

Getting a weapon that can hurt UK or even cause some damage is gonna score political point for any Argentina party.

Getting back Falkland need to be in any agenda of whatever Argentina political party. Any political party claim of leaving Falkland one side is not gonna sit well with any argentinian..

That is why even Chinese weapon is on the table. Becos US weapon is not gonna sit well with any argentinian as long as UK interest is Involved.

That is the problem of democracy as winning votes are more important than rational decision.
 
UK pressure on America? really? the Americans will look at what needs to be done and will do it.
Every jet in USAF arsenal uses Martin Baker seats. UK can easily veto the deal.

ASHM would be a positive, but the primary need they have is for a supersonic fighter to defend Argentinian airspace
I think AShM is a requirement from Argentina's part. Makes no sense for them to buy millions of dollars worth of weapons that don't effect their main adversary.



Otherwise, why buy 4+ gen aircrafts? It's airspace can easily be defended by Italian and Czech trainer aircrafts, which's sale the UK wouldn't object to, or even Russian LIFT aircraft which don't have foreign components. Or heck, the newer Chinese LIFT aircrafts.
 
Every jet in USAF arsenal uses Martin Baker seats. UK can easily veto the deal.


I think AShM is a requirement from Argentina's part. Makes no sense for them to buy millions of dollars worth of weapons that don't effect their main adversary.



Otherwise, why buy 4+ gen aircrafts? It's airspace can easily be defended by Italian and Czech trainer aircrafts, which's sale the UK wouldn't object to, or even Russian LIFT aircraft which don't have foreign components. Or heck, the newer Chinese LIFT aircrafts.
Collins Aerospace do f16 ejection seats. They have a model for the F16.

ASHM may be a requirement but cost will be more important. The US will likely provide EDA airframes. The Argentine airforce has traditionally flown western origin aircraft and will not switch easily. (Hence my previous comments about the the attempts to get the FA-50, the Gripen. the kfir and even the mirage F1) At no point have the opted during this time to go for the Eastern option. Also the requiremnt is for SUPERSONIC aircraft. it was slightly embarrassing for the Argentines that their airforce could not protect air force one and American planes had to fly in with it.

And seriously if people want to comment on this I suggest they grow up read around South American history. Chile is Argentina's main adversary. Chile was the reason why Troops were withdrawn from the Falkland islands in 1982. Chile has a comparatively massive air force by comparison.
Argentina will not be able to do anything of substance with 12 planes or even 24 or 36. Wars cost money and Argentina has none. ( or a navy for that matter.) all this "they will retake the Falklands now" type talk is infantile and uneducated.


IHS Janes (Circa 2016)


“The Argentine Air Force is drastically cutting staff working hours and decommissioning its last fighter aircraft amid continuing budget issues.


A recently published daily agenda indicates that the service’s working hours have been significantly reduced, from 0800 to 1300; rationing of food, energy consumption, and office supplies has been directed headquarters staff and property residents; and only the minimum personnel required to staff headquarters, directorates, and commands are working.


These orders, issued on 11 August, take effect 18 August. A next step will cut Monday and Tuesday as working days. Moreover, air force officials said any aircraft taken out of service will not undergo maintenance for now.”



This leaves the Argentine military with just two types of jet aircraft A-4’s and IA-63’s and both are subsonic, decades old and barely serviceable. All Mirages were officially decommissioned in November 2015.


Only 4 of the A-4’s were airworthy with the rest in storage at Villa Reynolds.
 

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