JF-17's ECM & Design Limitations

[salarsikander]

The Israelis want their own EW suite on the F-35 because they think the F-35's is obsolete. Hence proved.

Among the US and EU, the French have the best EW tech, that's followed by the Italians and then the British.

The US is quite backward when it comes to aircraft equipped EW. In fact, the French are at least 15 years ahead. The French had surpassed the Growler before it was even introduced. And the EW suite on the F-35 was built by the British, not the Americans.

So if the Israelis think the F-35 is obsolete, what's so special about all the previous gen export grade tech that PAF operates? At the same time, India is constantly developing new EW tech with the Israelis at a very fast pace. And we have access to the best French tech also.



The EL/L 8222 was a more advanced DRFM and that was inducted back in the early 2000s. And I'm calling even that obsolete. So forget about AIDEWS. The AIDEWS is just an export EW suite anyway. It has very poor localization capabilities, its capability dates back to the 80s if you compare them to the French. Even the decade old French ICMS Mk4 is like a generation ahead in comparison.



Yes, it is obsolete. At least it is obsolete compared to what's coming up. If you don't replace the seeker with AESA, then it is pointless to bring to the fight, already operational EW suite within the IAF can completely destroy the effectiveness of the MS seeker, let alone the stuff that's to be inducted over the next 3 years.

And from everything I have read so far on the Chinese, they only export low grade technologies that they themselves don't induct. They are in fact worse than the Soviet Union when it comes to exporting monkey models. At least the Soviets used to induct a more advanced model of what they exported, the Chinese don't even bother doing that.



Never been banned. Thanks. Hell, I joined less than a month ago, I thought that was obvious.

Is it so @gambit that US is far behind in EW

 

[Path-Finder]

thank you for your tireless effort to educate the netizens ..your audience is much larger than the vedic brick wall you are addressing. the term vedic is not an insult but a homage to the sense of supremacy to a certain breed of our easterly neighbours who want to redraw the ..( wait for it ) map of the universe due to their awesomeness and due to that ... lack the ability for 2 way communication.

what I find entertaining is .. how much time and effort is made by these characters whose entire existence depends upon surfing the web and write against Pakistan and in cases like mere 8 F-16 or how much a relic JF-17 is. it is their reaction that has made people like me to take interest and actually admire and our JF-17 program

Very well put. demonizing others abilities is a source of strength for the vedic class.

 

[Viper0011.]

The JF-17's radar is mechanical scan. With already deployed EW technology that the IAF uses, the MS radar system is obsolete.

These are from post exercise interviews. And even during the Red Flag incident the pilot talks about how the Su-30s jammed the F-15s.

1) Where are some Technical Analysis on this? The entire world uses the F-16 and variants of the F-15 with PD/MS radars. So per you, all these are useless. Don't you think such a big discovery would be in news and LM would have to justify keeping the MS radar options, or they would come on national TV and will offer a serious futuristic radar to all their customers?

2) Again, stop the bullshiit, give me proofs and links. Not talk, I am almost ready to ask the Mods to block you as people getting into such serious issues and lying based on their effing national interests shouldn't be on here fooling the world. You can go back to your dark room and practice Vedic Yoga and imagine Virtual Reality of SU-30 jamming all American weapons. When you finish up, visit a shrink, he'll give you a pill to take every day, and it'll keep your imagination clean and clear from virtual reality. People who imagine stuff, have a medical condition called the Schizophrenia sadly!!

Regardless, you bring mechanical scan radars into a fight with India, rest assured that radar won't work.

Rest assured by who? YOU? Oh boy, you are credible like I explained above!!!! Again give me links and all. If these were such useless weapons and there were little back in 2008, why did you chickened out when you saw 75% of the PAF deployed overnight on FOB's? (this is per your air-force Chief). These radars weren't going to work so you could've had a Turkey shoot on the F-16's, the F-7's and the JF-17's?

The US is in the process of converting to an all AESA fleet. The F-16V upgrade will take care of the F-16s. The F-15s have already been upgraded to AESA.

Even IAF is moving to upgrade all possible aircraft with AESA radars. Jaguars, LCA and MKI. In the future, even the M-2000 may get an AESA upgrade.

This is not because of your stupid imagination of mighty SU's jamming American systems. Now the French coming up with Stars Wars shiit called Rafale because India has it . Its because the current technology standards from 2016-2025, is based on AESA. Just scientific advancement. Nothing more.

Even Pakistan will be upgrading their JFT's, F-16's, and whatever they get in the future, to AESA. That's just the way to go. China is actually putting AESA into everything new they are building, be it J-10C, J-11B/D's, J-15, J-16, J-20 or J-31. This is just the future. Doesn't mean the radars of today don't work!!!! By the way, Pakistan's AEW assets are ALL heavy AESA's and PESA's (Erieye and ZDK). If you fought a war in a net centric way, the JFT's or the F-16's really don't have to turn on their radar until they are very close to Indian jets to preserve their RCS. And the AEW can use their AESA's and allow them to fire passively. Not sure if you knew

General Mike Hostage has this to say. He is the commander of the Air Combat Command.

Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/...he-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/2/

Pay attention to what he's saying. You'll come to understand his true meaning vs. the one you are falsely portraying. PAY ATTENTION is the key. Not write propaganda.

Su-30's radar cannot jam. What have you been doing all this while?

You seem to have some kind of problem understanding. The F-15s and F-16s that were jammed had mechanical radars, those are susceptible to attacks. The one we want through MMRCA are AESA radars.

Let me be VERY clear, NO F-16's or F-15's radars were EVERY jammed by India. Nor does Russia possess that technology. In many wars, the US came across ALL kinds of Russian advance Radars and AD systems, including the very somehow famous S-300 (Iraqi and Syrian had it), but despite, what are the results? The US setup air supremacy in NO time. So STFU, and quit lying. People like you, should be banned on the first post due to low quality lying, manipulating the facts and doing cheap propaganda. I won't respond to any of your posts until you post valid links, technical analysis, etc!! Your posts sound as valid as my Dog barking at something at night, when we turn on the lights, there is nothing there. So give proofs, not just sheer propaganda with low quality posts filled with virtual reality from your head!!

 

[Humble Analyst]

I agree with some parts of your post but the bold part. There was a scandal in PN a few times in the past and I won't be surprised if one exists in the PAF also.

But on the MKI, its totally false to assume an MKI can fire at the JFT from 400 KM's away or the BVR option becomes useless for the JFT. The reality is, say you fired a BVR at me from 100 KM's away, and my operating base or FOB is 80 KM's away from the border (the case for Pakistan). I can turn back around and really land if I wanted to. Do you really think the BVR can find me?

Also, there are many other tactics to confused a BVR fired from that far away. I can simply turn around and fly 30-40 more KM's inside my territory, and making the missile run out of fuel with a really week lock, almost useless anyway!! The most effective lock parameter for any modern BVR is around 50-60 KM's (that's a BVR with over 100 KM range). And even then, it is suggested during training to fire two BVR's at one target to achieve a 90% kill ratio within 50-60 KM's. So there is nothing guaranteed. The best BVR kills have actually taken place way below 50 KM (or around 40 NM).

So in Pakistan and India's scenario, the MKI's massive radar is really a great advantage towards the Chinese due to hundreds of miles worth of mountains in between before you face the enemy's plane. I know for a fact that the PAF's sector commanders can watch everything inside Afghanistan, over 100 miles, and over 80 miles inside India. And these are ground radars.

In JFT and MKI's case, the PAF will scramble the JFT within 60-80 KM's of the border during hostilities with FOB's being used. Inbound MKI will be within 20-40 KM's when the scramble takes place. 10-20 KM's will pass by in acquiring lock and all and directing the aircraft towards the vector. So both the jets will be within 70-100 KM's of each other. Meaning, they will both fire their BVR's within seconds of each other. I'd suspect 2 BVR's per plane will be fired. After that, the winner is who has better radar evading tech and tactics, the distance reduces the probability as is by 20-30%.

MKI's larger RCS would pose a risk as the missile will easily obtain a lock. But its TVC and other tech gives it advanced ability to evade the missile. Thrust Vectoring is great to defeat any missile, but ONLY the first one. If there is a second missile which was fired a few seconds after the first one, it would find the MKI like a helicopter and would have no issues in hitting it as the MKI would be recovering from the Cobra or other TVC maneuvers with energy already bled and drag taking its toll for the next 30-45 seconds. But if only one missile was fired, due to MKI's larger fuel carrying capacity, it can come back into the fight after it dodges the first missile. While JFT, after out maneuver the first missile could only go home and land for refuel.

So as you can see, there are MANY variables here. Having a bigger radar gives you a bigger threat perception, but it doesn't mean that you can take down others from hundreds of KM's that easily. There are dozens of variables involved. In a BVR missile chase, both the planes have their own strengths and weaknesses, and both can evade one missile fired from over 60-70KM away easily.

A very good analysis, just a minor comment 50 km is about 27 NM and 40 statute or land miles. Bottom line JFT does need a better power plant but the question is would it need major airframe design changes to maximize the effects of a better power plant and newer radar?

 

[Viper0011.]

A very good analysis, just a minor comment 50 km is about 27 NM and 40 statute or land miles. Bottom line JFT does need a better power plant but the question is would it need major airframe design changes to maximize the effects of a better power plant and newer radar?

The air-frame has to be optimized in terms of reducing the RCS, so I think we might see something akin to that PS'd picture with curvy nose-cone vs, the current angular structure. Plus, the future airframes will use heavy composites as that's the current standard and most durable too. The block I and II have Aluminum. Which, knowing the history, makes sense to use. But that's not the future. Future with AESA will require bringing the JFT program up to date with Gripen and F-16 block 52-ish (10-20% below of course), so that the platform has future value when comparing to Western alternatives on there. So do expect changes in a lot of things, including the air-frame.

On the BVR engagements, thank you for correcting. My mind things in Miles as that's how we measure things in the US. But I try to explain in KM's so the readers can understand that better as they measure in KM's, The point was, the best BVR engagement with better no escape zone usually take places between roughly 50-60 KM or the equivalent of 25-40 NM's as that's been the standard with history proven results.

 

[Wolf]

And for further enlightenment, read this link and get an insight about the driving factors of our "top brass" and keep it in mind before taunting an "armchair bandit" for being a lowly civilian who can't reach to the high thinking of our decision makers.
Army's Budding Mansurul Haq: The Rush to Pay Extra $21m in French Deal
Army's Budding Mansurul Haq Pays Extra $21m in Hush-Hush French Deal

By M T Butt

​

ISLAMABAD, June 30: For the first time in Pakistan Army’s history, intimate details of a multi-million dollar weapons deal have been leaked to the media by angry middle ranking officers who point to a massive scandal which has already left the Ministry of Defence and most of the senior officers in the GHQ wondering how bold and blatant some people can get.


These officers have released all the details, including names, places, time and dates about the deal, raising a plethora of questions about the manner in which specialized defence equipment is being purchased in a blatantly roughshod manner, without any financial oversight. They say if no action was taken now, more details of many more scandals would also be made public including some personal scandals of Generals which many would not like.

According to an expert, who has studied Pakistan military purchases for years, such deals and over-payments are a very common occurrence in the Pakistan Army but what is new and different in this case is that the details have been leaked to the media for the first time while the deal is still in the process of being wrapped up.

“These officers cannot reconcile with the fact that an extra 21 million dollars are being paid to a French company in extra-ordinary haste and that too to buy inferior quality equipment already discarded by most countries, including Pakistan Army itself,” an E-Mail received by the South Asia Tribune disclosed.

The details of the deal are bizarre and the two top most Army Generals under General Musharraf are being named as the interested parties who are forcing the violation of all rules and regulations. Both are due to retire in 2007 and one of them may survive to become the Army Chief as well.

“This violation is happening in the Army Headquarter right now and can possibly be stopped if General Musharraf or the helpless politicians occupying the posts of the Defence Minister or the Prime Minister, intervene and stop these Generals from making quick money at the expense of national defence and even country’s exports,” a concerned official said.

According to the details, a quick fire, Restricted Tender was floated on June 17, 2005 by the Director General of Defence Purchases seeking to buy 900 Thermal Image Sight (TIS) Fire Control System Units (Pix Above) for the main Pakistani battle tanks – Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar, T-85 & T-80U.

Surprisingly for such a large purchase through Tender No: 1338/49/TISight/DGDP/PC-3B Dated 17th June, 2005, only four days were given for submission of bids. June 21 was set as the last date.

This was ostensibly done because the Weapons and Equipment Directorate (W&ED) of the Army GHQ in Rawalpindi, had already pre-qualified and short-listed two French companies, through a long process of tests, trials and final technical evaluation by the ITD-Directorate and I&E Directorates in the first week of June, 2005. So both the companies were practically ready to bid.

These companies were Sagem and Thales, the first being Europe's third largest defence and security electronics company, while Thales is France's largest military company. Adnan, son of late Maj. Gen. Jamsheed Malik represents Sagem in Pakistan while Thales is represented by a Colonel Wazir and Mr Shibli from F.A. Enterprises.

The tests and trials had included draft contract proposals, including commercial and technical offers, which were sought by the W&ED on May 24 and May 26, 2005 from these two companies. Both gave their offers and both were pre-qualified/short listed by GHQ.

Then the W&ED sent the files to DGDP for final purchase contract before June 30, 2005. DGDP floated the tender asking for bids in 4 days. Both Sagem and Thales separately submitted their technical and commercial offers on June 21 in the presence of DGDP and their own representatives.

First the technical offers were opened and evaluated by the technical departments, I&E and ITD Directorates of GHQ and after two hours both were declared technically qualified with 4 technical observations made on Sagem’s offer and 35 technical observations on Thales bid.

The most significant difference in the two offers was that Sagem bid for the Generation-3 (G-3) TIS Units while Thales offered the older Generation-2 (G-2). The Tender had asked for both types although G-2 is almost obsolete.

Why were G-2 units put on the tender is a big mystery because Pakistan Army has already been using the G-3 which are mounted on Al-Khalid tanks being manufactured by Pakistan for which Islamabad and the GHQ have been trying hard to secure export orders from the Gulf, Saudi Arabia and other countries.

The angry Army officers say G-2 units were not being mounted on Al-Khalid tanks because of integration, stabilization and target identification problems. In all the demonstrations to potential foreign buyers, the GHQ has been displaying Al-Khalid tanks with G-3 units.

Side by side, the Pakistan Air Force has upgraded all the F-16, Mirage and Helicopter Gunships with G-3 units bought in 2001 or thereafter. These were purchased from Sagem in 1997. Sagem is also the main contractor in collaboration with Kamra Avionics Company. It introduced Kamra to the international export market for which General Musharraf is said to be very proud and keeps referring to.

All NATO armies and Russians are using G-3 because it is light weight, has no payload problems on air and is more reliable than G-2. In 2002 the Pakistan Army GHQ and Weapons and Equipment Directorate decided to install G-3 in all its main battle tanks.

Sagem was also offering transfer of technology which is included in the quoted price along with state-of-the-art Technical Ugradation Package to upgrade all the existing tanks from G-2 to G-3. That in itself promises a huge export market.

Thales, on the other hand, was not even a qualified supplier until early 2004 and only Sagem was in the run. Then came General Tariq Majeed, the Chief of General Staff with his background of Military Intelligence (MI). He ordered that Thales should also be included in trials and tests which continued until November last year. More trials were done in February/March this year until Thales was pre-qualified, although it was offering only G-2 Units.

The big envelopes of bids were opened on June 21, 2005 after the technical offers of both the companies were approved. Lo and Behold, Sagem had offered each G-3 TIS unit for 59,000 Euros or a total of 53.1 million Euros (US$64.5 million) for 900 units. The price of Thales was an unbelievable 78,000 for each G-2 unit or a total of 70.2 million Euros (US$85.3 million).

On Thursday June 23, 2005, Lt. Gen. Tariq Majeed, Chief of General Staff took the decision, with the knowledge of the Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, ruling out all technical and other objections to give the contract to Thales, the highest bidder, for its inferior G-2 equipment.

His decision was given on the last day of his work as Gen Majeed proceeded the very next day on an official trip abroad.

The decision stunned many who were involved with the project. There were so many angry officers who found it unpatriotic to keep quiet. Some of them believe the use of brute authority to reward a company which did not offer competitive technology has created a big problem for General Majeed who is being likened to Admiral Mansurul Haq of Pakistan Navy, the convicted former Navy Chief who made millions in submarine purchase deals and paid off a tiny percentage to get off the hook.

The Ministry of Defence has been kept totally out of the loop in the deal. All the files were kept under control of the GS Branch headed by General Majeed. But there were other Generals heading other Directorates involved, who had to agree.

These Officers and Directorates included Director General Armored Corps, Maj. General Saeedullah Khan, DG Weapons & Equipment Directorate Maj. Gen. Ejaz Bakhshi who was assisted by Brig. Zawwar Shah. The Military Operations Directorate under Major General Yousuf and his Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar also had to approve the purchase. The ITD Directorate was also involved.

The angry officers of the Army say all these Generals and Brigadiers were put under severe pressure to approve the deal. “Maj General Ejaz Bakhshi was under tons of pressure, so was Major Gen. Yousuf but Technical Director Brig. Khalid Asghar was so terrorized he was almost crying, but he had obey the orders to keep his job and secure a pension,” one officer recalled.

The reason is that General Majeed is the senior most General after the current Vice Chief of Army Staff, General Ahsan Saleem Hayat, who retires in October 2007. General Majeed has the outside chance of becoming the Army Chief as he is due to retire on December 30, 2007 and could thus be a possible replacement of General Musharraf, if he is not kicked out earlier.

The Editor of the South Asia Tribune contacted the Thales company through its given Email on its web site to confirm the deal. An Email sent to 'tosasales@fr.thalesgroup.com' asked Thales whether it had finally got the contract from Pakistan Army of 900 Thermal Imagers at Euro 78,000 per unit for Pakistan’s Main Battle Tanks.

Thales was also requested to confirm whether the TIS Units were of Catherine-QW type, whether the imagers were Generation-2 or Generation-3 and whether Transfer of Technology (ToT) was also part of the contract. No response was immediately available from the company.

The decision to buy G-2 units from Thales has many implications for the Army and Pakistan as well. Firstly Pakistan will be paying an extra US$21 million to buy inferior grade technology which is being phased out by all the armies the world over, including the Pakistan Army.

Secondly by putting in these old Generation units, Pakistan is seriously going to compromise its export potential for Al-Khalid and other tanks as all buyers are looking for the latest technology when they purchase weapons at such a scale.

Thirdly after a few years Pakistan will in any case have to upgrade these tanks and install the new technology which would again cost a bundle to the Army and the country.

Why all this blatant favoritism is being done by some Generals is obvious but no one is still ready to give out a guess of what will happen to the new Admiral Mansurul Haq in the making.

What it, nevertheless, proves is that General Musharraf has turned a totally blind eye on whatever his key position holders in GHQ may be doing because he wants them to stay happy, healthy, wealthy and content and not challenge his authority as the Army Chief, although he has crossed his retirement age years ago.

And do we have all these installed on our current available Al Khalids? If yes, then it is a huge disservice to Pakistan and all kinds of purchases should never be a prerogative of Armed forces and its top brass, rather a new system comprising of current armed forces top brass, ex - servicemen, private consultants (local), career diplomats and bureaucrats having security clearance, reports from national and international defense experts on comparative analysis of contemporary technologies, observations of junior and mid ranking officers called in a darbaar meeting must be installed.

Unfortunately, officers of our armed forces are also a part of our nation and there is a probability of being tempted so no absolute power should be given to any individual regarding decision making. Procurement of defense equipment is a decision which reverberates for a long time and this decision must never go wrong.

 

[gambit]

The development of EW in other countries was led due to priority. The US did not develop EW tech as much because they relied on passive capabilities of stealth which is more expensive. The French and Israelis otoh decided to develop EW capabilities instead to augment stealth. The Russians are doing both.

The Israelis are self-sufficient in EW. They don't rely on the US for that. Why will they when they have better EW tech? That's why they want their own EW on the F-35.

Israel, U.S. Agree To $450 Million In F-35 EW Work | AWIN content from Aviation Week

The Israelis don't want the F-35. They think it is obsolete. They want the F-15 instead. But since the aircraft is coming through US military aid, the Israelis don't have much of a choice in the matter. The aircraft is coming for free, so no choice.

If you actually read and understand your own source, you would not have made the ridiculous argument that the Israelis thinks the F-35 is obsolete.

Here are the key sections that you glossed over in your zeal to put the F-35 in a negative light...

MADL uses six antennas providing spherical coverage around the aircraft. It use a Ku narrowband waveform employed in a “daisy chain” scheme—the first aircraft sends the directional signal to a second aircraft, then to a third aircraft, and so on.

However, relying strictly on MADL means the F-35 will not be interoperable with the rest of the IAF combat fleet, so another solution has to be found.

Basically, the F-35's intra-fleet communication system is too restrictive for Israel's needs. Not because that communication architecture is 'obsolete'.

Did you bothered to do basic research on MADL ? Most likely not.

Multifunction Advanced Data Link - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5th-To-4th Gen Fighter Comms Competition Eyed In Fiscal 2015 | Defense content from Aviation Week

Both the F-22 and F-35 can receive Link 16 signals, but doing so might compromise their location if operations require stealth.

While that aviationweek source used only the word 'receive', it actually mean that IF the F-22 and F-35 uses Link-16 as an ACTIVE TWO-WAY communication method, when there is a need to minimize radiation output, Link-16 increases the odds of giving the F-22 and/or F-35 away.

We do not want that. So why does MADL use the Ku band ?

Ku band - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As with everything in life, there are advantages and disadvantages and the Ku band is no different. We considered the advantages to be worth using the Ku band, especially when one of the advantages says this...

...the dish's size can decrease.

On an aircraft, space and weight are premium items. Between 5th gen platforms, MADL provides superior data transfer than Link-16 in terms of everything, especially target data that WILL enable cooperative attacks, aka 'ganging up', on any target and will allow the 5th gen attackers to kill their targets faster and decreased vulnerabilities from detection. Using the Ku band means having smaller antennas.

To simplify it...MADL is like having two snipers in completely trusted communication with each other while in different physical locations going after a single target.

Link-16 do not provide that level of communication and data security. Unfortunately, the Israelis need Link-16 more than they desire MADL even when they know MADL is the superior intra-fleet communication method.

The Israelis are more interested in developing and deploying a new stealth aircraft that will soon be developed in India, not the AMCA but a different aircraft. This new jet is being made for very long range and high performance combat, unlike the F-35.

The Israelis are not that stupid. Your India's FGFA program is in serious trouble, even more than our F-35. The Israelis maybe 'interested', but the F-35 came from an established 'stealth' lineage that are decades old and combat experienced.

I said the US is backward in EW. So what's with this line of argument?

That you are wrong.

 

[Dazzler]

Who says we are going to use that radar?

Firstly the radar is not 2032, that's a misconception. The Tejas Mk1 has an Indian made MS radar. And the numbers for this variant is capped at 20. They will be used for testing and training in South India. From Mk1A onwards, the radar will be the Israeli EL/M 2052 AESA.

Jaguars will be equipped with the EL/M 2052 too.

The only aircraft which will continue to use older mechanical radars will be the upgraded Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 after 2020. And out of those it is possible that even the M-2000 will get AESA.



So, it's not the JF-17 detecting the MKI, but the AWACS. So the JF-17 won't detect the MKI.

And in a USAF vs PLAAF scenario, the USAF AWACS are not expected to survive. What's so special about PAF that its AWACS will survive? Especially when it is taken for granted that the IAF has a technologically superior air force compared to the PLAAF and has a far superior numbers advantage over the PAF compared to PLAAF's disadvantage in numbers over USAF and JASDF.



The R-77 family of missiles have far surpassed even the Aim-120D. Just like how there are different variants of the Su-27, there are also different variants of the R-77. But the most advanced version is yet to enter service, should be this year. This new version has a 200+Km range and has a GaN AESA seeker.

Take your India, LCA, mki and other fantasies out of here and discuss something pertinent to the topic.

 

[Dazzler]

Jf-17 internal ecm suite and jammer...

 

[Path-Finder]

Jf-17 internal ecm suite and jammer...

Is this the Spanish ECM that is being mentioned recently?

 

[Shariq786]

The Israelis don't want the F-35. They think it is obsolete. They want the F-15 instead. But since the aircraft is coming through US military aid, the Israelis don't have much of a choice in the matter. The aircraft is coming for free, so no choice.

The Israelis are more interested in developing and deploying a new stealth aircraft that will soon be developed in India, not the AMCA but a different aircraft. This new jet is being made for very long range and high performance combat, unlike the F-35.

Basically they want the F-15 Silent Eagle or even the less developed Saudi version from the US through the aid package and want to choose India for their fifth generation fighter requirement.

Israel Prefers F-15 ‘Silent Eagles’ to More F-35s | War Is Boring


Israel Reconsidering 2008 Purchase of U.S. Jets; Cabinet Mulls Cancelling Acquisition of Flawed Fighter-Jet Rejected By Most NATO Air Forces.

So Does that mean that INDIA and Israel went ahead of US in Aircraft making field by Isrealis stealing the design of mirage and making Kafr and INDIA by the help of french design EU's EW suites and Russian engines making TEJAS these two countries got enough experience, knowledge and capability that they overtook the Americans and while the freaking AMERICANS took more than 80 years of aircraft making experience the ISRAELIS and the MIGHTY INDIA over took it in just 1/4 of the time (dumb Americans)

How ever or dear SIR " ONLY I KNOW IT ALL"
I have a question and a very serious one if you don't mind
Than why is India making alot of EW systems for SU 30 MKI's in your own country instead of buying it from RUSSIA does it also means that INDIA surpassed Russia in the EW systems and if that is true and i have to say that even PAK has some domestic systems on JFT does that means that we have surpassed CHINESE in that field too

and if F-35 is obsolute except for TEJAS and SU 30 MKI all the other aircrafts are obsolute because except few of the aircraft that are CHINESE and Russians every other aircraft uses something which has a tag of "Made in America" for there jets or for the Israel's case "Stolen from America"........

 

[randomradio]

If you actually read and understand your own source, you would not have made the ridiculous argument that the Israelis thinks the F-35 is obsolete.

Here are the key sections that you glossed over in your zeal to put the F-35 in a negative light...

You have this view from just one article. The Israelis have been very critical of many aspects of the F-35.

The reason why they want EW on their F-35s is because they don't think it is survivable in their threat environment over the next 5-10 years. And this was said back in 2012. Time's ticking fast and the F-35 is nowhere near FOC.

They are also critical about its range, payload, runway requirements. They are most critical about having to be connected to ALIS with an internet connection to the US just to keep the bird functioning. They are also critical about having to send the jet to Turkey for third line maintenance.

Israel Reconsidering 2008 Purchase of U.S. Jets; Cabinet Mulls Cancelling Acquisition of Flawed Fighter-Jet Rejected By Most NATO Air Forces

Basically, the F-35's intra-fleet communication system is too restrictive for Israel's needs. Not because that communication architecture is 'obsolete'.

I actually think the MADL is the best there is.

In fact, in none of my posts have I been critical of the MADL. I believe your argument is with the writer of the article, not me.

The Israelis are not that stupid. Your India's FGFA program is in serious trouble, even more than our F-35. The Israelis maybe 'interested', but the F-35 came from an established 'stealth' lineage that are decades old and combat experienced.

That is an incorrect observation. India has 4 stealth fighter jet programs. FGFA is one among them. The FGFA program isn't in trouble, the MoD has made the decision to go ahead with the JV. The total value of the program has increased, roughly doubled for the Russians even though it's remained the same for India. India plans to buy over 350 over its lifetime, not counting any future variants. The program was reviewed in October. And now it has been approved. HAL and Sukhoi have already finished negotiating the scale and cost of the program. Each jet is expected to cost $225M in flyaway costs. That's more than the F-22 and F-35 combined.

The second program is the IUSAV, it is a stealth flying wing UCAV.

The third is the indigenous AMCA. It's about the size of the F-15C.

Israel is interested in a completely different stealth program, that's not been publicly announced yet. That's the fourth one. It will have very high TWR, supercruise, VLO(the designer says it's at the level of the F-22 in terms of shaping), high G performance, high range, large payload etc. It is completely customizable and Israel will be involved in the development of its avionics. Its range matches the Su-30MKI.

The Israelis are buying the F-35 because it is free. And the Americans are not giving them a choice between the F-15 and the F-35, their only option is the F-35. The Israelis actually want to buy 2 additional squadrons of the F-15 and reduce the number of F-35s.

Israel Prefers F-15 ‘Silent Eagles’ to More F-35s | War Is Boring

Now, the Israelis are using the Iran nuclear deal to try and get more F-15s.

You need to look at it from their point of view also. They don't have strategic depth. Their enemies can attack their air bases with artillery guns, let alone missiles and airstrikes. So they need aircraft that can sustain operations from roads and dirt strips. The F-35's requirement for a 8000 feet runway is insane. And they also need WVR performance because of soft borders. Basically, the F-35 doesn't have the performance to fight close to their borders and doesn't have the range to reach their more distant enemies like Iran. Ultimately, the F-35 doesn't have the payload to bring the hurt to their enemies. And all that's made worse by the fact that the F-35 is still in development.

That you are wrong.

There has been no proper development of fighter based EW as a whole in the US. The F-22 uses old technologies while the F-35's EW suite was built by the British. With the exception of the radar, the F-22 or F-35 don't have any kind of EA capability. And the radar itself is restricted in the X band in the frontal hemisphere. So no 360 degree capability either.

The F-15s and F-16s use antiquated technologies with very old hardware. Other countries have gone to using GaAs and GaN.

The reason why US EW capability came up was because the Pakistanis were convinced the antiquated technologies they bought from the US for their F-16s is more than enough to handle the IAF, and that the Israelis are behind the US when it comes to fighter based EW. India uses the same EW suite the Israelis use. So I proved them wrong by saying the Israelis themselves think the F-35's EW suite is not good enough for them, forget the old export grade technologies on the F-16s given to PAF.

In fact, the Israelis are more than happy to compromise the F-35's shaping based stealth in order to increase overall survivability by using pods.
First Israeli F-35 Squadron takes shape

The United States initially refused to allow the integration of Israel’s own electronic warfare systems into the aircraft’s built-in electronic suite. However, Israel planned the introduction of a plug-and-play feature added to the main computer to allow for the use of Israeli electronics in an add-on fashion, and to fit its own external jamming pod.

Take your India, LCA, mki and other fantasies out of here and discuss something pertinent to the topic.

It is pertinent. It all started when some members used old information about Bars and compared it to the JF-17. And then they did not even take EW into account.

I have a question and a very serious one if you don't mind
Than why is India making alot of EW systems for SU 30 MKI's in your own country instead of buying it from RUSSIA does it also means that INDIA surpassed Russia in the EW systems and if that is true and i have to say that even PAK has some domestic systems on JFT does that means that we have surpassed CHINESE in that field too

and if F-35 is obsolute except for TEJAS and SU 30 MKI all the other aircrafts are obsolute because except few of the aircraft that are CHINESE and Russians every other aircraft uses something which has a tag of "Made in America" for there jets or for the Israel's case "Stolen from America"........

Why are you talking about Russia? India has been developing EW capabilities with Israel.

We have been using AESA suites since years now.
Electronic warfare suite developed for MiG-27

We have successfully integrated the present electronic warfare (EW) systems with MiG-27 fighters. It will be operational from 2011. Similarly, we’ll integrate EW systems with MiG-29 fighters and Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) by 2011. They are likely to be operational by 2012,” said Prahlada.

Look at the dark grey patterns on the LERX, just behind the refueling probe.

All that's Indian made AESA.

This article's from 2003.
Moving closer to Israel

Israel has also provided avionics and weapon systems for 40 Russian Su-30 MkI multi-role fighters India bought in the mid-1990s in addition to being one of three vendors involved in upgrading 125 MiG 21 bis fighters which are now being retrofitted at Nashik with advanced avionics and weaponry.

Israel Aircraft Industries is also closing negotiations to upgrade MiG-27 Flogger attack aircraft, Jaguars and Sea Harriers.

We do use Russian EW also, but that's on a buy and operate basis. However we have joint development with the Israelis on the EW front. In fact, the EW suite they have planned to install on the F-35 is most likely the same as what's been installed in Indian jets.

 

[Viper0011.]

You have this view from just one article. The Israelis have been very critical of many aspects of the F-35.

The reason why they want EW on their F-35s is because they don't think it is survivable in their threat environment over the next 5-10 years. And this was said back in 2012. Time's ticking fast and the F-35 is nowhere near FOC.

They are also critical about its range, payload, runway requirements. They are most critical about having to be connected to ALIS with an internet connection to the US just to keep the bird functioning. They are also critical about having to send the jet to Turkey for third line maintenance.

Israel Reconsidering 2008 Purchase of U.S. Jets; Cabinet Mulls Cancelling Acquisition of Flawed Fighter-Jet Rejected By Most NATO Air Forces

That is an incorrect observation. India has 4 stealth fighter jet programs. FGFA is one among them. The FGFA program isn't in trouble, the MoD has made the decision to go ahead with the JV.

The second program is the IUSAV, it is a stealth flying wing UCAV.

The third is the indigenous AMCA. It's about the size of the F-15C.

Israel is interested in a completely different stealth program, that's not been publicly announced yet..

Until yesterday, you were focusing on telling every one of us that US jets were old, that Indian SU-30's jammed F-15's and F-16's radars, and that the technologies such as the ones in Growler are obsolete. So are the F-35's.

Then, you explained how the Weapons India uses are SO superior like the SU-30, the French make the best avoinics as used in Rafale.

Today, you now have the four Indian stealth programs you are showing off!!!!! We ALL get the effing propaganda, but 1: go feed the 600 million people who sleep without proper beds in India, and 2: Let go of the stupid argument. You are not making sense and you have no idea about the realities and capabilities of these systems. You are talking about highly sensitive stuff that has worked every-time these jets were put to work. You've added Israel in there, just so you have a name to add and some credibility to your post (people that write crap and aren't sure about the stuff they weite, often end up looking for others to back their claims up).

Israel's main issue is MADL. Not the F-25. They have older Link-16 that works very well with their existing platforms. And that works very well within their threat perception, but its an idiotic statement to make that the F-35 is old and obsolete, when so many countries are really starting to even develop prototypes with less RCS (not real stealthy)

 

[21 Dec 2012]

Israel is interested in a completely different stealth program, that's not been publicly announced yet. That's the fourth one. It will have very high TWR, supercruise, VLO(the designer says it's at the level of the F-22 in terms of shaping), high G performance, high range, large payload etc.

Source/link?

 

[randomradio]

Until yesterday, you were focusing on telling every one of us that US jets were old, that Indian SU-30's jammed F-15's and F-16's radars, and that the technologies such as the ones in Growler are obsolete. So are the F-35's.

Then, you explained how the Weapons India uses are SO superior like the SU-30, the French make the best avoinics as used in Rafale.

Today, you now have the four Indian stealth programs you are showing off!!!!! We ALL get the effing propaganda, but 1: go feed the 600 million people who sleep without proper beds in India, and 2: Let go of the stupid argument. You are not making sense and you have no idea about the realities and capabilities of these systems. You are talking about highly sensitive stuff that has worked every-time these jets were put to work. You've added Israel in there, just so you have a name to add and some credibility to your post (people that write crap and aren't sure about the stuff they weite, often end up looking for others to back their claims up).

It's not propaganda when it's the truth. The USAF calls the F-15 and F-16 legacy platforms. That's a nice word for obsolete.

Rafale has EW capability that's way ahead compared to anybody else. They have demonstrated capabilities that no one else has. Even over Libya, the US and UK had to conduct SEAD operations before flying in. The French did not wait for SEAD, they brought in their aircraft and started hitting non-SAM targets many hours before the SEAD campaign began. They actually ignored SAMs because it didn't affect their operations. They were hitting tanks and APCs instead. And the EW suite they used at the time is old and obsolete by current 'French' standards.

Su-30 uses superior weapons because that's where the development priority has been. How many aircraft do you know that can use 5 different classes of air to air weapons? And many more when the time comes.

If you don't use AESA, you cannot beat the IAF. I think that much is clear. That's not propaganda.

And that works very well within their threat perception, but its an idiotic statement to make that the F-35 is old and obsolete, when so many countries are really starting to even develop prototypes with less RCS (not real stealthy)

Your idea that RCS is the end all of stealth is wrong. Stealth has gone far beyond passive RCS control.

Air Force: Stealth 'incredibly important' for future aircraft

"Stealth is wonderful, but you have to have more than stealth," Carlisle said at the Air Force Association Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando, Florida. "You have to have fusion, you have to have different capabilities across the spectrum.

"It will be incredibly important. It won't be the only key attribute, and it isn't today."

The Israelis have prioritized more important aspects of stealth over just passive RCS control which is slowly becoming pointless over the long term. The Israelis are in fact planning to increase F-35's stealth capabilities by relying less on its passive shaping. How confusing that must be for you.