JF-17's ECM & Design Limitations

[randomradio]

Keeping all the jibberish aside, Did you tested AIDEWS , SPECTRA and EL Jammer series ?

Yes. We tested them all. We had something called MMRCA evaluations. The competitors brought out their best guns, wearing their best uniforms and with their best salute.

How do you know AIDEWS has poor localization capabilities ?

Some important technologies that are necessary are missing. The AIDEWS is a generation behind what we evaluated in MMRCA. AIDEWS is not even solid state, so it's a generation behind in terms of hardware itself, let alone software. It uses old blade antennas.

The Americans brought in new EW technologies that they still haven't developed since they lost the deal.

Do you know USA EW and Communication devices are encrypted and requires keys to run on ? Thats why Israel insist to put their own equipment so that they dont have to be dependent on Americans for encryption keys.

No. The F-35 has very limited offensive EA capability. The Americans believe F-35's stealth is enough to beat threats, the Israelis believe otherwise, that's why they want their own EA capability.

Now it's come to the point where they think the F-35 is completely obsolete, not just in EW.

Let me put a sense into you Dual Guidance Active/Passive guidance means, If Active guidance is being jammed, The passive guidance can hom on to the jamming signal and guide itself onto enemy aircraft. So come what may If IAF awesome Indian Jammers are busy destroying active seeker of SD-10 A. Then Passive Guidance would have a field day because it would be easy peasy to lock onto the brightest source of radiation and increasing the kill probability to >95 percent.

I know what it means. New gen EA capability don't just degrade seekers, but they can even infect the systems and the subsystems using viruses. The signal processing capabilities of MS seekers are so limited that it won't even know it has been attacked, it will just fly around chasing ghosts. Even old DRFM techniques with repeater jamming can achieve that.

And there is no brightest source of radiation. The seeker can't even 'see' the jamming, it's that subtle. Just a few watts are enough, and it doesn't even have to be a constant attack, just bursts of attacks are enough. After that the missile will simply change course and either fall to the ground or self-destruct.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Iaf su30 is a normal fighter with normal 4th gen parameters

All this talk of 400km range radar is rubbish

All bvr engagements with 4th gen fighter are b/w 20 and 30 km

New gen missiles might push it to b/w 50 km range but that is it

All other Indian claims are just simply rubbish and worth no importance

Beside su-30 has a very huge RCS with clean configurations it can be seen at a very long distance by any 4th gen fighter AI radar there is no science in it

Su-30 is a good fighter but please do not waist our time by publishing false and unjustifiable information

 

[My-Analogous]

According to USAF, according to everybody else, including civilians who do military funded simulations.

Survivability of the AWACS is heavily dependent on the escort fighters around it and of course the old fashioned running away. You will be surprised how vulnerable they are.

That's the reason why FGFA will be carrying multiple radars all along its fuselage and wings for 360 degree coverage. They will replace the AWACS in anti-access areas.



The advantages the IAF has had over the last 15 years, the PLAAF is only achieving now. The future is questionable, but it doesn't change the fact that the IAF is better than the PLAAF today, so there is no question of PAF being an effective force against the IAF with their older aircraft.

You should see an interview of two PAF retired ranking officers, one of them was AM Shaheed Latif, he pointed out the conventional disparity between IAF and PAF is too high.



They are not survivable. PAF has no strategic dept. So there's no running away. MKIs can shoot down AWACS without having to cross borders.

The IAF has deployed new hypersonic air to air missiles for that purpose.



These figures for the MKI's radar are 20 years old. This was the first version that was inducted in 2000. Today's figure for a Mig-29 type fighter is well above 250Km.

The Russians have already upgraded the Bars. Now they are offering an Irbis upgrade for the versions that are yet to be built. That's separate from the AESA upgrade. The RuAF Su-30SMs have been operational with the newer Bars versions for years now.



What? There's plenty of evidence. The K-77M has dual pulse motors and a GaN AESA seeker. The Aim-120D has a MS seeker with a regular rocket motor. Dual pulse means the K-77M can boost its speed to its highest level before impact, the Aim-120D can't. Basically, the Aim-120D is also obsolete as far as the K-77M is concerned.

A prototype GaN seeker

There's also a new RAMJET version.

If the Chinese say their latest Flankers are better than the Su-35, would you believe them? The SD-10A is an old missile.



The range indicates how much more capable the missile has become using the same airframe. It's more than double that of the old RVV-AE.



Grifo S7, RC400, APG-68 etc are all obsolete radars.

The Mig-21 Bison uses the same jammer the Israelis use on all of their F-15s.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/7/27537.pdf


The Jaguar and Eastern fighters reference points to India.

The JF-17 is way too obsolete for a shooting war against the IAF. It doesn't matter what type of support it has.

Currently China is by passed Russia in term of BVR missiles and now threading US in this field. Welcome to real world and meet China and Pakistan future toy

Chinese Air-To-Air Missile Hits Targets, Spooks USAF General | Popular Science

 

[Thunder.Storm]

 

[Skywalker]

Guys after reading the recent comments by this indian member aka randomradio i am convinced that tere are quite a few more fools living in our eastern neighbour, thats quite encouraging for us, now i realized that why they are trying to re-invent the wheel.

 

[randomradio]

Iaf su30 is a normal fighter with normal 4th gen parameters

All this talk of 400km range radar is rubbish

All bvr engagements with 4th gen fighter are b/w 20 and 30 km

New gen missiles might push it to b/w 50 km range but that is it

All other Indian claims are just simply rubbish and worth no importance

Beside su-30 has a very huge RCS with clean configurations it can be seen at a very long distance by any 4th gen fighter AI radar there is no science in it

Su-30 is a good fighter but please do not waist our time by publishing false and unjustifiable information

Of course. You will bring up 20 year old figures of Bars and then claim the Su-30 will never be upgraded. Lol.

Currently China is by passed Russia in term of BVR missiles and now threading US in this field. Welcome to real world and meet China and Pakistan future toy

Chinese Air-To-Air Missile Hits Targets, Spooks USAF General | Popular Science

IAF already operates mach 6 air to air missiles.

 

[My-Analogous]

Of course. You will bring up 20 year old figures of Bars and then claim the Su-30 will never be upgraded. Lol.



IAF already operates mach 6 air to air missiles.

Grown up and read the post again. Pl15 is currently the most advance BVR missile ever tested and it make whole US made bvr missile useless. It will be operational with in 1 to two years and for the first time in the history of air dominance of US is under threat. For your correction the fastest man fighter jet top speed of mach 3.35 Lockheed YF-12. So any thing above will kill the birds and your point is totally rubish and we have to calculate many other factor as well.

 

[his5850]

This has nothing to do with AESA upgrade. That's for next decade and is part of the MLU program. I'm talking about already implemented upgrades that is part of MKI development.

Just like how the JF-17 has block upgrades, the MKI also has block upgrades. There are different versions like Mk1, Mk2 etc. And all MKIs are systematically upgraded to new versions.

There is a systematic upgrade to the back end of the Bars radar also. The HAL missions computers made for Bars were specially imported by Russia for their upgraded Bars on the Su-30SM. This upgraded Bars has a 7KW TWT, which roughly doubles range. The same upgrade has been done to Indian MKIs.

Doubling and tripling the capability of Bars is done through minor upgrades. The ultimate Bars version for PESA antennas will be the Irbis-E. Eventually a lot of MKIs will be upgraded to Irbis-E levels before they are upgraded with AESAs.

The first phase of Bars upgrade has been done and most of the MKIs will get this upgrade. The next phase will see the implementation of the Irbis-E on the Bars. This is separate from the AESA program.

This is every thing to do with AESA system because you are taking about SU-30 which use PESA system that show you have no idea what the hell are you taking This is simple AESA vs PESA

I know what it means. New gen EA capability don't just degrade seekers, but they can even infect the systems and the subsystems using viruses. The signal processing capabilities of MS seekers are so limited that it won't even know it has been attacked, it will just fly around chasing ghosts. Even old DRFM techniques with repeater jamming can achieve that.

And there is no brightest source of radiation. The seeker can't even 'see' the jamming, it's that subtle. Just a few watts are enough, and it doesn't even have to be a constant attack, just bursts of attacks are enough. After that the missile will simply change course and either fall to the ground or self-destruct.

US and every western country is using AESA System which can effect by simple virus and can be jam by few watts what?????? If that was that easy Russia would have won the cold war already and Jammer do not work like that

Let me tell tell you what is PESA and AESA

PESA Radar, there is a single main microwave frequency signal generating source. The same source signal is amplified, and then distributed and fed to each of the individual antenna, but the phase of the signal given to each antenna can be electronically varied. Therefore, by appropriately altering the phases of all the antenna elements, the radar can be made to 'point' in a particular direction (by making use of the constructive/destructive interference properties of waves).it will result in a higher amplitude combined signal, which can be processed digitally. which less Processing power and do not need very complex processor and system
The problem with these kinds of radar however, is since all the antenna are operating at a single frequency, it becomes much more easier of the enemy to detect and jam the radar beam. However, they are also much easier to build and operate

In an AESA radar use milk carton sized antenna is capable of generating its own microwave signal, as well as altering its phase so that's why there is a very less chance of jamming Another difference is that, at any given time, each of the antenna may be operating at a different frequency! Also, an AESA antenna element may change its frequency of operation around 1000's of times per second. As a result, the radar beam now does not operate at a single frequency, but rather, is a very wide band signal. As the radar energy is now spread over a huge band, instead of a precise single frequency, the enemy thinks that this signal is simply background noise and ignores it. This is why such radars are called LPI (low probability of Intercept) radars, and are used in stealth fighter jets and ships. However, such radars are more costly, require much more power, and generate lots of heat, which in turn requires sophisticated cooling systems. They also required very complex signal processing to turn all the incoming radar reflections into meaningful data.

 

[randomradio]

Grown up and read the post again. Pl15 is currently the most advance BVR missile ever tested and it make whole US made bvr missile useless. It will be operational with in 1 to two years and for the first time in the history of air dominance of US is under threat. For your correction the fastest man fighter jet top speed of mach 3.35 Lockheed YF-12. So any thing above will kill the birds and your point is totally rubish and we have to calculate many other factor as well.

PL15 is a way for China to try and catch up to already existing technologies. Based on currently circulating reports, I would say the PL15 is somewhere around the Aim-120D. We are yet to see the type of seeker and rocket motor it uses. If the seeker is AESA and has a dual pulse motor, then it could match the K-77M while exceeding the Aim-120D.

A mach 6 missile reduces time to target drastically, even more so if it is equipped with a dual pulse motor.

This is every thing to do with AESA system because you are taking about SU-30 which use PESA system that show you have no idea what the hell are you taking This is simple AESA vs PESA

You have such a poor understanding of this.

The PESA is much cheaper and quicker to upgrade since its main power source is a TWT. The AESA requires more work for upgrades to take effect. You talk as though the Su-30 has not received radar upgrades at all. Anybody who has actually followed the MKI program will tell you the Bars has been upgraded repeatedly many times. Recently, the Russians have offered the Irbis upgrade for the Bars.

And this discussion started because somebody was comparing old version of Bars with absolutely obsolete MS radars of the JF-17 without taking EW into picture. PESA is far more resilient to jamming, this was also demonstrated during Red Flag 2008. And at the same time, the IAF did not have any problems jamming radars of the F-15s and F-16s that used old MS scan radars during Cope India exercises. You need to know how badly the PAF is matched against India.

US and every western country is using AESA System which can effect by simple virus and can be jam by few watts what?????? If that was that easy Russia would have won the cold war already and Jammer do not work like that

That's exactly how a new gen jammer works. That's the reason why even the Growler is obsolete.

The AESA that were released by the US in the early 2000s were not capable of electronic attack, it is being introduced only now, particularly through the F-35. The French have been doing this for the last 10 years though, but through dedicated systems and not the radar. India has had such technology since the last few years and will get a major boost through both LCA (new tech developed in cooperation with Israel through the Mayawi program) and Rafale.

 

[Viper0011.]

And this discussion started because somebody was comparing old version of Bars with absolutely obsolete MS radars of the JF-17 without taking EW into picture. PESA is far more resilient to jamming, this was also demonstrated during Red Flag 2008. And at the same time, the IAF did not have any problems jamming radars of the F-15s and F-16s that used old MS scan radars during Cope India exercises. You need to know how badly the PAF is matched against India.

That's exactly how a new gen jammer works. That's the reason why even the Growler is obsolete.

The AESA that were released by the US in the early 2000s were not capable of electronic attack, it is being introduced only now, particularly through the F-35. The French have been doing this for the last 10 years though, but through dedicated systems and not the radar. India has had such technology since the last few years and will get a major boost through both LCA (new tech developed in cooperation with Israel through the Mayawi program) and Rafale.

Please entertain us by answering the following:

1) What makes you think the JFT's radar us "absolutely obsolete". This claim you are making is pretty big. To me, absolutely obsolete means, we are taking about Sabre jets in today's age of F-16 block 60 and F-22's era. And obviously that's absolutely obsolete, as it would not produce even 1% of the expected results. Do you think that's the case for the JFT's radar, it will not produce even 10% of the expected results? Give me facts as to why. Not statements and personal opinions that every Indian has about Pakistanis.

2) Where does it say that the US jet's radars were jammed by SU-30's BARS? I would LOVE to see a real link on it. Again, not a few sites that talk about Hindu supremacy and Vedic times. I want to see independent news showing that the US accepted that our jet's radars were jammed. Be ready to be VERY embarrassed and pissed off if you can't produce any real facts because I'd go nuts over it.

You are making this insanely serious statements like kids eat chocolates!!!! If the F-16 and F-15's radars can be jammed by anything Russian, you know what that means? More than anything, A LOT of design stuff about the American radars, which are proprietary technologies, have been compromised. I can almost assure you, in an incident like this, the US would've either grounded majority of the older fleet or announced a new upgrade plan ASAP and by now, everything would've been moved to a different advanced platform like the AESA. But the fact that the AESA development took its time, means there wasn't an urgency.

3) What makes you think the Growler is "obsolete" . In the past 3-4 decades, in any conflict the other side had both, the Western and Russian AD's, the Growlers literally jammed the day light out of all these "advanced" Russian and French AD systems and flew in without any real confrontation and established total air supremacy in no time.

So is you point really the "Indian point" aka, the Indian propaganda? That the SU-30's BARS can jam the US F-16, F-15, etc, and now the Rafale is a gift of God and the French are the top line jet makers and have the best advanced stuff? While you are still wanting the US to setup factories to build advanced F-16's or F-18's? If the later two can be jammed by you, why would you risk your defense over compromised jets ????

Yea, provide facts please. I'd really like to end this propaganda from you guys.

@Irfan Baloch : I know you've warned me a couple of times. But check this post out and the original one. There are seriously wrong claims being made and I'd like to understand were these come from as there are no legit basis for making such claims bu by the OP. So please watch out, our OP might turn crazy and a typing war might start on here.

 

[ziaulislam]

somone needs to clear the BS talk from this thread from @randomradio
@Irfan Baloch

 

[randomradio]

Please entertain us by answering the following:

1) What makes you think the JFT's radar us "absolutely obsolete".

The JF-17's radar is mechanical scan. With already deployed EW technology that the IAF uses, the MS radar system is obsolete.

2) Where does it say that the US jet's radars were jammed by SU-30's BARS?

These are from post exercise interviews. And even during the Red Flag incident the pilot talks about how the Su-30s jammed the F-15s.

Regardless, you bring mechanical scan radars into a fight with India, rest assured that radar won't work.

You are making this insanely serious statements like kids eat chocolates!!!! If the F-16 and F-15's radars can be jammed by anything Russian, you know what that means? More than anything, A LOT of design stuff about the American radars, which are proprietary technologies, have been compromised. I can almost assure you, in an incident like this, the US would've either grounded majority of the older fleet or announced a new upgrade plan ASAP and by now, everything would've been moved to a different advanced platform like the AESA. But the fact that the AESA development took its time, means there wasn't an urgency.

The US is in the process of converting to an all AESA fleet. The F-16V upgrade will take care of the F-16s. The F-15s have already been upgraded to AESA.

Even IAF is moving to upgrade all possible aircraft with AESA radars. Jaguars, LCA and MKI. In the future, even the M-2000 may get an AESA upgrade.

3) What makes you think the Growler is "obsolete" .

General Mike Hostage has this to say. He is the commander of the Air Combat Command.

Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

Growlers are not front-line aircraft for the first week of war, Hostage argues. They will be useful against a high-end opponent for the same reason that other fourth-generation aircraft such as F-15s and F-16s will be: for “volume” in the face of superior enemy numbers.

“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says.

So is you point really the "Indian point" aka, the Indian propaganda? That the SU-30's BARS can jam the US F-16, F-15, etc, and now the Rafale is a gift of God and the French are the top line jet makers and have the best advanced stuff? While you are still wanting the US to setup factories to build advanced F-16's or F-18's? If the later two can be jammed by you, why would you risk your defense over compromised jets ????

Su-30's radar cannot jam. What have you been doing all this while?

You seem to have some kind of problem understanding. The F-15s and F-16s that were jammed had mechanical radars, those are susceptible to attacks. The one we want through MMRCA are AESA radars.

JF-17 and PAF F-16s don't have AESA, so they don't have much of a chance against the IAF.

@Irfan Baloch : I know you've warned me a couple of times. But check this post out and the original one. There are seriously wrong claims being made and I'd like to understand were these come from as there are no legit basis for making such claims bu by the OP. So please watch out, our OP might turn crazy and a typing war might start on here.

It is propaganda to say the Su-30 has not been upgraded over its last 15 years of service. You are using information from 20 years ago to show something that's convenient to you.

Bars PESA has been heavily upgraded and will continue to be upgraded until the AESA upgrade. Get over it.

 

[Rain]

The JF-17's radar is mechanical scan. With already deployed EW technology that the IAF uses, the MS radar system is obsolete.



These are from post exercise interviews. And even during the Red Flag incident the pilot talks about how the Su-30s jammed the F-15s.

Regardless, you bring mechanical scan radars into a fight with India, rest assured that radar won't work.



The US is in the process of converting to an all AESA fleet. The F-16V upgrade will take care of the F-16s. The F-15s have already been upgraded to AESA.

Even IAF is moving to upgrade all possible aircraft with AESA radars. Jaguars, LCA and MKI. In the future, even the M-2000 may get an AESA upgrade.



General Mike Hostage has this to say. He is the commander of the Air Combat Command.

Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary




Su-30's radar cannot jam. What have you been doing all this while?

You seem to have some kind of problem understanding. The F-15s and F-16s that were jammed had mechanical radars, those are susceptible to attacks. The one we want through MMRCA are AESA radars.

JF-17 and PAF F-16s don't have AESA, so they don't have much of a chance against the IAF.



It is propaganda to say the Su-30 has not been upgraded over its last 15 years of service. You are using information from 20 years ago to show something that's convenient to you.

Bars PESA has been heavily upgraded and will continue to be upgraded until the AESA upgrade. Get over it.

Stupidity San Examples

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Please entertain us by answering the following:

1) What makes you think the JFT's radar us "absolutely obsolete". This claim you are making is pretty big. To me, absolutely obsolete means, we are taking about Sabre jets in today's age of F-16 block 60 and F-22's era. And obviously that's absolutely obsolete, as it would not produce even 1% of the expected results. Do you think that's the case for the JFT's radar, it will not produce even 10% of the expected results? Give me facts as to why. Not statements and personal opinions that every Indian has about Pakistanis.

2) Where does it say that the US jet's radars were jammed by SU-30's BARS? I would LOVE to see a real link on it. Again, not a few sites that talk about Hindu supremacy and Vedic times. I want to see independent news showing that the US accepted that our jet's radars were jammed. Be ready to be VERY embarrassed and pissed off if you can't produce any real facts because I'd go nuts over it.

You are making this insanely serious statements like kids eat chocolates!!!! If the F-16 and F-15's radars can be jammed by anything Russian, you know what that means? More than anything, A LOT of design stuff about the American radars, which are proprietary technologies, have been compromised. I can almost assure you, in an incident like this, the US would've either grounded majority of the older fleet or announced a new upgrade plan ASAP and by now, everything would've been moved to a different advanced platform like the AESA. But the fact that the AESA development took its time, means there wasn't an urgency.

3) What makes you think the Growler is "obsolete" . In the past 3-4 decades, in any conflict the other side had both, the Western and Russian AD's, the Growlers literally jammed the day light out of all these "advanced" Russian and French AD systems and flew in without any real confrontation and established total air supremacy in no time.

So is you point really the "Indian point" aka, the Indian propaganda? That the SU-30's BARS can jam the US F-16, F-15, etc, and now the Rafale is a gift of God and the French are the top line jet makers and have the best advanced stuff? While you are still wanting the US to setup factories to build advanced F-16's or F-18's? If the later two can be jammed by you, why would you risk your defense over compromised jets ????

Yea, provide facts please. I'd really like to end this propaganda from you guys.

@Irfan Baloch : I know you've warned me a couple of times. But check this post out and the original one. There are seriously wrong claims being made and I'd like to understand were these come from as there are no legit basis for making such claims bu by the OP. So please watch out, our OP might turn crazy and a typing war might start on here.

thank you for your tireless effort to educate the netizens ..your audience is much larger than the vedic brick wall you are addressing. the term vedic is not an insult but a homage to the sense of supremacy to a certain breed of our easterly neighbours who want to redraw the ..( wait for it ) map of the universe due to their awesomeness and due to that ... lack the ability for 2 way communication.

what I find entertaining is .. how much time and effort is made by these characters whose entire existence depends upon surfing the web and write against Pakistan and in cases like mere 8 F-16 or how much a relic JF-17 is. it is their reaction that has made people like me to take interest and actually admire and our JF-17 program

 

[PakEye]

so according to this Indian Television report tejas as equal than latest US and Russian Aircrfafts and better than Chinese Fighter jets .