JF-17B Updates, News & Discussion

[Taygibay]

Griffins mate? How about K8s?

That's your conversion aircraft!

@ Deep Blue, YVW!

Good day, Tay.

 

[undercover JIX]

MashaAllah.

 

[araz]

Hi so basically we also need B version for your own trainee so how many
We need for the training any memeber can give some info
Thank you

PAF has never openly expressed that need. It will need to see what role the twin seater plays in the greater scheme of things. If it has other utility then more will be ordered but generally not more than half to 1 squadron.
A

 

[SQ8]

PAF has never openly expressed that need. It will need to see what role the twin seater plays in the greater scheme of things. If it has other utility then more will be ordered but generally not more than half to 1 squadron.
A

Never needed it as such. The B is export oriented.

 

[Tank131]

The reality,is that until we find out how non-former F-16 pilots have done against PAF F-16s or Chinese Flankers, we wont know how effective simulation training has been. My suspicion is that it has been more effective than people may realize. Afterall PAF isnt the only airforce which does this. Even USAF trains raptor and JSF pilots on simulators AND both types are single seat.

 

[Hu Yao]

The reality,is that until we find out how non-former F-16 pilots have done against PAF F-16s or Chinese Flankers, we wont know how effective simulation training has been. My suspicion is that it has been more effective than people may realize. Afterall PAF isnt the only airforce which does this. Even USAF trains raptor and JSF pilots on simulators AND both types are single seat.

But there are still lot of small countries, like Myanmar. I don't mean Myanmar is a weak country, but their air force is really small.

Countries like this need trainers to train their new pilots, and fighters to protect their air. With JF-17B, they only need one kind of jet. Make the logistic simplier, and have more jet fighters. In additional, JF-17B could use as a LIFT jet to keep the pilots' skill.

 

[Tank131]

But there are still lot of small countries, like Myanmar. I don't mean Myanmar is a weak country, but their air force is really small.

Countries like this need trainers to train their new pilots, and fighters to protect their air. With JF-17B, they only need one kind of jet. Make the logistic simplier, and have more jet fighters. In additional, JF-17B could use as a LIFT jet to keep the pilots' skill.

No doubt. I am not suggesting that the JF-17B shouldn't exist or that it isnt useful, quite the opposite. It is necassary, esp for marketing to other countries.

 

[Readerdefence]

Pakistan now has over 100 JF-17 in service and has not needed a two seat model to train its pilots. It uses simulators and is fully emersed in that training environment. It is not likley to change that. What the role of the JF-17B will be in PAF is more likely as a strike platform and marketing platform (take up various chiefs whose services may be considering the type). Other services like Nigerian AF may be more likely to get it if they dont want, ir are unable, to fully invest into the simulator environment. But simulator training is noted to be equally effective and is far far cheaper and safer

Hi can this roleof B version be adopted for growler kind of for SEAD with less ammunition and more ECM as you have mentioned about the simulators it means paf really doesn’t need a B version for training purposes
Thanks for your reply earlier

 

[python-000]

Masha'Allah!!! They have put Pak in FATF grey list, and Pak responded with a 2-sitter which increases export potential!!! That's called the spirit!!! And, some other folks are spending all of their strategic energies to "isolate" Pak only to find adversaries' "death blows" in all spheres getting deadlier, or can't even fill one third of a squadron with indigenous birds!!! This is called Ilahi Adalet....

You are right bro,they can show there power in this small but they forger power from above (ALLAH).

 

[Taygibay]

Interesting last few posts so I can't help
but try to contribute bits to the convo :

There are two ways to train a small nation's
pilots with dual seaters _they buy the 2seater
or _the seller has them and offers formation.

In that sense, the dual seater is always export
support, however there are reasons for a 2-crew.

Aerial warfare with swing-role ACs ( AA-AtG dual
mission capable ) require a WSO to carry the
bombing with total concentration and a pilot to
keep the plane safe as well as well positioned. *

With information and sensor fusion and networking
and the likes, single pilot is possible again as in
effect, _the plane helps drive itself and fight to a
whole new degree & _your WSO has its own plane
next to yours in the patrol ( conceptual swing role ).

The strange side effect is that if such highly automated
machines can be taught to a rookie pilot via simulation,
that newbie has to be formed better than before just to
use it and so learn effectively. As such, really smaller
nations could find it hard to support the simulators!!!

And in another side effect or rather a trickle down from
the one mentioned, more than one fast jet training course
around the world jumps from PC-21s to the real thing ...
precisely because the tactical teachings matter more than
the flying, because the 3 [ PC-sim-AC ] have similar simulations?

And those Pilatus are dual seaters!

And great day all, Tay.

* EW as mentioned in prior posts replaces the WSO's
. activity but his duties and thus need remain.

 

[MastanKhan]

Interesting last few posts so I can't help
but try to contribute bits to the convo :

There are two ways to train a small nation's
pilot with dual seaters _they buy the 2seater
or _the seller has them and offers formation.

In that sense, the dual seater is always export
support, however there are reasons for a 2-crew.

Aerial warfare with swing-role ACs ( AA-AtG dual
mission capable ) require a WSO to carry the
bombing with total concentration and a pilot to
keep the plane safe as well as well positioned. *

With information and sensor fusion and networking
and the likes, single pilot is possible again as in
effect, _the plane helps drive itself and fight to a
whole new degree & _your WSO has its own plane
next to yours in the patrol ( conceptual swing role ).

The strange side effect is that if such highly automated
machines can be taught to a rookie pilot via simulation,
that newbie has to be formed better than before just to
use it and so learn effectively. As such, really smaller
nations could find it hard to support the simulators!!!

And in another side effect or rather a trickle down from
the one mentioned, more than one fast jet training course
around the world jumps from PC-21s to the real thing ...
precisely because the tactical teachings matter more than
the flying, because the 3 [ PC-sim-AC ] have similar simulations?

And those Pilatus are dual seaters!

And great day all, Tay.

* EW as mentioned in prior posts replaces the WSO's
. activity but his duties and thus need remain.

Hi,

Utility of a machine is a frame of mind---.

Just like a Paf Pilot says---if it cannot do 9 g's---it is not worth it---even though he is evaluating a strike aircraft like the JH7---for bombing missions---.

Paf got caught in its own arrogance of self grandiose---and they tried to push the buyer in that direction without understanding the significance of a ' drastic change ' from the norm.

People don't like change---if you want to sell them---give them what they want and not what you seem to be fit for them.

 

[Cuirassier]

JF-17B can be used to replace that OCU sqd. of F7Ps, if we follow the No.5 sqd layout. 12 single seater F-16Cs and 6 double seater F-16Ds. It is speculated that PAC will produce some 12 more Block II units, thus we can use these with 6 JF-17Bs to re-equip the OCU sqd. Rest Bs can be marketed for export.
Plus these dual seaters can act as ground strike specialised jets with WSOs, so you can change the role of No.18 from OCU to somewhat similar as the No.19 at Bholari.

 

[Taygibay]

Hi, ---if you want to sell them---give them what they want and not what you seem to be fit for them.

Well, I'm selling nothing and if I was in the PAK Govt,
I'd get them what the nation needs and can afford &
if they don't like the tools, they can change f,,,g jobs!

If infinite cash no matter the risk, all solutions gotten.
If finite cash and infinite risk, choice of best solutions.
If finite cash and finite risk, choice of good solutions.
If finite cash and low risk, choice of affordable solutions.
If finite cash and no risk : Liechtenstein

[ No AF, no armed forces, 125 strong police. ]
​

If I get my AF, 2 dozen MiG 35, 3 dozen Frogfoot and
the rest in SuperTucanos or AT-6s / turboprop COIN
aircrafts and the pilots are too proud, they can go
drive a nazar battu truck on some forsaken highway
and we'll give the job to a willing youngster.

That way, some cash is left to educate people in hope of
reducing the frequency of such prima donnas in the land.

Grrrr and good day mate, Tay.

 

[Yasser76]

Long time reader, rare poster. People need to get over the obsession with needing a dedicated 2 person strike aircraft, having two eyes is handy for strike but the whole notion of needing an F-16I Sufa or F-15E type version of JF-17 is not really a massive urgency for PAF and takes away much from PAF traditional thinking, which is to develop an air defence force par excellence. Yes, there is a requirement to take out nearby enemy airfields, but you will not see PAF doing regular long range, high intensity precision strike on Easter IAF bases, nor would the PAF want to. These jobs require a F-16I/F-15E and two pilots to handle work load and fatigue, hence why Israel, Saudi, and US use them. These are also expensive assets to procure and maintain and resource (two pilots).

You will notice that even top air forces like RAF, Luftwaffe, Swedish and Turkey are going to way of single seat for strike, mainly technology has enabled a single pilot to do the job (hence why F-35 is replacing two seat Tornado and F-15E) but also if pilot is striking short distance say 300 miles away max, likely hood he will be briefed on the terrain, carried out simulated missions and have plenty of nearby support (Erieye and Falcon 20). Erieye operator can act as his back seat guy.

In this scenario, missions will be short 3 hours max, range not long and JF-17 and F-16 pilots will be equipped with all weather precision pods and LGBS. AS I said, great having two eyeballs but simply not worth the extra cost.

PAF will be committing suicide if we keep sending souped up two seater JF-17s/F-16Ds needing their own EW pods, radar support, ECM and CFTS/Refuelling in order to hit Kailakunda or Andamans every night.

Better wipe out IAF Western command, secure Pakistan air space and then help Pak Army send Indian Army back to the age of Mahabharat.

For these medium sized single seaters optimised for air defence and strike are perfect, and this is what PAF is focusing on.

Obviously export customers may require two seater and further down the line we may need Maritime fighter but that is a different story

 

[deep_blue]

Griffins mate? How about K8s?

That's your conversion aircraft!

@ Deep Blue, YVW!

Good day, Tay.

VMT sir