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JF-17 with AESA radar and helmet mounted system and the PL-15 misile will replace F16 as top jet ?

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Guys there's a question that keeps bugging me | what if the Saab had won the contract to provide IAF 110 Gripen E. Considering their exceptional attributes - avionics and EW related, don't you think they would have really troubled PAF. Bear in mind that during the RED FLAG exercises they outperformed USAF Vipers and on several occasions sneaked up on F22s which is quite something. On top of that they have been designed in a way that they require minimal maintenance, can take off from a 600m runway and are meteor equipped too. Dont you think this would have helped alleviate IAF maintenance problems and a larger % of planes would have been available at any given time?! @messiach @Oscar @Quwa
Indeed, it would've helped by spades, but the biggest issue with the Gripen at this time is that it overlaps with the Tejas in specifications. The forthcoming Tejas Mk2 is a Gripen NG level jet. Moreover, I think the US industry has a lead in India right now, the tender is really between Boeing and Dassault.

The irony here is that the Gripen E/F (NG) also, in theory, fits with the PAF's needs. It has more range and payload than the JF-17 at this time, and the PAF can opt for a non-US radar and avionics suite via Leonardo. It can, if it has the money, even integrate its own SOWs. @Oscar Pakistan's rep was a big reason why Stockholm was hesitant to let a big arms deal move through, but if IK can keep it up for 2 terms, that might change.
 
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Indeed, it would've helped by spades, but the biggest issue with the Gripen at this time is that it overlaps with the Tejas in specifications. The forthcoming Tejas Mk2 is a Gripen NG level jet. Moreover, I think the US industry has a lead in India right now, the tender is really between Boeing and Dassault.

The irony here is that the Gripen E/F (NG) also, in theory, fits with the PAF's needs. It has more range and payload than the JF-17 at this time, and the PAF can opt for a non-US radar and avionics suite via Leonardo. It can, if it has the money, even integrate its own SOWs. @Oscar Pakistan's rep was a big reason why Stockholm was hesitant to let a big arms deal move through, but if IK can keep it up for 2 terms, that might change.


I have read quite a few reports and editorials in int'l magazines, some by USAF Viper pilots who were very impressed with the plane.
But isnt Gripen E too small compared to Rafale. I think less hard points and load carrying capacity too. Will we be able to afford it? If we go for 3 sqdns can we ask for complete ToT? Will help is a lot in Prokect Azms avionics imo.
 
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I have read quite a few reports and editorials in int'l magazines, some by USAF Viper pilots who were very impressed with the plane.
But isnt Gripen E too small compared to Rafale. I think less hard points and load carrying capacity too. Will we be able to afford it? If we go for 3 sqdns can we ask for complete ToT? Will help is a lot in Prokect Azms avionics imo.
To be clear, I don't think the PAF would go for any big imports (aside from maybe China), I was just saying that the Gripen E/F could make for a good fit. It's certainly a lower cost way of getting the MBDA Meteor than say the Typhoon or Rafale, for example.
 
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Interesting

According to Bratislava, the costs for ten years of operation are approximately the same for the F-16 and Gripen.

https://www.armadninoviny.cz/potvrzeno-slovensko-kupuje-stihacky-f-16-block-7072.html
According to the Norwegian Government, the Gripen would have been more expensive, even if SAAB had given away all the 52 Gripens free of charge. When a decision is made on political grounds, all kinds of bogus arguments are applied.

In the Norwegian case, they wanted to sell a missile to the USAF.
That would only happen, if they selected the F-35.
They could only convince the politicians by faking the tender.
 
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USA defense industry is focused on the F-35....the F-16 production line is close to its end. I'm not sure all the terms on the F-16 from the Americans..but we fly them for as long as possible. If allowed, we develop an in house overhaul & upgrade program like mirage rose...so we may be able to keep them flying for some time. And even acquire used ones from other nations to build our fleet. The tech developed for JF-17 can be used as part of an F-16 rose initiative.



Sorry but Chinese technology has developed a lot. They may even over take the USA....Trump actually cut funding for basic science and technology development.
On the first paragraph you will not be allowed to change anything on the 16s. Period. if the Israelis were not allowed you are no where on their priority list.
No one denies Chinese technology has developed immensely and their products are really coming up tops in the world. However there is a 100 years of aviation history and industrial development behind the US industrial juggernaut. This remains unparalleled even today. As I said earlier which none of our wise posters picked up is that a product could be comparable(ie within certain parameters) but there is a vast world between being comparable and at par and better. China, as much as I admire their progress, is not there yet and probably will not be there in another 10 to 20 years. This is the latency between the developing and the developed that unfortunately exists to date.
A

They 'almost' halted production of F-16 variants, got bored, and churned out cutting-edge F-16 Block 70/72 consequently. New orders incoming. Now they are like oh well.... :lol:

Yes, F-16 fleet of PAF is not going anywhere anytime soon after MLU upgrades and induction of 18 x Block 52+ variants. These aircraft have their own set of advantages with no substitute around the corner.

In fact, PAF should take a look at Block 70/72 variants as well - superb birds by any measure.

screenshot-www-lockheedmartin-com-2018-11-11-17-32-16.png


Slovakian assessment of F-16 Block 70/72 variants: https://www.armadninoviny.cz/potvrzeno-slovensko-kupuje-stihacky-f-16-block-7072.html?stranka=4

Completely outclassed the latest Gripen JAS-39 C in competition.
I think PAFs love affair with the 16s might be confined to getting older model 16/15 or 16/20s. Strategic reallignment means no further newer products will make thier way into PAF.
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Real answer of OP's question will come to the fore only after emergence of Block-III. But I think there is going to be serious changes as preliminary design phase took some 2 and half years as per EX-ACM and media reports. Giving the geopolitical flux, it will be only wise to assume that PAF has concluded that all other options except China are non-available as far as modern combat aircarft acquisition are concerned. Money is not the only problem, think is after geostrategic partnership between India and the US, no western country wants to sell high-tech weapons to Pakistan. So, PAF taken this as blessing in disguise and decided to give JF-17 a big leap forward to emerge with a plane which will work as mainstay of PAF till Project Azm materialized (in 15-20 Years).
The only point I want to add to your very good post is that the design alterations pertained to changes incorporated to house the AESA and consequent alterations which were needed. To date we are waiting to hear about the incorporation of a chin mounted hardpoint for the Pods. I think externally this might be the only change that we will see. But as you said let the proof be in the pudding.
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JF 17 will be better becuase for american systems we need american sub systems but for JFT we can have as many options as we like and add to that cost factor too.

With time JFT will acquire combat experience and new tech. too, so great future ahead and sixteens not so great coz right now it seems we cant get more american weapons to use sixtteens
 
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Real answer of OP's question will come to the fore only after emergence of Block-III. But I think there is going to be serious changes as preliminary design phase took some 2 and half years as per EX-ACM and media reports. Giving the geopolitical flux, it will be only wise to assume that PAF has concluded that all other options except China are non-available as far as modern combat aircarft acquisition are concerned. Money is not the only problem, think is after geostrategic partnership between India and the US, no western country wants to sell high-tech weapons to Pakistan. So, PAF taken this as blessing in disguise and decided to give JF-17 a big leap forward to emerge with a plane which will work as mainstay of PAF till Project Azm materialized (in 15-20 Years).
After 2-27, it's almost certain that no top gears for Pak from the "Usual Suspects"....

However, if one door gets closed, ten new ones open up by HIS permission....

recent Shaheen Exe. have changed that......Now Blk3 will grow like J10c, it will have ITS capabilities and technology.

This is F16VBlk72 plus stuff.......Blk52 are good but not the destiny.....Current JF17 Blk2 is already on the level of F16Blk40/45.

With the Eo/I and other sensors it is receiving with that AIM9X standard Chinese equivalent with 90 degree kill probability just like Aim9x besides much talked abt AESA (able to operate in even extreme EW environment with atleast 170km range) PL15 standard ultra range BVR.......then IRST and other things etc etc, with even more smarter air to ground munition which r already developing for Project Azm along with our own 5th gen class A-to-A missiles (both WVR and BVR; Hint Aviation City)......these will be first inducted and tested on this very platform too mister. these Air to Ground munitions that r still secret are the main reason why the weight is being reduced on Blk3 and more hardpoints r installed. Expect more SOW weapons including cruise missiles on par with American and Chinese current class. This new ''smart bomb'' testing from CURRENT BLK2 JF17 is also a clue for you to whats Blk3 is about to carry infront of S400s and Rafales....U need to keep in mind Pakistan also saying early this year or late last year that Pakistan CAN counter S400 on its own through conventional means(u can read whatever is written abt that in media as well) this is another HINT for u.

U take this all together, and then look at the best u have right now ie Blk52, i let that to yr judgement.

ALWAYS REMEMBER; like Sohail Aman had said in 2015/16 Blk3 is being made keeping in mind the joint Rafale and S400 threat environment. And India is going to receive Rafale in September and S400 in october this year or next year. Blk52 is NOTHING even for poorly trained pilots of IAF in a joint S400-Rafale advantage that they will have starting september 2019.

Pakistan is a Monster, whom against these Superpower even couldnt go anything abt then what makes u think this India and its tiny master Israel's technologies and its even more incompetent soldiers will?

The only thing in past that we lacked was Technology(as u can see we made their Israeli missiles blow up their own helicopter etc) and we are fulfilling that ''lack'', question is has israel or india even did bothered to full fill their ''lack'' ie human proficiency? and technology can never be a substitute for that.:azn:

So bottomline is Blk3 is being made to counter successfully the joint thread posed by Rafale and S400 and Blk52 is no where close to her in both technology wise and capability wise. Performance wise a few individual systems like its APG V9 radar may still lock its enemies better not break it or a few other individual aspects, but still in the end of the day APG V9's overall capabilities are still limited against an AESA radar of Blk3. If American did gave their Sabr AESA then i may still have agreed with u on the RADAR front atleast.

But this is not the case and thats why i said that if F16s dont get update they will be replace by Project azm and Blk5/6 in next 10 years starting 2030/32

Its upto the American ego that they want to salvage their dying weapons industry or not by giving a country which has realistic chance to use them in an actual hostile environment and give their weapons much needed publicity in 21st century which their Tiny friend Israel failed to give when its F16I the most advanced outside America's own F16 was shot down by mere air defence of Syrian Army an year ago by using a mere S200 of old soviat 60s era.

@LeGenD we no longer need to degrade us or hide our capabilities as the changing geopolitics are proving to be and 27 feb has left no doubt about it, Its THEY WHO NEED US NOT US WHEN WE HAVE SOMETHING FAR BETTER COMING WHO IS ALSO BATTLE PROVEN. And Pakistan is not going to wait forever, hence the early retirement plans of F16s in next 10 years.

''JF17 keeps us very busy, but it is our DESTINY'' Sohail Aman...... as u can see its not Blk52.

U have outdated mindset and information.

blk4,5,6 are all planned.......Blk4 will be semi stealth version which was originally planned for Blk3
A bird in hand is worth 100 with the Bush...
 
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Bhai.
These are fighter jets not race horses that there is one two or three . These are fighters and they have designated roles. These roles may or may not be interchangeable. So whereas the Thunders have their own roles so do the Mirages and F16s.
A

Spot on.

JF-17 is good to replace all PAF inventory other than F-16 & Mirages. F-16 can be replaced by Project AZM (Let's see) but right now PAF don't have any true replacement for Mirages (role and tactics in which PAF using them).
 
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I am a Vietnamese, I can consider neutrality, I am only interested in weapons and technology, ignore politics (although I do not like Chinese policy)

JF-17 Block 3 can perfectly match F-16E Block 70, F-16V or F-21 depending on how you call. Compare radar

JF-17 Blk 3 Equipped with the AESA KLJ-7A radar, it was announced that it had a range of 170km

F-16V Equipped with the AESA APG-83 radar, it was announced that it had a range of 120km
https://fighterjetsworld.com/weekly...over-other-4th-generation-fighters-jets/2365/

Thus the ability to BVR: JF-17 Blk 3 > F-16V
AIM-120D missiles are of course far less than PL-15 (160km vs 200km)
https://www.iiss.org/publications/the-military-balance/the-military-balance-2018/mb2018-01-essays-1

In terms of maneuverability, I heard immediately on this forum someone said that JF-17 Block 2 is not inferior to F-16 Block 50/52. Moreover, the JF-17 and F-16 share a similar design of the Ye-8 and the Soviet MiG-33 Project. Of course they don't have much difference. Also JF-17 is lighter than the F-16 and equipped with HMDS, it will have an advantage in WVR better than the F-16, as for rotation, turn, climb and high drag is more agile

jf-17-f-16-e1424960116945.jpg


Some American fans are always the electronic technical default of Russia and China is garbage, I want to say that stopping that thought by Russian, Chinese or even Iranian weapons can affect the United States. Let's see the outdated Soviet missiles that can shoot down F-15s in Yemen (and F117 was shot down by S125, The Su-24M interferes and jammer on the Aegis) or the old China's anti-tank missiles that can fire M1A1 tanks in Iraq (and Chinese submarines emerged right next to the US carrier fleet in 2006 and 2009). Iranians can even hack into the RQ-170's system and force it to land

NATO's electronic technology and stealth are the lord, just a fairy tale

U3KODJ6745FXBJPWZ6VCZZGEEY.jpg


JF-17 Block 2 on February 27, 2019 passed the anti-air SPYDER barrier, an Israeli technology according to NATO standards and carried out an attack on India, which is certainly F-16C Block 52. hard to do same thing.

If JF-17 is based on Chinese technology as garbage, why can't SPYDER shoot it down? JF-17 is not invisibility, it relies only on ECM pod for safety, so in this regard the Chinese ECM jammer pod has really exerted efficiency before NATO technology.

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1.jpg

DwEtuZ0WwAIhEIT.jpg
 
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I am a Vietnamese, I can consider neutrality, I am only interested in weapons and technology, ignore politics (although I do not like Chinese policy)

JF-17 Block 3 can perfectly match F-16E Block 70, F-16V or F-21 depending on how you call. Compare radar

JF-17 Blk 3 Equipped with the AESA KLJ-7A radar, it was announced that it had a range of 170km

F-16V Equipped with the AESA APG-83 radar, it was announced that it had a range of 120km
https://fighterjetsworld.com/weekly...over-other-4th-generation-fighters-jets/2365/

Thus the ability to BVR: JF-17 Blk 3 > F-16V
AIM-120D missiles are of course far less than PL-15 (160km vs 200km)
https://www.iiss.org/publications/the-military-balance/the-military-balance-2018/mb2018-01-essays-1

In terms of maneuverability, I heard immediately on this forum someone said that JF-17 Block 2 is not inferior to F-16 Block 50/52. Moreover, the JF-17 and F-16 share a similar design of the Ye-8 and the Soviet MiG-33 Project. Of course they don't have much difference. Also JF-17 is lighter than the F-16 and equipped with HMDS, it will have an advantage in WVR better than the F-16, as for rotation, turn, climb and high drag is more agile

jf-17-f-16-e1424960116945.jpg


Some American fans are always the electronic technical default of Russia and China is garbage, I want to say that stopping that thought by Russian, Chinese or even Iranian weapons can affect the United States. Let's see the outdated Soviet missiles that can shoot down F-15s in Yemen (and F117 was shot down by S125, The Su-24M interferes and jammer on the Aegis) or the old China's anti-tank missiles that can fire M1A1 tanks in Iraq (and Chinese submarines emerged right next to the US carrier fleet in 2006 and 2009). Iranians can even hack into the RQ-170's system and force it to land

NATO's electronic technology and stealth are the lord, just a fairy tale

U3KODJ6745FXBJPWZ6VCZZGEEY.jpg


JF-17 Block 2 on February 27, 2019 passed the anti-air SPYDER barrier, an Israeli technology according to NATO standards and carried out an attack on India, which is certainly F-16C Block 52. hard to do same thing.

If JF-17 is based on Chinese technology as garbage, why can't SPYDER shoot it down? JF-17 is not invisibility, it relies only on ECM pod for safety, so in this regard the Chinese ECM jammer pod has really exerted efficiency before NATO technology.

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1.jpg

DwEtuZ0WwAIhEIT.jpg
For the APG-83, the range of 120km does not give the target RCS. You might want to used the range 160km given by the Slovakian report since it specifies a 2sqm target, hence it is a better defined figure.
 
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Spot on.

JF-17 is good to replace all PAF inventory other than F-16 & Mirages. F-16 can be replaced by Project AZM (Let's see) but right now PAF don't have any true replacement for Mirages (role and tactics in which PAF using them).
??Possibly J10 C.
A
 
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