JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[his5850]

will JF-17 block 3 be coming with new engine??

 

[MastanKhan]

will JF-17 block 3 be coming with new engine??

Hi,

There is a very good chance that it will---.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

People get sticker shock when they see a Rafale or Typhoon contract exceed $250m a plane, but that cost actually includes maintenance. Do you have a concrete understanding of how many years?

Its about hours. Russian Engine could be around typical 4000 hours total life, while the western engine total life would be 40,000 hours. The western engines are cheaper, more reliable, and more repairable by all standards. Russian hardware is rugged nonetheless, but not as cheap as it was originally conceived for the warsaw bloc. Case in point, MI-17 was 2 million dollars back in our day, now 17 million. Decision makers end up buying western helicopters as the heli is not worth 17. These are not easy decisions to make, and look very simple on discussion boards.

 

[The Accountant]

Its about hours. Russian Engine could be around typical 4000 hours total life, while the western engine total life would be 40,000 hours. The western engines are cheaper, more reliable, and more repairable by all standards. Russian hardware is rugged nonetheless, but not as cheap as it was originally conceived for the warsaw bloc. Case in point, MI-17 was 2 million dollars back in our day, now 17 million. Decision makers end up buying western helicopters as the heli is not worth 17. These are not easy decisions to make, and look very simple on discussion boards.

Yes agreed, the most important aspect is life cycle cost but given that life of these assets is spread around decades and requires lot of future updates which changes the platform in its entirety means correct estimation of life cycle cost is almost impossible ...

Is there any information available on Chinese engines in development ? Logically they are more likely to be following Russian methodology of manufacturing but whats the life cycle of indigenous Chinese engines in J10s?

 

[araz]

Its about hours. Russian Engine could be around typical 4000 hours total life, while the western engine total life would be 40,000 hours. The western engines are cheaper, more reliable, and more repairable by all standards. Russian hardware is rugged nonetheless, but not as cheap as it was originally conceived for the warsaw bloc. Case in point, MI-17 was 2 million dollars back in our day, now 17 million. Decision makers end up buying western helicopters as the heli is not worth 17. These are not easy decisions to make, and look very simple on discussion boards.

Interesting point. I looked at the price of the RD93 and the EJ200. The former was quoted at 2.5 million and the latter at 12.5 million.However when you are looking at 4000 hours total life vs 40000 hours the Maths starts making sense. Which makes me ask the next question that if it was the case why did we go for the RD series in the first place when the prospect of 2-500 engines would have enticed anyone into selling.
A

 

[The Accountant]

Interesting point. I looked at the price of the RD93 and the EJ200. The former was quoted at 2.5 million and the latter at 12.5 million.However when you are looking at 4000 hours total life vs 40000 hours the Maths starts making sense. Which makes me ask the next question that if it was the case why did we go for the RD series in the first place when the prospect of 2-500 engines would have enticed anyone into selling.
A

I think it was to avoid risk of sanctions ...

 

[araz]

I think it was to avoid risk of sanctions ...

The risk remains even with the RD series. Was theEJ200ever for sale to the PAF?
A

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

However when you are looking at 4000 hours total life vs 40000 hours the Maths starts making sense.

I doubt that the difference could be so massive.
The RD33 on Indian MiG29 had 2000Hr life.
The current RD33 Series 3 on the MiG29 "UPG" has a 4000 Hr life.
The GE F404 IN20 on the Tejas has a life of 8000 Hr.
(From memory)
And the most advanced engine from the family which is on the Indian Navy's MiG29K/KuB has a few problems:

The CAG report says that since the MiG-29K plane was inducted in 2010, more than half of its engines have been diagnosed with design-related defects. "The issue had serious flight safety implications, since in-flight engine defects had led to ten cases of single engine landings," the report says.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/1000...r-fails-navys-main-fighter-jet-mig-29-1437329

Arun Prakash, who served as chief of the Indian Naval Staff, evaluated the aircraft in 1999 before the purchase from Russia. The retired admiral said: "There are the only two fighters — MiG-29K and Sukhoi-33 — in the world capable of operations from a Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery, a system used for the launch and recovery of aircraft from the deck of an aircraft carrier like INS Vikramaditya. There is no better fighter available to replace the MiG-29K."

However, Prakash is highly critical of what he called the "lethargy" by the Russians in the manufacturing and maintenance of the aircraft.

On problems with the engine, the CAG report said: "Since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (62 percent) of twin-engined MiG-29K have been withdrawn from service/rejected due to design-related defects."

The roots of these problems (serviceability and defects) lie in the extremely poor quality control in the Russian military-industrial complex and dismal product support being rendered by the Russian industry to the Indian Navy for the past 25 years," Prakash said. "This is in spite of the fact that the development of the MiG-29K has been totally funded by the Indian Navy."

On how the aircraft could affect combat worthiness of the Navy, the CAG report said: "The service life of MiG -29K is 6,000 hours or 25 years (whichever is earlier) but the deficiencies and snags in the aircraft is likely to reduce the operational life of the aircraft, thereby affecting combat worthiness of [the Indian] Navy."

Detailing the defects of the engine on MiG-29K, the report noted that "even as the RD-33 MK engine (mounted on MiG-29K) was considered an advancement over the engine of the MiG-29, its reliability remains questionable."

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...india-mig-29k-aircraft-navy-defects/88510782/

 

[HRK]

Interesting point. I looked at the price of the RD93 and the EJ200. The former was quoted at 2.5 million and the latter at 12.5 million.

RD-93 Import cost is $ 4.1 million in 2015-16

Which makes me ask the next question that if it was the case why did we go for the RD series in the first place when the prospect of 2-500 engines would have enticed anyone into selling.

might be because of political risks associated with EJ-200 were more than Rd-93 engine.

 

[Mrc]

If 17 block 3 is going to rock our enemies out .... don't worry guys ... (on gut feeling)

 

[The Accountant]

The risk remains even with the RD series. Was theEJ200ever for sale to the PAF?
A

Yes but russians are less hypocriate than west ... russians are creep in their own way but not hypcriate ... so risk of sanctions are much lesser in case of russia ...

 

[Readerdefence]

Hi

Yes but russians are less hypocriate than west ... russians are creep in their own way but not hypcriate ... so risk of sanctions are much lesser in case of russia ...

beside less hypocrite they don't want to loose business and may be to divert Chinese to pay less advancement towards WS series for jf17 now here I'm not saying china doesn't want to stride in engine development but they will pay more attention towards WS series for other J series fighters
Thx

 

[volatile]

There is a possibility after service life of 4000 Hrs RD -93 will be discarded and by the time

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-engine-development.t252/page-356

Chinese WS will be ready remmember later share the same development other than change in gearbox position. Thunder emerges in the hour of need and whatever was available to supplement the growing need for replacing Mirages /F7 . Just imagine if we were to wait for WS or European options we would have been 10 years more late probably the project would have died just like LCA.

In my view first MLU will incorporate any other option in terms of engine ,block 3 will fly with the same RD series .

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/pakistan-to-stick-with-russian-engine-for-jf-17-fighter-jet/

Another option PAC is looking for training personnel in overhauling and mantainenance of RD series also indicates long term prospects of Russian engines in Pakistan

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201511121029973347-pakistan-russia-engines/

 

[Rocky rock]

Could anyone please share "Full thrust" picture of "JF-17 thunder" or any video? Thanks!

 

[khanasifm]

There is a possibility after service life of 4000 Hrs RD -93 will be discarded and by the time

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-engine-development.t252/page-356

Chinese WS will be ready remmember later share the same development other than change in gearbox position. Thunder emerges in the hour of need and whatever was available to supplement the growing need for replacing Mirages /F7 . Just imagine if we were to wait for WS or European options we would have been 10 years more late probably the project would have died just like LCA.

In my view first MLU will incorporate any other option in terms of engine ,block 3 will fly with the same RD series .

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/pakistan-to-stick-with-russian-engine-for-jf-17-fighter-jet/

Another option PAC is looking for training personnel in overhauling and mantainenance of RD series also indicates long term prospects of Russian engines in Pakistan

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201511121029973347-pakistan-russia-engines/

This is old new first rd93 already overhauled in country there was a patch which team wears on their coveralls