JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[ziaulislam]

Interesting point. I looked at the price of the RD93 and the EJ200. The former was quoted at 2.5 million and the latter at 12.5 million.However when you are looking at 4000 hours total life vs 40000 hours the Maths starts making sense. Which makes me ask the next question that if it was the case why did we go for the RD series in the first place when the prospect of 2-500 engines would have enticed anyone into selling.
A

to me it doesn't make sense
the air frame of an aircraft last about 4000 hours standard, yes it can be upgraded to 8000 hours but that is essentially rebuild of all the wings and tails just keeping the fuselage.
so assuming thunder will go to full 8000 hrs and assuming that rd 93 cannot be over hauled beyond 4000hrs, than rd 93 even if replaced will cost 5 million(2x2.5) vs 12 million. now this doesnt include maintenance cost

 

[Thorough Pro]

I would rather go with two RD-93's for each thunder at 5m, instead of one EJ2000 for 12.5m. 0 down time during engine overhaul.

Interesting point. I looked at the price of the RD93 and the EJ200. The former was quoted at 2.5 million and the latter at 12.5 million.However when you are looking at 4000 hours total life vs 40000 hours the Maths starts making sense. Which makes me ask the next question that if it was the case why did we go for the RD series in the first place when the prospect of 2-500 engines would have enticed anyone into selling.
A

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Interesting point. I looked at the price of the RD93 and the EJ200. The former was quoted at 2.5 million and the latter at 12.5 million.However when you are looking at 4000 hours total life vs 40000 hours the Maths starts making sense. Which makes me ask the next question that if it was the case why did we go for the RD series in the first place when the prospect of 2-500 engines would have enticed anyone into selling.
A

When grumman walked out of the project, russians came in with their Mig-33 design. With tier design came their engine.

to me it doesn't make sense
the air frame of an aircraft last about 4000 hours standard, yes it can be upgraded to 8000 hours but that is essentially rebuild of all the wings and tails just keeping the fuselage.
so assuming thunder will go to full 8000 hrs and assuming that rd 93 cannot be over hauled beyond 4000hrs, than rd 93 even if replaced will cost 5 million(2x2.5) vs 12 million. now this doesnt include maintenance cost

Engines are assets that are agnostic to air frames.

Yes agreed, the most important aspect is life cycle cost but given that life of these assets is spread around decades and requires lot of future updates which changes the platform in its entirety means correct estimation of life cycle cost is almost impossible ...

Is there any information available on Chinese engines in development ? Logically they are more likely to be following Russian methodology of manufacturing but whats the life cycle of indigenous Chinese engines in J10s?

Eventually it will be a chinese engine.

The risk remains even with the RD series. Was theEJ200ever for sale to the PAF?
A

no, they were courting the indians, now have a sale in Turkey. Since it out of germany, export from current government is difficult.

 

[razgriz19]

I would rather go with two RD-93's for each thunder at 5m, instead of one EJ2000 for 12.5m. 0 down time during engine overhaul.

Do you think the aircraft just sit around when the engines are being overhauled?
If you're operating a fleet, you always purchase spare engines, and that's what they use when there is AOG

 

[Thorough Pro]

I know how they operate.

Do you think the aircraft just sit around when the engines are being overhauled?
If you're operating a fleet, you always purchase spare engines, and that's what they use when there is AOG

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I doubt that the difference could be so massive.
The RD33 on Indian MiG29 had 2000Hr life.
The current RD33 Series 3 on the MiG29 "UPG" has a 4000 Hr life.
The GE F404 IN20 on the Tejas has a life of 8000 Hr.
(From memory)
And the most advanced engine from the family which is on the Indian Navy's MiG29K/KuB has a few problems:

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/1000...r-fails-navys-main-fighter-jet-mig-29-1437329



http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...india-mig-29k-aircraft-navy-defects/88510782/

I didnt talk about life after overhaul, i talked about total life. Russian elements total life is very poor.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Do you think the aircraft just sit around when the engines are being overhauled?
If you're operating a fleet, you always purchase spare engines, and that's what they use when there is AOG

AOG is a state when serviceable aircraft has a major failure. You dont do an engine change during "AOG", you change an aggregate. Remember you are not in inspection, check, or maintenance, but AOG means your operational aircraft is down. You fix / replace what you can to get the bird back on flight line.

Engines, and its major sub assemblies, are "rotables" means they are assets that can go from one aircraft to other, depending on its life since overhaul. These assets are individually logged and tracked. Thats all I know about this technical stuff.

 

[messiach]

@razgriz19 @Bilal Khan 777 @Thorough Pro @khanasifm leistritz extrusion tech makes major maintenance easy for Aero turbines. Overhaul depends on its scope first furnished by Siemens 1-preinspection routine 2-alignment check 3-minor disassembly 4-NDT or nondestructive checks 5-Fact finding 6-Reassembly 7-Commissioning. Its a standard check everywhere. No replacement, addition,subtraction. That's all, nothing special or spectacular here from an engineering & maintenance perspective.

 

[BATMAN]

I would rather go with two RD-93's for each thunder at 5m, instead of one EJ2000 for 12.5m. 0 down time during engine overhaul.

Long ago, i remember reading somewhere, RD93 = $2million
Since when prices are revised?

 

[CHACHA"G"]

@ every one
What will be the price of JF-17 block 3 with AESA and all modern western eqm we are planning to have ????? And what is the price of J-10 C with AESA Radar and other modern Eqm .
What will be the difference ? how many millions ? because that is the difference of light and medium.
Thank you all

 

[The Accountant]

@ every one
What will be the price of JF-17 block 3 with AESA and all modern western eqm we are planning to have ????? And what is the price of J-10 C with AESA Radar and other modern Eqm .
What will be the difference ? how many millions ? because that is the difference of light and medium.
Thank you all

I think difference will remain as it is previous comparisons were from j10a which had somilar capabilities as of blk 2 in terms of sub systems ...

 

[CHACHA"G"]

I think difference will remain as it is previous comparisons were from j10a which had somilar capabilities as of blk 2 in terms of sub systems ...

Both are totally different birds , J-10 C have many advantages over JF-17s but that does not mean JF-17 is not good , Its a great Light bird no doubt in that.
But I am asking about price here , what will be the price of JF-17 block 3 with AESA and other modern EQM and J-10 C , so we can compare how cheap or cost effective it is . In the end its a light bird and we are having it because it is very cost effective or cheap.
We are planning to have 200+ JF-17s is it worth it ? I mean replacing old A-5s , F6s even F7s fine , but replacing Mirages with it or only having JF-17s with some old and new F-16s and betting on J-31 or any other 5th Gen is it worth it. Keep in mind even J-31 will take 5 to 7 years before it will come on production line and also how many can we have , Don't tell me people here think 200+ J-31 so they can replace all other birds .
If old MLU F-16 costing us 30+ Million$$$ !! Is it any good to have Light Bird in 40+Million???
We have a single engine light bird , now we need single engine medium bird and J-10 is best candidate for that , This bird can replace our old Mirages. And before we go on expensive 5th Gen we need Double engine Heavy 4.5++ Bird.
For how long we want to use old F-16s and Mirages .

 

[Hassan Guy]

Turkey is developing jet engines with rolls Royce

 

[MastanKhan]

@ every one
What will be the price of JF-17 block 3 with AESA and all modern western eqm we are planning to have ????? And what is the price of J-10 C with AESA Radar and other modern Eqm .
What will be the difference ? how many millions ? because that is the difference of light and medium.
Thank you all

Hi,

On the low side---it would be 12 mil---on the high side it would be 20 mil difference.

I didnt talk about life after overhaul, i talked about total life. Russian elements total life is very poor.

Hi,

So---what are your personal / professional considerations / opinions in the JF17 scenario where the life of the european engine maybe longer that that of the structural life of the aircraft in question?

 

[MastanKhan]

I would rather go with two RD-93's for each thunder at 5m, instead of one EJ2000 for 12.5m. 0 down time during engine overhaul.

Hi,

This scenario of the EJ200 to the RD93 does not make sense---. The european engine has a much longer life than the aircraft in question---. The aircraft may eventually disintegrate before the EJ200's life comes to an end---. So---what would be the use of such a power plant??

Thank you for answer sir , so if we spend 20 million more we can have a dam medium bird , and sir what will be the price of airframe like Gripen NG ? What is we upgrade airframe in block 4 ? will that work ? we already going to have all new eqm in Block 3 . I am sure it will be less then 10 million

Hi,

Gripen NG would be around 75-80 mil a pop or maybe more---. The BLK3 JF17 should be to the Girpen NG as the M2K was to the F16---so very close---.

The BLK 3 with all its gadets would be under 40 mil a piece---.