JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[MIRauf]

I think they were full stop missing the radar entirely. In terms of ECM as far as i know, the Block 10/15 relied on a podded ECM- i could be wrong on this, but flicking through the USAF's manual, the only references i see to ECM are referring to pods, i am unsure whether the PAF had acquired any form of ECM pod at the time, especially since it was a really rushed purchase/induction.

Odd, I know that I will date myself, however, most of my research ( based on Jane's Defense Journal, 1983-84 ) if I recall correctly stated that PAF stuck to it's desire for the Radar ( APG-64/66 ? do not remeber the exact model ) and that APG Radar (Black and White) was on board the delivered products. Even though IDF and USAF itself was strongly opposed for the Radar inclusion for the PAF.

PS: Where is Zervan ? he should be ecstatic over the J-10 News.

 

[Akh1112]

Odd, I know that I will date myself, however, most of my research ( based on Jane's Defense Journal, 1983-84 ) if I recall correctly stated that PAF stuck to it's desire for the Radar ( APG-64/66 ? do not remeber the exact model ) and that APG Radar (Black and White) was on board the delivered products. Even though IDF and USAF itself was strongly opposed for the Radar inclusion for the PAF.

PS: Where is Zervan ? he should be ecstatic over the J-10 News.

I may be wrong, im going to go dig around for exact details, thanks. Since i think there was an APG-66 for F-16s (it was the F-20s radar btw) but some sites list it as part of the MLU program which is odd. Hmm it does seem like the PAF's F-16s did carry the APG-66, but then, why did they not buy sparrows and why did we get bvr capabilities so late

 

[kursed]

I may be wrong, im going to go dig around for exact details, thanks. Since i think there was an APG-66 for F-16s (it was the F-20s radar btw) but some sites list it as part of the MLU program which is odd. Hmm it does seem like the PAF's F-16s did carry the APG-66, but then, why did they not buy sparrows and why did we get bvr capabilities so late

Can confirm the bit on APG-66. BVR was denied to us. The US has a policy of not introducing a new weapons capability via Pakistan in this region.

 

[Akh1112]

Can confirm the bit on APG-66. BVR was denied to us. The US has a policy of not introducing a new weapons capability via Pakistan in this region.

makes alot of sense. thanks

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

Name one---and please also give explanation as well.

J-10? maybe? since it out performs in speed , range ceiling and is only beaten in terms of payload to JH . but if specially adapted for that strike role which JH 7s are meant to provide then there is a likelihood as its still a 4.5 generation plane still in production and being upgraded.
. also being a single engine it wont break PAF self imposed no two engines restriction.

I wanted to suggest a twin engine "Japanized" version of JF 17 (like they do to their Mitsubishi F-2) with a slightly bigger airfrace/ fuselage but I am not aware if PAF will take that route or would rather procure another jet.

 

[LKJ86]

I wanted to suggest a twin engine "Japanized" version of JF 17 (like they do to their Mitsubishi F-2) with a slightly bigger airfrace/ fuselage but I am not aware if PAF will take that route or would rather procure another jet.

Do you mean someting like India's LCA MK2?

 

[Gripen9]

If I could find the Dawn paper from time long past then I would but alas I don't have it, here the great 'Nur Khan, RIP' wrote an article that PAF made a blunder by buying F-16s. He was of the opinion that if PAF hadn't bought F-16 then IAF wouldn't have gone on and purchased M2K and Mig-29 Combo. Now fast forward a decade and PAF without F-16 and IAF decides to go for SU-30s, what position do you think PAF would have been at that point ? At best, PAF may have gone for M2K, would the M2K had played as good of role as the Super Duper F-16s did on Feb 27th ?

Now, he had retired but if there are officers of that mind set serving and making those type of decision then you can decide for yourself as to what you may think of them.

People may say what they want about ACM Shamim, but Kudos to him and his staff for sticking to their guns and getting the F-16s with the right gadgets, which in turn became the catalyst for further F-16s and upgrade of its capabilities.

PS: I write this as just an opinion and I mean no disrespect to Nur Khan and any other PAF ACMs past or present.

I would love to check that op-ed by ACM Nur Khan. Does not sound like the Nur Khan that I remember (as being told by my father). That Nur Khan was very aggressive. He had actually drafted plans of pre-emptive strikes on IAF airfields in even of any hostilities. Same plans were executed albeit poorly in 65 a month after he had left the PAF.

F-16s induction at that time was not India centric, rather we needed a modern fighter to intercept Soviet/Afghan intrusions on our Western borders. At the time F-6 and Mirage IIIs flying CAPs were not able to intercept Soviet/Afghan Mig23/Su22 heck even SU25s that would scoot in and bomb refugee camps around Parachinar and egress before short legged F-6s or Mirages could respond. That all changed after F-16s were introduced. I wished we had asked for F-15s at that time.

Odd, I know that I will date myself, however, most of my research ( based on Jane's Defense Journal, 1983-84 ) if I recall correctly stated that PAF stuck to it's desire for the Radar ( APG-64/66 ? do not remeber the exact model ) and that APG Radar (Black and White) was on board the delivered products. Even though IDF and USAF itself was strongly opposed for the Radar inclusion for the PAF.

PS: Where is Zervan ? he should be ecstatic over the J-10 News.

US wanted to Sell PAF the underpowered Falcon79 which had J-79 turbojet engine (similar to one in F-4/F-104) instead of the F100 turbofan. PAF categorically rejected them outright. PAF was then offered the same BLK15 (which were the current version) as flown by USAF in 1981. They were equipped with APG-66 v(2). That is not a BVR capable radar. Starting from BLK20 is when you got APG-66v(3) that was BVR capable and able to fire sparrows. Interestingly PAF's follow up order of 77 F-16s in 1988 (embargoed) were also for F-16 A/B blk15 (per F-16.net). By 1988 you actually had better equipped blk30/32 C/D models with APG-68 radar so makes you wonder why we ordered older versions?

 

[Akh1112]

I would love to check that op-ed by ACM Nur Khan. Does not sound like the Nur Khan that I remember (as being told by my father). That Nur Khan was very aggressive. He had actually drafted plans of pre-emptive strikes on IAF airfields in even of any hostilities. Same plans were executed albeit poorly in 65 a month after he had left the PAF.

F-16s induction at that time was not India centric, rather we needed a modern fighter to intercept Soviet/Afghan intrusions on our Western borders. At the time F-6 and Mirage IIIs flying CAPs were not able to intercept Soviet/Afghan Mig23/Su22 heck even SU25s that would scoot in and bomb refugee camps around Parachinar and egress before short legged F-6s or Mirages could respond. That all changed after F-16s were introduced. I wished we had asked for F-15s at that time.

US wanted to Sell PAF Falcon79 that which had J-79 turbojet engine (similar to one in F-4/F-104) instead of the F100 turbofan. PAF categorically rejected them, PAF was then offered the same BLK15 (which were the current version in 1981. They were equipped with APG-66 v(2). That is not a BVR capable radar. Starting from BLK20 is when you got APG-66v(3) that was BVR capable and able to fire sparrows. Interestingly PAF's follow up order of 77 F-16s in 1988 (embargoed) were also for F-16 A/B blk15 (per F-16.net) by 1988 you actually had better equipped blk30/32 C/D models with APG-68 radar so makes you wonder why we ordered older versions?

Thank you, clears it up alot.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Do you mean someting like India's LCA MK2?

I dont know what I meant more than what I have already written in the post you quoted.
my knowledge of aviation technology is non existent.

 

[MIRauf]

I would love to check that op-ed by ACM Nur Khan. Does not sound like the Nur Khan that I remember (as being told by my father). That Nur Khan was very aggressive. He had actually drafted plans of pre-emptive strikes on IAF airfields in even of any hostilities. Same plans were executed albeit poorly in 65 a month after he had left the PAF.

F-16s induction at that time was not India centric, rather we needed a modern fighter to intercept Soviet/Afghan intrusions on our Western borders. At the time F-6 and Mirage IIIs flying CAPs were not able to intercept Soviet/Afghan Mig23/Su22 heck even SU25s that would scoot in and bomb refugee camps around Parachinar and egress before short legged F-6s or Mirages could respond. That all changed after F-16s were introduced. I wished we had asked for F-15s at that time.


US wanted to Sell PAF the underpowered Falcon79 which had J-79 turbojet engine (similar to one in F-4/F-104) instead of the F100 turbofan. PAF categorically rejected them outright. PAF was then offered the same BLK15 (which were the current version) as flown by USAF in 1981. They were equipped with APG-66 v(2). That is not a BVR capable radar. Starting from BLK20 is when you got APG-66v(3) that was BVR capable and able to fire sparrows. Interestingly PAF's follow up order of 77 F-16s in 1988 (embargoed) were also for F-16 A/B blk15 (per F-16.net). By 1988 you actually had better equipped blk30/32 C/D models with APG-68 radar so makes you wonder why we ordered older versions?

Thank you for the info. As for further order, perhaps this info of f16.net

"In November 1981, the Block 15 introduced MSIP Stage I changes to the F-16A/B starting with subblock 15Y and continuing through subblock 15AZ. More than a year earlier, in February 1980, these modifications were already effective on the F-16C/D production. The changes expanded the F-16s growth potential by allowing improved capabilities in the air-to-ground and BVR missions. "

Interesting bit about BVR, please note that this is not to dispute what you wrote, but to further expand my on knowledge of F-16 in PAF.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

What other options ? I do not know, Chinese only had F-6s, UK Tornado and France M-III/V or M2K. I was rehashing ( Cliff Notes, para-phrasing, summarizing ) what ACM (Ret) Nur Khan Wrote in an article. He was of the opinion as to not add any newer platform and just stick with what PAF had or add to the current at that time ( M-III / V. ) In subsequent paragraph, I applauded ACM (Ret) Shamim's insistence on F-16 as the right Choice then and even today.

You are correct, Mig-29 of late 70s / 80s was not at par with the F-16 A/B, thus IAF opted for two platforms to deal with it (enter M2K.)

International Arms Deals are shrouded with Kick Backs, behind the back deals, Call Girls, late night drinking and Parting, all the fun stuff. In other words normal Big Corporation culture, show the client good time and better offer then the rivals to clinch the deal. If PAF thought in the 90s that M2K or variant of it was the right choice then the %10 for Mr. 10% was such a bad thing that when it comes to Defense of the Nation that you ( PAF ) walks away from the deal ? It wouldn't had been the case that BB would have said no, she would have worked through deal / financing to keep %10 extra happy.

are you talking about early 80 when we get our first F-16, what we option other than F-16 , F-15 no/ F-14 no/ tornado less compare to F16 and Tornado ADV version is basically only interceptor F-16 was a true multirole fighter from beginning, Mirage-3/5 has a turbojet which is fuel thrusty as compare to turbofan as a result it has much range and payload than F-16, Mirage 2000 is on the par of F-16 but early M2k not comparable to early F-16
Khan and Shamim argument about F-16 might be their personal opinions

 

[MastanKhan]

J-10? maybe? since it out performs in speed , range ceiling and is only beaten in terms of payload to JH . but if specially adapted for that strike role which JH 7s are meant to provide then there is a likelihood as its still a 4.5 generation plane still in production and being upgraded.
. also being a single engine it wont break PAF self imposed no two engines restriction.

I wanted to suggest a twin engine "Japanized" version of JF 17 (like they do to their Mitsubishi F-2) with a slightly bigger airfrace/ fuselage but I am not aware if PAF will take that route or would rather procure another jet.

Hi,

The primary important factor of the JH7A is its LOW ALTITUDE FLIGHT capability---.

Which means that flying barely over the waves it is next to impossible to detect this incoming aircraft.

See---aircraft have flight capabilities at either high altitude---like the F86 Sabre or the low altitude capabilities like the Gnat---. Same with the F16 and the M2K---.

So in the flight category box the low flight capability pf an aircraft is a massive assets---.

Now the posters mentiond Iraq war---where low flyers got shot down---.

Well---I never mentioned the JH7A's for strikes over land---I always proposed strike from over water---.

In that regard---the Paf has always been shortsighted---. It always has shown preference of combat over land---.

What is your take on the Rumor of inducting Chinese J-10 now in small numbers 36? will it bring any Power punch to PAF and its possible effect on the JF-17 program in the long run?

Hi,

Yes absolutely.

Just imagine that you have 36 AK47---now add another 36 AR15's to that---. Many a complicated problems have simple solutions.

Never let the military men decide. PAF is a SUICIDAL organization in MINDSET & OPERATION---. It does everything late---behind the time and creates every hurdle possible in its way as it can.
So---yes the J10 would be a massive force multiplier but it does not get them any jobs in the western countries---.

What other options ? I do not know, Chinese only had F-6s, UK Tornado and France M-III/V or M2K. I was rehashing ( Cliff Notes, para-phrasing, summarizing ) what ACM (Ret) Nur Khan Wrote in an article. He was of the opinion as to not add any newer platform and just stick with what PAF had or add to the current at that time ( M-III / V. ) In subsequent paragraph, I applauded ACM (Ret) Shamim's insistence on F-16 as the right Choice then and even today.

You are correct, Mig-29 of late 70s / 80s was not at par with the F-16 A/B, thus IAF opted for two platforms to deal with it (enter M2K.)

International Arms Deals are shrouded with Kick Backs, behind the back deals, Call Girls, late night drinking and Parting, all the fun stuff. In other words normal Big Corporation culture, show the client good time and better offer then the rivals to clinch the deal. If PAF thought in the 90s that M2K or variant of it was the right choice then the %10 for Mr. 10% was such a bad thing that when it comes to Defense of the Nation that you ( PAF ) walks away from the deal ? It wouldn't had been the case that BB would have said no, she would have worked through deal / financing to keep %10 extra happy.

Hi,

Mirage F1 was available.

 

[ziaulislam]

J-10? maybe? since it out performs in speed , range ceiling and is only beaten in terms of payload to JH . but if specially adapted for that strike role which JH 7s are meant to provide then there is a likelihood as its still a 4.5 generation plane still in production and being upgraded.
. also being a single engine it wont break PAF self imposed no two engines restriction.

I wanted to suggest a twin engine "Japanized" version of JF 17 (like they do to their Mitsubishi F-2) with a slightly bigger airfrace/ fuselage but I am not aware if PAF will take that route or would rather procure another jet.

Better just buy off thr shelf j10 benefiting from large chinese production scale..leveraging that buy with some offsets in azm project

Offset could be help in designing and some subsystem buy off
With respect to jf17.. What can do is get the rd93ma and improves aerodynamics by weight reduction and may be explore CFTs..
If CFTs are feasible that will be a huge plus

 

[MastanKhan]

J-10? maybe? since it out performs in speed , range ceiling and is only beaten in terms of payload to JH . but if specially adapted for that strike role which JH 7s are meant to provide then there is a likelihood as its still a 4.5 generation plane still in production and being upgraded.
. also being a single engine it wont break PAF self imposed no two engines restriction.

I wanted to suggest a twin engine "Japanized" version of JF 17 (like they do to their Mitsubishi F-2) with a slightly bigger airfrace/ fuselage but I am not aware if PAF will take that route or would rather procure another jet.

Hi,

The J10 cannot carry two 1000 Kg each anti ship missiles---. It basically is not designed for that role at all.

The J10 is your fighter interceptor aircraft. Your naval weapons carrier airship going on anti ship strike missions must and must carry two heavy antiship missiles.

Two missiles are better than one---. One opportunity shows up---your one anti ship missiles fizzles out---fails to launch---after the launch goes haywire---enemy shoots it down---it is all about the percentages---about when you get the opportunity---you launch the first and then the second one for surety---.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Now shoo for your pathetic false ego mindset, now go to your pathetic work (car selling?

Were you never taught courtesy?