JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Deino]

Hi,

Whe you utter the words---" it is out of production "---it tells me that you are clueless about about WEAPONS world.

Do you know how long ago the Mirage 3 / 5 production stopped. But has that stopped Paf for buying more of them.

Paf is desperately seeking egyptian mirages right now---.

Do you know how long ago the F14 stopped its production a but the iranians are flying them.

If the US had not intentionally destroyed all the F14 aircrafts and their parts a decade ago and allowed iran to procure them---there would not be too many fighter aircraft competing with that machine as of now---. Even in that state of lack of parts---some that are flyable are stll the most deadly aircraft in the arena---.

Son---every weapons system has a form and function---. For some the utility lasts a few years---the others endure decades of service---.

Thanks for at least the reply but you once again ignored all arguments.

I must admit that indeed is possible, but the comparisons with Iran's F-14s and PAF's Mirages are off:

1. Iran simply has no other option and already uses them, also they were not bought as second hand but fresh from the factory.

2. the same is for Pakistan's Mirages: They are already in service, there is a logistic infrastructure established and as such it makes sense to get hands on more of this reliable albeit dated types.

For the JH-7 nothing of these arguments is valid: It is dated but not in PAF service. As such a new logistic infrastructure must be established for an old type newly introduced from an Air Force that soon will retire them.

I don't think that Pakistan would do this especially when more modern and capable systems are available.

 

[Shabi1]

Hi,

Whe you utter the words---" it is out of production "---it tells me that you are clueless about about WEAPONS world.

Do you know how long ago the Mirage 3 / 5 production stopped. But has that stopped Paf for buying more of them.

Paf is desperately seeking egyptian mirages right now---.

Do you know how long ago the F14 stopped its production a but the iranians are flying them.

If the US had not intentionally destroyed all the F14 aircrafts and their parts a decade ago and allowed iran to procure them---there would not be too many fighter aircraft competing with that machine as of now---. Even in that state of lack of parts---some that are flyable are stll the most deadly aircraft in the arena---.

Son---every weapons system has a form and function---. For some the utility lasts a few years---the others endure decades of service---.


Hi,

You are again in error---. When you buy a weapon---you buy it for the sake what it is going to do for you tomorrow and not after 30 years---.

Youngman---does no one teaches about wars and being prepared for wars---. You train and prepare a soldier and his machine to fight a war tomorrow not for a war after 30 years---.

In theory yes you have a point but same argument can be made for Tornados, Mirage F-1 or any other XYZ legacy aircraft with greater payload than JF-17 or Mirage, again its not a practical argument for just this platform.

Whenever any system is bought even in civilian use there is a system life calculation made at the evaluation stage. When making a investment in hundreds of $m the decision makers will not want to spend again after a short span to replace it and they would want something that can address multiple issues and not just one role.

Mirage is a different story its been in our inventory for 50+yrs so we have a huge support infrastructure in place for it, its logical we keep it as long as possible, perhaps even using them as decoy drones in the end even. F-16s will likely follow the same Mirage legacy. For Iranian F-14s similar story and desperation as well because they can't procure replacements and they have considerable investment in reverse engineering components.

Improving over what the current platforms can carry. Keep in mind with stand off missiles ranging ~250-300+km or 600km Raad2 you need good detection capability since over the horizon handicap will be in play for sensors, this is why ships generally arnt armed with 500-1000km range anti ship missiles, its not practical. Sea targets aren't stationary, they are dynamic. For JH-7 even if bought from PLAN/PLAAF inventory for immediate delivery they will have to be customized for integration with PN/PAF network then there is investment in infrastructure, new hangers, training and support stations. Its not just go to a dealer and buy a new car or truck.

PN LRMP program might be subsonic but they certainly will have a significantly longer loiter time, detection capability and range, these factors are more important when out at sea. Speed won't make a difference if you can't detect the target. The US relies on P-3/P-8s as primary antiship platform for a reason.

Please leave JH-7 out, there have been pointless threads on it. There is no case for it.

Finance is not an issue as we are spending $bns on Navy modernization, we can get flexible payment terms if we want a new platform for PAF but there seems to be no urgency felt for it yet and long term plans are in play.

 

[CodeforFood]

Hi,

Whe you utter the words---" it is out of production "---it tells me that you are clueless about about WEAPONS world.

Do you know how long ago the Mirage 3 / 5 production stopped. But has that stopped Paf for buying more of them.

Paf is desperately seeking egyptian mirages right now---.

Do you know how long ago the F14 stopped its production a but the iranians are flying them.

If the US had not intentionally destroyed all the F14 aircrafts and their parts a decade ago and allowed iran to procure them---there would not be too many fighter aircraft competing with that machine as of now---. Even in that state of lack of parts---some that are flyable are stll the most deadly aircraft in the arena---.

Son---every weapons system has a form and function---. For some the utility lasts a few years---the others endure decades of service---.


Hi,

You are again in error---. When you buy a weapon---you buy it for the sake what it is going to do for you tomorrow and not after 30 years---.

Youngman---does no one teaches about wars and being prepared for wars---. You train and prepare a soldier and his machine to fight a war tomorrow not for a war after 30 years---.

For Once I agree with Mr Khan. We need to capable platform for our immediate needs with reasonable reach to project power if there is a need for deep strike.

 

[Deino]

For Once I agree with Mr Khan. We need to capable platform for our immediate needs with reasonable reach to project power if there is a need for deep strike.

That's something we can all agree, but his proposals - even if they might make sense - are IMO unlikely or even impossible. There are other options and I think as noted in the other thread(s) we will be aware someday,

 

[SQ8]

Come on ... you know exactly all reasons, why such an option for the PAF is unlikely and to tell it mildly nothing but a wet-dream, You only - as expected - still don't want to listen nor even argue, but in case you forgot these explanations and reasons, here again:

1. The JH-7A is out of production for long, it is a dated system and all these JH-7E proposals are airshow proposals, nothing more.

2. IMO it is unlikely that the PLAAF would transfer its own JH-7As to the PAF and even more - since it is in fact already dated - that Pakistan would accept it due to two additional reasons:

3. IF - and IMO this IF is a huge one - the PAF would decide on them, they would need a comprehensive MLU-program, maybe to JH-7B standard, which itself was also abandoned and ..

4. such a huge striker, regardless how useful it indeed might be - would require a a completely new strain of maintenance adding yet another money that could be spend much better for a new multirole type.


... but please not again with the same lame old them" You are not allowed to post such stuff since you are not from the military, not from Pakistan and by the way, Pakistan can get whatever it wants for free from China"! This is a theme no-one but you believes.

You know you’re only getting hollow loghorrea in response - plenty of Pakistani members with this attitude here:

 

[Deino]

You know you’re only getting hollow loghorrea in response - plenty of Pakistani members with this attitude here:

I'm a teacher and I rarely give up at least to try to explain.

 

[SQ8]

That's something we can all agree, but his proposals - even if they might make sense - are IMO unlikely or even impossible. There are other options and I think as noted in the other thread(s) we will be aware someday,

Any proposals need to focus less on self aggrandizement and more on technical merit, unfortunately since the audience itself is unable to differentiate more often than not they do fall for it.

Does PAF need a deep strike fighter?
Yes, they’ve been trying to get one for 30 years now starting with the M2k to J-10B to now the J-10C. All other options either aren’t realistic such as the Typhoon or Flanker series(both Russian & Chinese variety), or came with a lot of strings attached. Lastly, the budget factor has to come into play as well.

But we’ve already heard the options and rumor mills a hundred times with the associated “disappointments” by folks here.
Without realizing that procurement deals have similarity to other business deals that they too are affected by changing priorities and scenarios brought on gradually or suddenly.

A simple example is the recent Nikola fiasco - something that was announced with much fanfare and talk had to be shoved under the carpet after the critical report.

 

[MastanKhan]

I

its dated today's standards Mirage-3/5 is also dated PAF buying because we have lack of options and $$$, Same goes to Iran, you not a god or something that you're always pretend and rest of the PDF are stupid and illiterate, as you often insulting every members here

Hi,

You do not have to a God to know it---. It is all about learning and education---and most of all remembering what you read, saw---learnt .

Read books youngman---read books---. There is so much information and knowledge out there in the open forum---but you have to know the difference between truth and fantasy.

And we did not have a LACK OF OPTIONS---. They were offered to us on a platter---it is the Paf that screwed up every time.

 

[kursed]

Pakistan will not buy a JH-7, period. This discussion is futile.

 

[MastanKhan]

In theory yes you have a point but same argument can be made for Tornados, Mirage F-1 or any other XYZ legacy aircraft with greater payload than JF-17 or Mirage, again its not a practical argument for just this platform.

Whenever any system is bought even in civilian use there is a system life calculation made at the evaluation stage. When making a investment in hundreds of $m the decision makers will not want to spend again after a short span to replace it and they would want something that can address multiple issues and not just one role.

Mirage is a different story its been in our inventory for 50+yrs so we have a huge support infrastructure in place for it, its logical we keep it as long as possible, perhaps even using them as decoy drones in the end even. F-16s will likely follow the same Mirage legacy. For Iranian F-14s similar story and desperation as well because they can't procure replacements and they have considerable investment in reverse engineering components.

Improving over what the current platforms can carry. Keep in mind with stand off missiles ranging ~250-300+km or 600km Raad2 you need good detection capability since over the horizon handicap will be in play for sensors, this is why ships generally arnt armed with 500-1000km range anti ship missiles, its not practical. Sea targets aren't stationary, they are dynamic. For JH-7 even if bought from PLAN/PLAAF inventory for immediate delivery they will have to be customized for integration with PN/PAF network then there is investment in infrastructure, new hangers, training and support stations. Its not just go to a dealer and buy a new car or truck.

PN LRMP program might be subsonic but they certainly will have a significantly longer loiter time, detection capability and range, these factors are more important when out at sea. Speed won't make a difference if you can't detect the target. The US relies on P-3/P-8s as primary antiship platform for a reason.

Please leave JH-7 out, there have been pointless threads on it. There is no case for it.

Finance is not an issue as we are spending $bns on Navy modernization, we can get flexible payment terms if we want a new platform for PAF but there seems to be no urgency felt for it yet and long term plans are in play.

Hi,

In a manner you are correct---. But none of them come with what the JH7A offers---no restrictions---state of the art EW package and weapons that the chinese make with out any restriction..

Ability to carry TWO heavy anti ship missiles is something none other can offer---.

And how important is that ability for a strike aircraft---the japanese rejected the F16's size---and built their own copy The F2---whose minimum requirement was to carry two antiship missiles of the category of 800 KG each.

What was so important about one strike aircraft carrying two heavy antiship missiles---so important that the japanese spent billions into this venture---.

You missed the point about Iranian F14's---it was emphasized to show that even with all restrictions and destruction of used parts by the american---this old machine is still operational.

Pakistan will not buy a JH-7, period. This discussion is futile.

Hi,

never say never.

 

[kursed]

Hi,

never say never.

This will not happen, Sir.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Hi,

You do not have to a God to know it---. It is all about learning and education---and most of all remembering what you read, saw---learnt .

Read books youngman---read books---. There is so much information and knowledge out there in the open forum---but you have to know the difference between truth and fantasy.

And we did not have a LACK OF OPTIONS---. They were offered to us on a platter---it is the Paf that screwed up every time.

And i read lots of books, why you think PAF is stupid or something to not accept those offer to PAF these were delicate and complex defense as well as political games, are you better than PAF professionals sitting in air HQ??? and PDF has some member who are professionals they know better than you and us why they not purchase those jets which were offer to PAF

 

[MastanKhan]

And i read lots of books, why you think PAF is stupid or something to not accept those offer to PAF these were delicate and complex defense as well as political games, are you better than PAF professionals sitting in air HQ??? and PDF has some member who are professionals they know better than you and us why they not purchase those jets which were offer to PAF

Hi,

Paf has proven itself to be 'stupid' so many times that you can now say the Paf and it would be assumed that one means stupid.

The Pakistani professionals from the Paf don't know diddley---.

What would these professionals sitting in HQ know more---nothing---nada---zilch. Now if you are comparing them to yourself abilities and intellect---then you are a better judge of yourself---but please don't count me in----.

Come on ... you know exactly all reasons, why such an option for the PAF is unlikely and to tell it mildly nothing but a wet-dream, You only - as expected - still don't want to listen nor even argue, but in case you forgot these explanations and reasons, here again:

1. The JH-7A is out of production for long, it is a dated system and all these JH-7E proposals are airshow proposals, nothing more.

2. IMO it is unlikely that the PLAAF would transfer its own JH-7As to the PAF and even more - since it is in fact already dated - that Pakistan would accept it due to two additional reasons:

3. IF - and IMO this IF is a huge one - the PAF would decide on them, they would need a comprehensive MLU-program, maybe to JH-7B standard, which itself was also abandoned and ..

4. such a huge striker, regardless how useful it indeed might be - would require a a completely new strain of maintenance adding yet another money that could be spend much better for a new multirole type.


... but please not again with the same lame old them" You are not allowed to post such stuff since you are not from the military, not from Pakistan and by the way, Pakistan can get whatever it wants for free from China"! This is a theme no-one but you believes.

Hi,

We have a HUGE ENEMY and the only vulnerable part of that enemy is strikes from over water---.

Find a way to strike mumbai---and you decimate the enemy's wealth center---.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Hi,

Paf has proven itself to be 'stupid' so many times that you can now say the Paf and it would be assumed that one means stupid.

The Pakistani professionals from the Paf don't know diddley---.

What would these professionals sitting in HQ know more---nothing---nada---zilch. Now if you are comparing them to yourself abilities and intellect---then you are a better judge of yourself---but please don't count me in----.

So you're saying you're better than those professional which are sitting in air HQ than you're more stupid than those professionals, you have false ego that you know everything about defense and military, and can't be wrong

 

[MIRauf]

If I could find the Dawn paper from time long past then I would but alas I don't have it, here the great 'Nur Khan, RIP' wrote an article that PAF made a blunder by buying F-16s. He was of the opinion that if PAF hadn't bought F-16 then IAF wouldn't have gone on and purchased M2K and Mig-29 Combo. Now fast forward a decade and PAF without F-16 and IAF decides to go for SU-30s, what position do you think PAF would have been at that point ? At best, PAF may have gone for M2K, would the M2K had played as good of role as the Super Duper F-16s did on Feb 27th ?

Now, he had retired but if there are officers of that mind set serving and making those type of decision then you can decide for yourself as to what you may think of them.

People may say what they want about ACM Shamim, but Kudos to him and his staff for sticking to their guns and getting the F-16s with the right gadgets, which in turn became the catalyst for further F-16s and upgrade of its capabilities.

PS: I write this as just an opinion and I mean no disrespect to Nur Khan and any other PAF ACMs past or present.