JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[White and Green with M/S]

If I could find the Dawn paper from time long past then I would but alas I don't have it, here the great 'Nur Khan, RIP' wrote an article that PAF made a blunder by buying F-16s. He was of the opinion that if PAF hadn't bought F-16 then IAF wouldn't have gone on and purchased M2K and Mig-29 Combo. Now fast forward a decade and PAF without F-16 and IAF decides to go for SU-30s, what position do you think PAF would have been at that point ? At best, PAF may have gone for M2K, would the M2K had played as good of role as the Super Duper F-16s did on Feb 27th ?

Now, he had retired but if there are officers of that mind set serving and making those type of decision then you can decide for yourself as to what you may think of them.

People may say what they want about ACM Shamim, but Kudos to him and his staff for sticking to their guns and getting the F-16s with the right gadgets, which in turn became the catalyst for further F-16s and upgrade of its capabilities.

PS: I write this as just an opinion and I mean no disrespect to Nur Khan and any other PAF ACMs past or present.

I don't thinks so Mig-29 that capable of early F-16, Russians/Soviets always behind the avionics/radars/ system integration/sensor fusion as well as in range/combat radius etc etc that's it was not Chosen, M2K was the closest rival of F-16 and we had a good relation with France but pure delta has own limitations its good on instantaneous turn rates but poor in sustain turn rates, and its avionics/radars was quite primitives as compare to early F-16 ( I am talking about early version of Mirage-2000 not Mirage-2000/5) and we all know what happened into mid 90s when PAF want to buy M2K from France, PPP govt and especially Mr-10% want a kickbacks on that deal

And please do tell me what other option we had have other than F-16 in late 70s early 80s, early Mirage-2000, which is not quite comparable to early F-16

PS: Russians/Soviets Had a difficulty to develop modern radars/Avionics For early Mig-29, very early MIG-29 used a slightly modified version of Radars/Avionics from MIG-23, when utilized SU-27 BARS radar technologies into Mig-29 than Mig-29 radars/avionics problems had been solved

 

[MastanKhan]

If I could find the Dawn paper from time long past then I would but alas I don't have it, here the great 'Nur Khan, RIP' wrote an article that PAF made a blunder by buying F-16s. He was of the opinion that if PAF hadn't bought F-16 then IAF wouldn't have gone on and purchased M2K and Mig-29 Combo. Now fast forward a decade and PAF without F-16 and IAF decides to go for SU-30s, what position do you think PAF would have been at that point ? At best, PAF may have gone for M2K, would the M2K had played as good of role as the Super Duper F-16s did on Feb 27th ?

Now, he had retired but if there are officers of that mind set serving and making those type of decision then you can decide for yourself as to what you may think of them.

People may say what they want about ACM Shamim, but Kudos to him and his staff for sticking to their guns and getting the F-16s with the right gadgets, which in turn became the catalyst for further F-16s and upgrade of its capabilities.

PS: I write this as just an opinion and I mean no disrespect to Nur Khan and any other PAF ACMs past or present.

Hi,

And I have been saying that if Paf had by-passed the F16 and gone for the M2K---indian air force had nowhere to run---.

There was no way that the US would have sold india the F16 at that time and Paf would have been the superior air force in the arena---.

But then the Paf had to diversify in a timely manner---as every knowledgeable person except for the Paf generals knew that Pakistan would get sanctioned---.

The Paf generals kept lying to themselves to the country and to the pakistani public about the sanctions.

Theese generals poured money into the F16 purchase even after the sanctions strarted and kept on paying and made fool of the pakistanis by making them hate the americans for no reason---.

 

[Ghessan]

If I could find the Dawn paper from time long past then I would but alas I don't have it, here the great 'Nur Khan, RIP' wrote an article that PAF made a blunder by buying F-16s. He was of the opinion that if PAF hadn't bought F-16 then IAF wouldn't have gone on and purchased M2K and Mig-29 Combo. Now fast forward a decade and PAF without F-16 and IAF decides to go for SU-30s, what position do you think PAF would have been at that point ? At best, PAF may have gone for M2K, would the M2K had played as good of role as the Super Duper F-16s did on Feb 27th ?

Now, he had retired but if there are officers of that mind set serving and making those type of decision then you can decide for yourself as to what you may think of them.

People may say what they want about ACM Shamim, but Kudos to him and his staff for sticking to their guns and getting the F-16s with the right gadgets, which in turn became the catalyst for further F-16s and upgrade of its capabilities.

PS: I write this as just an opinion and I mean no disrespect to Nur Khan and any other PAF ACMs past or present.

this vision and the eye great Nur Khan had which many lacks here and do not understand and keep arguing with their wisdom.

 

[Xone]

The Paf generals kept lying to themselves to the country and to the pakistani public about the sanctions.

What is your take on the Rumor of inducting Chinese J-10 now in small numbers 36? will it bring any Power punch to PAF and its possible effect on the JF-17 program in the long run?

 

[MIRauf]

I don't thinks so Mig-29 that capable of early F-16, Russians/Soviets always behind the avionics/radars/ system integration/sensor fusion as well as in range/combat radius etc etc that's it was not Chosen, M2K was the closest rival of F-16 and we had a good relation with France but pure delta has own limitations its good on instantaneous turn rates but poor in sustain turn rates, and its avionics/radars was quite primitives as compare to early F-16 ( I am talking about early version of Mirage-2000 not Mirage-2000/5) and we all know what happened into mid 90s when PAF want to buy M2K from France, PPP govt and especially Mr-10% want a kickbacks on that deal

And please do tell me what other option we had have other than F-16 in late 70s early 80s, early Mirage-2000, which is not quite comparable to early F-16

PS: Russians/Soviets Had a difficulty to develop modern radars/Avionics For early Mig-29, very early MIG-29 used a slightly modified version of Radars/Avionics from MIG-23, when utilized SU-27 BARS radar technologies into Mig-29 than Mig-29 radars/avionics problems had been solved

What other options ? I do not know, Chinese only had F-6s, UK Tornado and France M-III/V or M2K. I was rehashing ( Cliff Notes, para-phrasing, summarizing ) what ACM (Ret) Nur Khan Wrote in an article. He was of the opinion as to not add any newer platform and just stick with what PAF had or add to the current at that time ( M-III / V. ) In subsequent paragraph, I applauded ACM (Ret) Shamim's insistence on F-16 as the right Choice then and even today.

You are correct, Mig-29 of late 70s / 80s was not at par with the F-16 A/B, thus IAF opted for two platforms to deal with it (enter M2K.)

International Arms Deals are shrouded with Kick Backs, behind the back deals, Call Girls, late night drinking and Parting, all the fun stuff. In other words normal Big Corporation culture, show the client good time and better offer then the rivals to clinch the deal. If PAF thought in the 90s that M2K or variant of it was the right choice then the %10 for Mr. 10% was such a bad thing that when it comes to Defense of the Nation that you ( PAF ) walks away from the deal ? It wouldn't had been the case that BB would have said no, she would have worked through deal / financing to keep %10 extra happy.

 

[Akh1112]

What is your take on the Rumor of inducting Chinese J-10 now in small numbers 36? will it bring any Power punch to PAF and its possible effect on the JF-17 program in the long run?

Wont be small numbers. 90-150. If you look at my previous posts, you can see how critical i was of the idea of a J-10 induction, for some reason that has changed, i said it was impossible before

It wont effect the JF-17 prog since they are of two different roles in the PAF fleet structure. Its the easiest way to counter the Rafale induction.

 

[Xone]

It wont effect the JF-17 prog since they are of two different roles in the PAF fleet structure. Its the easiest way to counter the Rafale induction.

We have been waiting with over keen interest about the jf-17 b3. Even after the passage of almost a year, nothing is known about the b3. If PAF goes ahead with the purchase of j 10. what is left for jf 17 b 3. better
induct j 10 in large no. and relieve the nation off from long tedious wait.

 

[Deino]

Wont be small numbers. 90-150. If you look at my previous posts, you can see how critical i was of the idea of a J-10 induction, for some reason that has changed, i said it was impossible before

It wont effect the JF-17 prog since they are of two different roles in the PAF fleet structure. Its the easiest way to counter the Rafale induction.

I hope you are correct with your mind-shift!

 

[Akh1112]

We have been waiting with over keen interest about the jf-17 b3. Even after the passage of almost a year, nothing is known about the b3. If PAF goes ahead with the purchase of j 10. what is left for jf 17 b 3. better
induct j 10 in large no. and relieve the nation off from long tedious wait.

JF-17B3 is going according to the timelines, i have repeated many a time that we will see a flight sometime december or early january. I repeat, the first two aircraft are on the production line.

 

[MIRauf]

Hi,

And I have been saying that if Paf had by-passed the F16 and gone for the M2K---indian air force had nowhere to run---.

There was no way that the US would have sold india the F16 at that time and Paf would have been the superior air force in the arena---.

But then the Paf had to diversify in a timely manner---as every knowledgeable person except for the Paf generals knew that Pakistan would get sanctioned---.

The Paf generals kept lying to themselves to the country and to the pakistani public about the sanctions.

Theese generals poured money into the F16 purchase even after the sanctions strarted and kept on paying and made fool of the pakistanis by making them hate the americans for no reason---.

IMHO, F-16 choice by ACM ( Ret ) Shamim was the right call, I ( call me biased ) don't think that M2K would have fared well against IAF

IAF was offered F-16s back about same time when PAF ordered it's F-16s, however IAF rejected it complaining that US offered them inferior product. Now if PAF had gone for M2K at that time and IAF had opted for F-16 even while complaining that is was inferior to what they wanted ( Not the same birds as IDF F-16s ) then PAF would have been put on back foot. IAF with Inferior F-16s + Mig-29 vs PAF M2K, not a scenario I would like to think about regardless of what one may think of IAF training / doctrine.

I still stand by my statement that ACM (Ret) A Shamim made the right call, people may call it Green Card deal, kids to US schools etc etc, but still none the less great deal for PAF. Then again, it's just my opinion. Peace Gate ### was deal done during BB's first tenure ?

 

[Akh1112]

IMHO, F-16 choice by ACM ( Ret ) Shamim was the right call, I ( call me biased ) don't think that M2K would have fared well against IAF

IAF was offered F-16s back about same time when PAF ordered it's F-16s, however IAF rejected it complaining that US offered them inferior product. Now if PAF had gone for M2K at that time and IAF had opted for F-16 even while complaining that is was inferior to what they wanted ( Not the same birds as IDF F-16s ) then PAF would have been put on back foot. IAF with Inferior F-16s + Mig-29 vs PAF M2K, not a scenario I would like to think about regardless of what one may think of IAF training / doctrine.

I still stand by my statement that ACM (Ret) A Shamim made the right call, people may call it Green Card deal, kids to US schools etc etc, but still none the less great deal for PAF. Then again, it's just my opinion. Peace Gate ### was deal done during BB's first tenure ?

Yep, the Mirage is an obsolete platform with little to no scope for upgrades now. The F-16 on the other hand still goes strong. At the time, the F-16 was an inferior product, IIRC, the MiG-29s came with radars and SARH missiles, while the F-16 was guns/heaters only. The French are also unreliable, infact, more so than the US, look at Taiwan, the French caved under Chinese pressure, charging absurd amounts for m2k upgrades, so Taiwan would not opt for them. The PAF had the option, i am glad it did not go for them.

 

[MIRauf]

Wont be small numbers. 90-150. If you look at my previous posts, you can see how critical i was of the idea of a J-10 induction, for some reason that has changed, i said it was impossible before

It wont effect the JF-17 prog since they are of two different roles in the PAF fleet structure. Its the easiest way to counter the Rafale induction.

Wow, that's a huge U turn by you, none the less great news for PAF, rock on PAF.

 

[Akh1112]

Wow, that's a huge U turn by you, none the less great news for PAF, rock on PAF.

Yeah, i have been looking at some photos we received out of Karachi a little while back, something is out of place, alongside that, we have received some information on some movements, who knows, keep your eyes peeled, something will be announced by someone soon.

 

[MIRauf]

Yep, the Mirage is an obsolete platform with little to no scope for upgrades now. The F-16 on the other hand still goes strong. At the time, the F-16 was an inferior product, IIRC, the MiG-29s came with radars and SARH missiles, while the F-16 was guns/heaters only. The French are also unreliable, infact, more so than the US, look at Taiwan, the French caved under Chinese pressure, charging absurd amounts for m2k upgrades, so Taiwan would not opt for them. The PAF had the option, i am glad it did not go for them.

F-16 inferior ? because PAF f-16 A/B came without AIM-7s ? I thought that PAF F-16s came with top notch ECM and targeting pods of that time. The ECM would have negated any edge IAF may have had with Mig-29 / M2K in BVR.

 

[Akh1112]

F-16 inferior ? because PAF f-16 A/B came without AIM-7s ? I thought that PAF F-16s came with top notch ECM and targeting pods of that time. The ECM would have negated any edge IAF may have had with Mig-29 / M2K in BVR.

I think they were full stop missing the radar entirely. In terms of ECM as far as i know, the Block 10/15 relied on a podded ECM- i could be wrong on this, but flicking through the USAF's manual, the only references i see to ECM are referring to pods, i am unsure whether the PAF had acquired any form of ECM pod at the time, especially since it was a really rushed purchase/induction.