JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[denel]

Sir..As per my knowledge. Vs posts are not welcome .....
Rest u can search all those listed 5 paramerers on Google for JF 17 and rafale. It's not that hard.
By the way are guys going for chinese AESA or italian ?

it will be chinese; if project scope is to be kept in check.

 

[khanasifm]

Paf initial order of 150 and always had additional 100 to cover all f-7s, a5 and mirages

In fact last time I asked this number did not cover pg so if pg are added you need more then 250 but let see

 

[punit]

it will be chinese; if project scope is to be kept in check.

But as per some posts from some senior member Italian one is also under consideration..
Any way..If chinese AESA is taken does it mean full stop to western weapons for JF ? Or there is some midlde ground ?

 

[MastanKhan]

This is not about Mullah ,,, I really hate Mullahs and event like Asia bib's issue ...

this is about sentiments of general public. I am not Mullah but I consider Israel occupation to be completely illegal and is against all the standards of human rights. So why should we accept an illegal act , just because they can provide us some weapons or they can stop lobbying against us in USA?

My common people are on a principle stand and I proud to be part of such a nation ...

We have lot of problems but here we are struggling for the right cause ... we are paying for it but thats what gentleman's do ... Side with the truth no matter the consequences are

Hi,

Now if the supreme court had TERMINATED those two previous judges of lower courts for incompetence and total disregard of the guidelines---that would have thrown a massive punch at the lunatics---.

 

[Dazzler]

Sir..As per my knowledge. Vs posts are not welcome .....
Rest u can search all those listed 5 paramerers on Google for JF 17 and rafale. It's not that hard.
By the way are guys going for chinese AESA or italian ?

So much for the evidence.

 

[gambit]

Sir, there is a physical phenomenon known as fundamental frequency. Given a geometrical object, the reflected signal will have certain resonant frequencies determined by the shape of the overall object. Rafale controls this shape carefully, and SPECTRA selectively cancels the major resonant frequencies, which results in a drastically reduced signature. Do you have any research studies that show the result of using AESA radars against this system? A multitude of frequencies doesn't matter if the geometric shape of the body is controlled to create a desired reflection. Now you can go and perform organic research, try to replicate this in a laboratory, use AESA radar against it, and if you get some results you can talk confidently. Otherwise, we have to place a question mark.

I am not coming up with my own set of assumptions, being pessimistic is a virtue, especially when you have a conniving enemy breathing down your neck.

So you or whatever sources are saying that a body's resonant freq or frequencies are independent of the operating freq of the seeking radar? I would like to see this, please.

 

[cranwerkhan]

There is nothing like "Low End" or "High End".

Before AESA/PESA, the radars used to be steered towards different directions to scan the area because of their limited field of view this mechanism of physically steering the antenna is Mechanical steering. But AESA/PESA changed this because the beams of radio waves can be electronically steered to point in different angle without moving the antenna, this is Electronic steering. Both are used to increase the field of view(FOV).

Electronic steering has a limitation, steering of more than about 60 degrees off the perpendicular causes a dropoff in performance and above that dropoff is quite drastic which leave it unusable. So to get the better coverage there are three approaches.

1- Gimble Mount:

This is simple mechanical/hydraulic driven mount used on previous generations of radars. Just like its being used on KLJ-7(V2) right now.

This will increase the FOV to 240 Degrees and could maintain the best performance on most angles.

The downsides are; the delay in the scan of full FOV refresh based like previous generations, increase in weight, less reliable/increased failure points because of number of components involved, not as compact and maintaince intensive comparatively.

Irbis-E is devleoped following this route.

​

2- Side/Cheek Arrays:

In this approach fornt got one fixed array and multiple smaller arrays are attached to the sides.

This increases the FOV to 300+ Degrees, FOV scan is instant, lest failure points and most reliable with graceful degradtion.

The downside are; side array's performance is not as good as fornt array so the increased angle will have lesser quality i.e. KLJ-7A front array got 1K+ TRMs and side arrays got ~600 TRMs so the quality of performance will not be equal on the sides. It like having a HD OLED screen in middle and non-HD LCD sides (i.e. resolution diffrence). This approch is power, cooling and processing power hungry, because as the number of TRMs increases so does the power consumption and require more cooling, more cooling needs more power. Also When TRMs are increased it produce more data which needs more processing power will require more time to refine data and this will need more power and cooling. So a single array will perform at its best quality with best speed in limited resourses rather then mutliple arrays.

F22, J20 and KLJ-7A etc are using this approch.

​

3- Swach/Angled Array:

In this approach Array is attached to a plate which is angled(usually 45 Degrees) which rotates.

This increases the FOV to 210+ which is equilent to Gimble approach but its alot more reliable/lesser points of failure because their are lesser parts and rotaing can be extremly realiably for extened peroids of times. This approch decrease the need of maintaince. This approch is better than Side/Cheek array because it requires lesser power, cooling and processing. So the radar can work for longer duration on max performance with extreemly good quality while keeping up the speed. The performance will be also more uniform than Gimble and Side array approch. The scan refresh rate will be near instantaneous. Its more compact than the gimble. So this is the smartest approch which is being used by most of the new genration radrs.

This approch is being used by Typhoon, Gripen etc.

​

PAF has selected the best approach which will give the best performance with the best quality at all times reliably. So this is the best approach for JF-17. KLJ-7A is a generation ahead of other radars which have been previously developed just because of the advancement in technology. It's a GaN-based radar with compact modules of 20W power each and got 1K+ TRMs.
Essentially PAF has got there love back in form of JF17. PAF must go for in-house production as we gonna make at least 150 more aircrafts for our need.

Very informative post.. deserve rating

 

[MastanKhan]

Aight Mr. SJW, turn off your internet if you feel offended, I don't give a sh*t about your feelings.

Hi,

You offer nothing to the board---and yet you have an attitude against someone who brings a wealth of knowledge---and it is a shame and a disgrace that none of the moderators have deleted your insulting posts---.

 

[CriticalThought]

So you or whatever sources are saying that a body's resonant freq or frequencies are independent of the operating freq of the seeking radar? I would like to see this, please.

It's the sum total of cancellation from the reflection, and phase shifts in the reflected waves. It is not independent of it, but a carefully designed shape and chosen materials can force the reflection to be within a fairly strict range over a wide range of frequencies.

 

[ziaulislam]

its not only the aircraft but weapon systems as well that is an issue

with used f16s you cant expect top of the line weapons as that avenue is definitively closed

the best course of action is thus full focus on jf-17, address some of issues with payload and range within the basic design, like adding rd93ma and adding CFTs instead of enlarging or adding too many hardpoints

 

[M16174]

Actually arabs has lost their way ... leaders of arab countries are going to recognize israel very soon ...

Actually all this has a religious background as well ... all three monothesit religions were foretold about the great war to be started in middle east with israel being the center of power ...

Anyways everyone has it set of belief but above all is importance of human life ... people of palestine are sufferring badly ... they deserve a better life ...


Not obsolete but if thunder will be able to take on rafael on its own that rafael will not remain the decisive factor ... so achieving this with fractional cost is awsome on part of Pakistan ... accept it or not ... a fighter aircraft as low as 40 million a piece can take on rafael and flanker is a nightmare for you guys ... lower cost we can reduce numeric superiority ...

Absolutely right.
A teacher of mine, i call the most intelligent man on earth after an isi agent, he has knowledge more than anyone regarding International affairs and their reality.
According to him, Arabs of this age are nothing else than jammed mind people, they need nothing to research or think upon for economy or defence, just oil fountains are running and filling their palaces, they need nothing to think about humanity.They can buy any weapon they wish to. [you know why Saudis paid help money to Bhutto for nuclear prog? Bhutto had made a promise to share a nuc weapon with them.... foolish arabs, who shares their nuclear weapon???????] Israel is just a toy for them to enjoy.
Similar to what British did to us in 1857,thats going to happen with them.

The body kit of Corolla is in the works..

Friend, i don't know if blk3 is really stealth or not. But what do i knowabout this picture, its true but merging my knowledge and this picture's output,
blk3 will be 4gen+ ,as picture explains a bubble canopy , f16 flight stick.
i also want to clear that, all stealth fighter include a radar covering cylinder with sharp curves and lines not like an f16 or jf17blk1,2 cover, it is like j20,su57,f22,f35 etc. but here it seems old fashioned still. Just zippers like line don't clearly reflect a stealth,
Also Pak can't make a stealth right now bcs it is much costly , also who is going to provide iron ball paint for outer covering.
Jf-17 blk4,5 might get stealth.
blk3 will just gain ability to beat f22,rafle stealth through radar.
God knows the truth. Our Prayers with PAF.

 

[Dubious]

Aight Mr. SJW, turn off your internet if you feel offended, I don't give a sh*t about your feelings.

Child, behave in a civilized manner. Consider this your final warning...After this I will issue you warnings as a personal favour to keep the thread decent!

Keep to the topic and I dont really care what the matter is, it can be said in a polite and civilized manner!

 

[gambit]

It's the sum total of cancellation from the reflection, and phase shifts in the reflected waves. It is not independent of it, but a carefully designed shape and chosen materials can force the reflection to be within a fairly strict range over a wide range of frequencies.

Sure...

In reference to post 6157, an image which I posted on this forum yrs ago to explain the lethality of the AESA radar...

Image C contains 9 logical arrays. The process is called 'subarray partitioning'. And lest you think I made up that phrase...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6068503/

In general, the AESA architecture allows dynamic reconfiguration of the antenna aperture, including partitioning of the array elements into subarrays, to form multiple simultaneous transmit and/or receive beams in independent directions with different beam patterns and waveforms.

Image C contains 9 subarrays or logical radars.

The black dots are three subarrays. To keep it short, the three subarrays SIMULTANEOUSLY serves as volume search and height/elevation radars.

But it is the six subarrays -- the many (+) pluses -- that make the AESA so lethal, even for SPECTRA.

1- Each subarray can transmit in a different freq with variable pulse characteristics.

2- Each subarray will be frequency agile.

3- Each subarray will be in LPI mode. See item 2.

4- All subarrays will be operating SIMULTANEOUSLY at the same target.

5- The subarray choreography software coordinate the transmit patterns and process the returns. See item 3.

SPECTRA will not be overwhelmed. The Raffle will simply NOT know it is being painted. But even if we are generous and tell SPECTRA that the Raffle is being painted, it is unlikely that SPECTRA can compensate for six SIMULTANEOUS assault in different freqs.

So for what you posted, the Raffle is hardly an ideal body. The jet is not shaped for radar low observability to start.

What I posted about image C is not speculative. It is real in the lab and in the field. I do not mean that image C have been executed in that exact manner, even though it can be. I mean that our AESA systems can do radar things that no one expected.

Finally, as an FYI regarding the three black dots lines for the volume and height/elevation subarrays...

For any non-circular antenna/array, the beam shape and sweep pattern is always perpendicular from the antenna/array physical shape. That is why the AWACS antenna is nearly flat and mounted horizontal. Its beam shape is also flat and projected as vertical. The sweep pattern is ideally for volume search.

Everything I posted above -- you can use the appropriate keywords for your own research.

 

[Windjammer]

I am what you see in the shadows.

 

[LKJ86]

I am what you see in the shadows.

View attachment 518874

Zhuhai Airshow-2018.