JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[messiach]

No escape from R&D. Straight path is the shortest.

Hi,

And how many billions in dollars are we talking about---.

Secondly---and after 25 years---when we have an engine similar to the one in F35---that engine would be obsolete---.

Basically---as in auto industry---those nations who have already built successful auto engine---will continue to build them---.

Similarly---there will be no new modern fighter aircraft engine manufacturers except for those who are already in the fray---.

There would be no new auto engine manufacturer in the coming decades---. Only JOINT VENTURES if any---.

Pakistan should get involved in a joint venture with china or russia---.

 

[The Accountant]

No escape from R&D. Straight path is the shortest.

Agreed, but straight path is not what you are suggesting, the straight path is to establish steel and special alloys industry first ...

We don't have a single large-scale iron manufacturing plant, we are importing raw iron from outside and we are talking about special grade alloys,, How can we do that when our engineers have not even seen the process iron smelting?

This is different than nukes as that was one of research and had no commercial basis... For military you need to have a commercial viability, otherwise, it will result in Tejas,

 

[Bossman]

Agreed, but straight path is not what you are suggesting, the straight path is to establish steel and special alloys industry first ...

We don't have a single large-scale iron manufacturing plant, we are importing raw iron from outside and we are talking about special grade alloys,, How can we do that when our engineers have not even seen the process iron smelting?

This is different than nukes as that was one of research and had no commercial basis... For military you need to have a commercial viability, otherwise, it will result in Tejas,

You are wrong about no large scale steel alloy manufacturing capacity. Check People Steel Mills. It is run by SPD and provides alloys, casting and forging for all strategic programs. It has capacity for aviation grade steel also. Recently control of HMC (Heavy Mechanical Complex)has also been transfered to SPD. Good to do some research before forming expressing an opinion.

 

[CriticalThought]

You are wrong about no large scale steel alloy manufacturing capacity. Check People Steel Mills. It is run by SPD and provides alloys, casting and forging for all strategic programs. It has capacity for aviation grade steel also. Recently control of HMC (Heavy Mechanical Complex)has also been transfered to SPD. Good to do some research before forming expressing an opinion.

Had a look at their product portfolio. Superb! But for an indigenous fighter jet engine, we need much more than that. The highest percentage of Nickel in an alloy that People's Steel Mills produces in 22%. For engines, we need more than 50%. Then, its not just a matter of producing the alloy. For turbine blades, the entire blade needs to be grown as a single crystal, then shaped into the required form. Finally, even the non-single crystal parts need special machining. We need not just a foundry, but a metallurgy company.

 

[The Accountant]

You are wrong about no large scale steel alloy manufacturing capacity. Check People Steel Mills. It is run by SPD and provides alloys, casting and forging for all strategic programs. It has capacity for aviation grade steel also. Recently control of HMC (Heavy Mechanical Complex)has also been transfered to SPD. Good to do some research before forming expressing an opinion.

really? do you know who is Director Finance of People Steel Mill ? Director Finance of People Steel Mills is MA Urdu, and he don't know about basic finance, and same is the condition of the whole organization.

This is hillarious, you are comparing a small factory (a mere karkhana) to an industry. The capacity of People's Steel Mill is 70,000 metric tons which is not even 1% of annual steel consumption of Pakistan. The steel you are referring is upto level of use in the manufacturing of ball bearings, springs, plastic molders, cutting tools ...

Similar level of the lead alloy we are making in backyard of my company ...

My father and his brother spent their whole life in Steel Mills, and I brought in a housing society owned by Pakistan Steel Mills so I know the capabilities of steel industry of Pakistan ...

The aviation-grade steel is beyond the imagination of people of People Steel Mills ...

You are missing the point here, why are we searching for our next generation MBT into other countries? HIT is basically an organization with a sole purpose of manufacturing defence products. Had they been able to run commercial operations it will be easy for them to engage in R&D activity from the profits earned but in absence of any commercial activity organization like HIT, PAC cannot do R&D require to develop our own technical know how of required future defence equipment and we will be stuck on to license manufacturing or joint development only ....

 

[CriticalThought]

really? do you know who is Director Finance of People Steel Mill ? Director Finance of People Steel Mills is MA Urdu, and he don't know about basic finance, and same is the condition of the whole organization.

This is hillarious, you are comparing a small factory (a mere karkhana) to an industry. The capacity of People's Steel Mill is 70,000 metric tons which is not even 1% of annual steel consumption of Pakistan. The steel you are referring is upto level of use in the manufacturing of ball bearings, springs, plastic molders, cutting tools ...

Similar level of the lead alloy we are making in backyard of my company ...

My father and his brother spent their whole life in Steel Mills, and I brought in a housing society owned by Pakistan Steel Mills so I know the capabilities of steel industry of Pakistan ...

The aviation-grade steel is beyond the imagination of people of People Steel Mills ...

You are missing the point here, why are we searching for our next generation MBT into other countries? HIT is basically an organization with a sole purpose of manufacturing defence products. Had they been able to run commercial operations it will be easy for them to engage in R&D activity from the profits earned but in absence of any commercial activity organization like HIT, PAC cannot do R&D require to develop our own technical know how of required future defence equipment and we will be stuck on to license manufacturing or joint development only ....

My only argument is that commercialization doesn't need civil involvement. A separate, dedicated branch of the military can be formed that can employ as many civilians as it likes.

 

[The Accountant]

Had a look at their product portfolio. Superb! But for an indigenous fighter jet engine, we need much more than that. The highest percentage of Nickel in an alloy that People's Steel Mills produces in 22%. For engines, we need more than 50%. Then, its not just a matter of producing the alloy. For turbine blades, the entire blade needs to be grown as a single crystal, then shaped into the required form. Finally, even the non-single crystal parts need special machining. We need not just a foundry, but a metallurgy company.

Exactly, People's Steel Mill is just a foundry and we have multiple organization like this, but they can't make even a single part for aircrafts...

My only argument is that commercialization doesn't need civil involvement. A separate, dedicated branch of the military can be formed that can employ as many civilians as it likes.

I agree, but generally military organizations tends to get corrupt in longer run due to bureaucratic working style,,,

Best way (infact the only way) is to establish the organization under the military ownership and then after a successfull operation, military should commercialize it,,,

 

[CriticalThought]

Exactly, People's Steel Mill is just a foundry and we have multiple organization like this, but they can't make even a single part for aircrafts...


I agree, but generally military organizations tends to get corrupt in longer run due to bureaucratic working style,,,

Best way (infact the only way) is to establish the organization under the military ownership and then after a successfull operation, military should commercialize it,,,

Well, to be completely fair, this is what their product brochure says. There are quite a few aircraft applications:

http://psmltd.com/dowload/Peoples Steel Mills Ltd.pdf

 

[The Accountant]

Well, to be completely fair, this is what their product brochure says. There are quite a few aircraft applications:

http://psmltd.com/dowload/Peoples Steel Mills Ltd.pdf

View attachment 505822

Bro this is the steel grade being produced but they are not being used in the stated purpose ... You can put it like this that as I am a chartered accountant and I start advertising myself, as auditor, tax consultant, financial advisor, financial manager, forensic auditor etc etc. Technically it will be ok but practically I don't have experience and capacity of all these areas ...

I can explain you it with the example of Pak Suzuki ... You know that Indus motors and Pak Suzuki established plants adjacent to Pakistan Steel with the expectation that in future all of the steel and iron-based raw material will be procured directly but they keep on importing even the outer body sheet of cars despite of Pakistan Steel having the capability of manufacturing those steel grade sheets ... The reason was that the thickness variation allowed in the sheets as per standards of Pak Suzuki was 0.001 mm (I don't remember the exact thickness, therefore, taking an imaginary no.) but the variation in thickness of Pakistan Steel Mill was much higher and therefore they were not useable ...

Steel grade is one thing but in aviation industry precision engineering is much more important ...

A cutting variation of .001 mm has a potential impact on life of the airframe ... This is precision science out of control of the current engineering workforce of Pakistan ...

We are using micrometers whereas requirement is of laser-based measurements and cutting equipments ...

 

[CriticalThought]

Bro this is the steel grade being produced but they are not being used in the stated purpose ... You can put it like this that as I am a chartered accountant and I start advertising myself, as auditor, tax consultant, financial advisor, financial manager, forensic auditor etc etc. Technically it will be ok but practically I don't have experience and capacity of all these areas ...

I can explain you it with the example of Pak Suzuki ... You know that Indus motors and Pak Suzuki established plants adjacent to Pakistan Steel with the expectation that in future all of the steel and iron-based raw material will be procured directly but they keep on importing even the outer body sheet of cars despite of Pakistan Steel having the capability of manufacturing those steel grade sheets ... The reason was that the thickness variation allowed in the sheets as per standards of Pak Suzuki was 0.001 mm (I don't remember the exact thickness, therefore, taking an imaginary no.) but the variation in thickness of Pakistan Steel Mill was much higher and therefore they were not useable ...

Steel grade is one thing but in aviation industry precision engineering is much more important ...

A cutting variation of .001 mm has a potential impact on life of the airframe ... This is precision science out of control of the current engineering workforce of Pakistan ...

We are using micrometers whereas requirement is of laser-based measurements and cutting equipments ...

Well, definitely PAC is doing that sort of fine machining. But I agree, our precision machining isn't up to par for 5th gen. Even larger fourth gen is questionable.

HIT has its own forge and foundry I believe.

I would love to know where the steel for PAC comes from

 

[The Accountant]

Well, definitely PAC is doing that sort of fine machining. But I agree, our precision machining isn't up to par for 5th gen. Even larger fourth gen is questionable.

HIT has its own forge and foundry I believe.

I would love to know where the steel for PAC comes from

HIT is partially forging its own steel however the issue is not the manufacturing of existing products but to keep on developing new products organization requires profit from which they can perform R&D ... its not about capability only but economics of sustained operations and growth ... another such example as PIA ... it is not in common knowledge that PIA used to have a whole dept. for research and development of PAF ... they were maintaining, procuring and manufacturing few of the parts that PAC could not have purchased or manufactured directly and we keep on doing that till PIA was profitable ... but now the department is closed

 

[Eagle_Nest]

You are wrong about no large scale steel alloy manufacturing capacity. Check People Steel Mills. It is run by SPD and provides alloys, casting and forging for all strategic programs. It has capacity for aviation grade steel also. Recently control of HMC (Heavy Mechanical Complex)has also been transfered to SPD. Good to do some research before forming expressing an opinion.

we also have aluminium and another alloy manufacturing, molding, shaping facility.

 

[Sinnerman108]

I mean acquiring full intellectual property rights along with the entire infrastructure to build from scratch.

that doesn't happen,
At least I have not seen that happen in letter and spirit yet.

 

[CriticalThought]

that doesn't happen,
At least I have not seen that happen in letter and spirit yet.

It's all about negotiation. There was a time when nations like S. Korea and Japan and Germany were completely backward. Today, they are at the forefront of research.

 

[The Accountant]

This do happen in the form of mergers and aquisitions ... chinese are purchasing all semi conductor companies around the world...

Merger of sony and erricson to form sony erricson ...

Even lockhead martin aquire a no of defence giants to aquire technologies they didnt had ...

that doesn't happen,
At least I have not seen that happen in letter and spirit yet.