JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Ultima Thule]

This do happen in the form of mergers and aquisitions ... chinese are purchasing all semi conductor companies around the world...

Merger of sony and erricson to form sony erricson ...

Even lockhead martin aquire a no of defence giants to aquire technologies they didnt had ...

no you're wrong @The Accountant lockheed martin did absorb local defense giants in the past like martin merittia, general dynamics (fighter development division), northorp grumman for (f-35 development) @The Accountant

 

[Sinnerman108]

This do happen in the form of mergers and aquisitions ... chinese are purchasing all semi conductor companies around the world...

Merger of sony and erricson to form sony erricson ...

Even lockhead martin aquire a no of defence giants to aquire technologies they didnt had ...

These are purely commercial mergers and ventures.
When sensitive technologies are involved that can have national level implication, things are not simple.

IBM and Cisco are two leading technology firms,
they cannot even sell some of their products without state department's approval.

 

[MastanKhan]

Agreed, but straight path is not what you are suggesting, the straight path is to establish steel and special alloys industry first ...

We don't have a single large-scale iron manufacturing plant, we are importing raw iron from outside and we are talking about special grade alloys,, How can we do that when our engineers have not even seen the process iron smelting?

This is different than nukes as that was one of research and had no commercial basis... For military you need to have a commercial viability, otherwise, it will result in Tejas,

Hi,

Thankyou---

 

[The Accountant]

These are purely commercial mergers and ventures.
When sensitive technologies are involved that can have national level implication, things are not simple.

IBM and Cisco are two leading technology firms,
they cannot even sell some of their products without state department's approval.

These are the examples of big mergers ... you can start with small firms ... you can buy companies with dual use companies ... i dont want to reveal actual but you should study the way we aquire few techs for nukes and the way chinese are aquirimg semi conductor industries ...

 

[messiach]

Exactly. Cisco gave us a rough time over a router management program.

IBM and Cisco are two leading technology firms,
they cannot even sell some of their products without state department's approval.

The academia, government agencies & civil industrial complex has to come together with longterm policy goals. Its not a job for the military industrial complex or one steel mill. Only then it will be an achievable target.

Agreed, but straight path is not what you are suggesting, the straight path is to establish steel and special alloys industry first ...

We don't have a single large-scale iron manufacturing plant, we are importing raw iron from outside and we are talking about special grade alloys,, How can we do that when our engineers have not even seen the process iron smelting?

This is different than nukes as that was one of research and had no commercial basis... For military you need to have a commercial viability, otherwise, it will result in Tejas,

Multiple agencies have to pool resources to complete these kind of tasks. The failure rate is preposterously high.
Its not about money, it more like organization of resources, longterm planning, time commitment for R&D and understanding the odds against success with appropriate backup planning.

Someone mentioned about RE @Oscar & i remembered one of our colleague use to say & i quote ' you need to know the 95% before you attempt to RE the 5%.'

I wrote 5 lines.

Hi,

And how many billions in dollars are we talking about---.

Secondly---and after 25 years---when we have an engine similar to the one in F35---that engine would be obsolete---.

Basically---as in auto industry---those nations who have already built successful auto engine---will continue to build them---.

Similarly---there will be no new modern fighter aircraft engine manufacturers except for those who are already in the fray---.

There would be no new auto engine manufacturer in the coming decades---. Only JOINT VENTURES if any---.

Pakistan should get involved in a joint venture with china or russia---.

 

[SQ8]

This do happen in the form of mergers and aquisitions ... chinese are purchasing all semi conductor companies around the world...

Merger of sony and erricson to form sony erricson ...

Even lockhead martin aquire a no of defence giants to aquire technologies they didnt had ...

Today TATA owns JLR, reliance is acquiring stakes in multiple tech firms and so on. These are not government ventures but private industry giving back.

Pakistani billionaires on the other hand are all built on banking, real estate and loot, without any other claim to fame.
Their contributions to local R&D are next to nothing- people like AQ Khan do not count as they are a mixed military-industrial complex that is essentially a pariah in both the international R&D and procurement community.
Here intelligence or skill becomes irrelevant when your intelligence is directed towards making sure that your preferred kickbacks get the contract rather than the right equipment.


So when the people are not interested in doing anything other than personal wealth versus corporate growth, then you wont get anything out of it. Pound for pound, the average Indian is more patriotic than ANY random Pakistani which is why we have already lost the technology race with them.

Why that has leverage over programs such as the JF-17 and Azm is in brain drain and dishonesty in purpose from those involved in the program. So while currently their programs are also plagued with severe mismanagement and R&D hurdles, 10 years down they wont be.

In all honesty I do not see a bright future for Pakistani equipment or force generation- those that are vying for change will continue to fight a good fight but it’s simply a case of too little too late.

Even if tomorrow we strike oil by the trillion tons, the market forces wont be enough to make it relevant for anything other than international purchases.

Pakistan and Pakistanis have nothing to offer the world in terms of industrial or technological knowhow.
What will you offer in return for a merger?

Joint projects are the only way forward to meet Defense needs, but they too are prey to the same inherited dishonesty of purpose.

 

[MastanKhan]

Exactly. Cisco gave us a rough time over a router management program.


The academia, government agencies & civil industrial complex has to come together with longterm policy goals. Its not a job for the military industrial complex or one steel mill. Only then it will be an achievable target.



Multiple agencies have to pool resources to complete these kind of tasks. The failure rate is preposterously high.
Its not about money, it more like organization of resources, longterm planning, time commitment for R&D and understanding the odds against success with appropriate backup planning.

Someone mentioned about RE @Oscar & i remembered one of our colleague use to say & i quote ' you need to know the 95% before you attempt to RE the 5%.'

I wrote 5 lines.

Hi,

Yes---I saw that---a momentary surprise---.

 

[messiach]

Reality check. Just add our duffer&dud suited booted 'bureaucratic gentry' to this list of billionaires.

Today TATA owns J

Pakistani billionaires on the other hand are all built on banking, real estate and loot, without any other claim to fame.

OK. Yiou have a point.

The way intellectual property rights work these days, it makes no sense to retreat into a cocoon and create a technology from scratch. Even if we were to accomplish this feat, we would not be able to scale it financially by selling to other countries. Which is why, any financially viable enterprise MUST start with license production that allows full modifications. Then, start performing research to incrementally improve the technology in novel ways and start patenting these innovations.

I believe a far more viable path is to get license rights for RD-93, or AL-31/41, and then start from there.

@Oscar @Sinnerman108

 

[SQ8]

Reality check. Just add our duffer&dud suited booted 'bureaucratic gentry' to this list of billionaires.

Go down to Sindh Club in Karachi or Islamabad club ; you’ll find this stagnant lot of pretentious folk sitting around on their banking,automotive, food or textile wealth(whatever is left of that industry).
They have no interest other than making more money for their family, no wish for local research and no interest in anything beyond a few million rupees to Edhi or a fancy NGO for their daughters running around barewaisted and in capris.
That is the extent of Pakistani wealth in the .02% and the ownership of “industrial” base. What is left is under the military institutions is part of their “institutional earnings” and they wont change their mindset because they are military and their intake of people is Pakistani- Pakistanis who bring the same mindset that has led to this situation.

To put in another perspective, the current finance minister who is touted as the next warren buffet has to face the same institutionalized termites that plague all levels of bureaucracy.
Not saying the situation wont improve, but whether it will improve in time is what matters.

 

[Bilal.]

Go down to Sindh Club in Karachi or Islamabad club ; you’ll find this stagnant lot of pretentious folk sitting around on their banking,automotive, food or textile wealth(whatever is left of that industry).
They have no interest other than making more money for their family, no wish for local research and no interest in anything beyond a few million rupees to Edhi or a fancy NGO for their daughters running around barewaisted and in capris.
That is the extent of Pakistani wealth in the .02% and the ownership of “industrial” base. What is left is under the military institutions is part of their “institutional earnings” and they wont change their mindset because they are military and their intake of people is Pakistani- Pakistanis who bring the same mindset that has led to this situation.

To put in another perspective, the current finance minister who is touted as the next warren buffet has to face the same institutionalized termites that plague all levels of bureaucracy.
Not saying the situation wont improve, but whether it will improve in time is what matters.

I think nationalization has left a big scar in the enterprising nature of our businessmen. While they were setting up much more risk taking venture before it, one can see a marked change leaning towards risk aversion afterwards...

I also think that as the baby boomers and Gen Xers retire and fade and the next gen comes into control the enterprising nature will return as the shock of nationalization fades from the collective memory of the business community.

 

[Bossman]

really? do you know who is Director Finance of People Steel Mill ? Director Finance of People Steel Mills is MA Urdu, and he don't know about basic finance, and same is the condition of the whole organization.

This is hillarious, you are comparing a small factory (a mere karkhana) to an industry. The capacity of People's Steel Mill is 70,000 metric tons which is not even 1% of annual steel consumption of Pakistan. The steel you are referring is upto level of use in the manufacturing of ball bearings, springs, plastic molders, cutting tools ...

Similar level of the lead alloy we are making in backyard of my company ...

My father and his brother spent their whole life in Steel Mills, and I brought in a housing society owned by Pakistan Steel Mills so I know the capabilities of steel industry of Pakistan ...

The aviation-grade steel is beyond the imagination of people of People Steel Mills ...

You are missing the point here, why are we searching for our next generation MBT into other countries? HIT is basically an organization with a sole purpose of manufacturing defence products. Had they been able to run commercial operations it will be easy for them to engage in R&D activity from the profits earned but in absence of any commercial activity organization like HIT, PAC cannot do R&D require to develop our own technical know how of required future defence equipment and we will be stuck on to license manufacturing or joint development only ....

Who cares about the finance director of PSML, I know the MD Who was partly responsible for resurrecting a closed mill and upgrading it with Austrian technology and machines to supply alloys for Pakistan strategic programs. He is a UK qualified PHD in metallurgy. Do you even know what SPD stands for and what it does? The output of the PSML is 100% for defence products. They have a website so check. Your statement about how the products are used is also wrong. Also it is not the size that matter but the specialized alloys needed for missiles, nuclear reactors and centrifuges. Maraging steel used in our centrifuges comes from here as well as the blanks used by HIT for manufacturing 125 mm guns fitted Al Khalid and Al Zarrar. Living in the steel mill colony does not make you an expert and there is no comparison between PSM and PSML. The first one was a low end ore mill and corrupt from end to end RIP.

HIT is partially forging its own steel however the issue is not the manufacturing of existing products but to keep on developing new products organization requires profit from which they can perform R&D ... its not about capability only but economics of sustained operations and growth ... another such example as PIA ... it is not in common knowledge that PIA used to have a whole dept. for research and development of PAF ... they were maintaining, procuring and manufacturing few of the parts that PAC could not have purchased or manufactured directly and we keep on doing that till PIA was profitable ... but now the department is closed

What you are referring to is the Precision Engineering Complex. Although part of PIA, it is managed directly by PAF. Currently the head is AVM Usman Pasha. It might have already been carved out of PIA and seems to be up and running

 

[The Accountant]

Today TATA owns JLR, reliance is acquiring stakes in multiple tech firms and so on. These are not government ventures but private industry giving back.

Pakistani billionaires on the other hand are all built on banking, real estate and loot, without any other claim to fame.
Their contributions to local R&D are next to nothing- people like AQ Khan do not count as they are a mixed military-industrial complex that is essentially a pariah in both the international R&D and procurement community.
Here intelligence or skill becomes irrelevant when your intelligence is directed towards making sure that your preferred kickbacks get the contract rather than the right equipment.


So when the people are not interested in doing anything other than personal wealth versus corporate growth, then you wont get anything out of it. Pound for pound, the average Indian is more patriotic than ANY random Pakistani which is why we have already lost the technology race with them.

Why that has leverage over programs such as the JF-17 and Azm is in brain drain and dishonesty in purpose from those involved in the program. So while currently their programs are also plagued with severe mismanagement and R&D hurdles, 10 years down they wont be.

In all honesty I do not see a bright future for Pakistani equipment or force generation- those that are vying for change will continue to fight a good fight but it’s simply a case of too little too late.

Even if tomorrow we strike oil by the trillion tons, the market forces wont be enough to make it relevant for anything other than international purchases.

Pakistan and Pakistanis have nothing to offer the world in terms of industrial or technological knowhow.
What will you offer in return for a merger?

Joint projects are the only way forward to meet Defense needs, but they too are prey to the same inherited dishonesty of purpose.

Agreed except for one thing ... there is never too late ... ome can always fight back

Who cares about the finance director of PSML, I know the MD Who was partly responsible for resurrecting a closed mill and upgrading it with Austrian technology and machines to supply alloys for Pakistan strategic programs. He is a UK qualified PHD in metallurgy. Do you even know what SPD stands for and what it does? The output of the PSML is 100% for defence products. They have a website so check. Your statement about how the products is used is also wrong. Also it is not the size that matter but the specialized alloys needed for missiles, nuclear reactors and centrifuges. Maraging steel used in our centrifuges comes from here as well as the blanks used by HIT for manufacturing 125 mm guns fitted Al Khalid and Al Zarrar. Living in the steel mill colony does not make you an expert and there is no comparison between PSM and PSML. The first one was a low end ore mill and corrupt from end to end RIP.



What you are referring to is the Precision Engineering Complex. Although part of PIA, it is managed directly by PAF. Currently the head is AVM Usman Pasha. It might have already been carved out of PIA and seems to be up and running

Do check my other posts as well ... you are dreaming that a foundry will provide you aviation grade alloys ... u must be dreaming ...

Ok lets assume i am wrong then what new products did this foundry of your introduced ? Why we are looking outside for upgradation of our tanks

 

[Bossman]

Agreed except for one thing ... there is never too late ... ome can always fight back


Do check my other posts as well ... you are dreaming that a foundry will provide you aviation grade alloys ... u must be dreaming ...

Ok lets assume i am wrong then what new products did this foundry of your introduced ? Why we are looking outside for upgradation of our tanks

Aviation grade steel is a broad range. PSML in its current state can supply, for example steel for aircraft landing gears but not alloys for jet engine cores. Also read my post carefully I used the term steel alloy for PSML because it a steel mill and NOT all metal alloys.The only reason I am posting is to refute your ill informed broad statements. I never said Pakistan can do everything but it can do more than what you have been saying. Upgradtion of tanks is much more than steel. It is also about risk management by picking up tested products rather than starting every thing for scratch. It is about cost. It is about time. If Ukraine has an off the shelf solution for T80 upgrade I would rather negotiate with them than start from scratch. Very few countries in the world have the capacity to produce major weapon systems end to end. India, with a much bigger industrial than us, has tried to do what you are suggesting and failed miserably. Before you teach others to focus on R&D you should do more learning and reasearch yourself.

 

[The Accountant]

Aviation grade steel is a broad range. PSML in its current state can supply, for example steel for aircraft landing gears but not alloys for jet engine cores. Also read my post carefully I used the term steel alloy for PSML because it a steel mill and NOT all metal alloys.The only reason I am posting is to refute your ill informed broad statements. I never said Pakistan can do everything but it can do more than what you have been saying. Upgradtion of tanks is much more than steel. It is also about risk management by picking up tested products rather than starting every thing for scratch. It is about cost. It is about time. If Ukraine has an off the shelf solution for T80 upgrade I would rather negotiate with them than start from scratch. Very few countries in the world have the capacity to produce major weapon systems end to end. India, with a much bigger industrial than us, has tried to do what you are suggesting and failed miserably. Before you teach others to focus on R&D you should do more learning and reasearch yourself.

The table on the website you are mentioning is stating steel grade they have the capability to manufacture and the probable uses of Steel but it never means that they are actually manufacturing or can manufacture the landing gears of an aircraft ,,, There is a hell of a difference in capability of preparing a certain type of steel grade and actual product out of it ... To further your understanding, what do you think that same steel is being used on a single engine two pilot propeller plane and on a fighter aircraft or an A380?

In your earlier post, you said that I was living in a steel colony it does not mean that I know about the industry.

My father who spend 27 years of his life in monitoring blast furnace production and I use to go visit Pakistan Steel Mill just for fun ...
Even my school projects were based on Pakistan Steel Mills as those schools were owned and oeprated by Pakistan Steel and all of our teachers were employees of Pakistan Steel and some of them were were on duty engineers
I have operated the crane through which molten steel was being transferred from the furnace to rails to be taken for next process...
We were living with the engineers that were running the bloody biggest steel mill of the country and I remember at the time of modernization of People's Steel Mill they requested employees of Steel Mill to join them which most of them rejected due to small scales of operation of that organization ...

You know shit about Steel Industry and Steel products and making big claims just based on sonme website ...

Our steel quality is as low that we don't even produce products as simple as steel sheets and we are dreaming of manufacturing fighter aircraft turbine blades ... Those who have an understanding of engineering and its technicalities must be laughing at you ...

This was my last post on the topic to show you the reality but if you want to keep on living in a dream world then be it , I can't help you out you can think whatevery you want ..

 

[messiach]

Catic authorities looks satisfied with FC-1B & forms basis for block number 3.