JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[araz]

Islam isn't the name of what is accepted by so-called 'self respecting Muslims', but rather, the Commandments of Allah the Almighty as Revealed upon and executed by Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, and followed by the Guided Companions May Allah be Pleased with them. Invoking 'self-respecting Muslims' and thus, by implication, calling others non-self respecting is pretty crass. Needless to say, you have neither a clue of Islam, Islamic History, nor any clue of defence matters. So keep you 'opinion' to yourself and increase your knowledge.

I have said what i wanted to say. I do not engage in useless rhetorical discussions. That's not my way. What is have said, It may not be for you but for many other people who would read all the discussions here and may or may not form an opinion. Defence Pk has much broader audience than anyother forum in Pakistan, regardless of any topic it is the most active Pakistani forum there is. It is for them, that i have even bothered to respond to your 'opinion'. So that it may be known that a counter narrative was proposed.

Despite that, people are intelligent enough to read both narratives and figure out the right way for themselves. Neither you nor i can force anyone.

Have a nice day and try to be nice to all around you.

Offtopic but brother your statement is also a distortion of islam... So keep it to some other topic and forum where i can explain how wrong you are ... For example try to search what punsihment did muslims gave to jews tribe involved in conspiracy of ghazwa.e.khandaq ...

All mens if the tribes were ordered to be killed and woman and childrens were ordered to leave madina ...

Dont want to drag it here if you want to debate then open a thread and invite me

Three people have jumped into a debate which has no relevance to the topic at hand. I am assuming that all of you are knowledgeable adults so will respond in a round about way to finish this debate.
I intentionally chose to not respond to @Critical Thought's response in response to my post. Do you gentlemen think I am so daft that I cannot respond with some historical perspective? Does my 11 years and 5000 odd posts teach you nothing about me?Why do you think I am retained in the think tank inspite of my repeated requests to bow out?
defence.pk is now a global forum. Being global it catches the eyes of multiple entities and you will not believe how closely we are watched. The Admin has a policy of representing a balanced view point which increases the value of this forum and gives these entities a perspective into the thought process of the educated middle class youth/ middle aged populace which accounts for a small but significant minority of this wretched nation.
So something gets said which is a perspective and I dare say a legitimate perspective on an event. It might not be the only perspective and it certainly is not the sanitized version. NOW INSTEAD OF LETTING THINGS BE PEOPLE ENTER INTO THIS OFF TOPIC DEBATE !!!!WHY.???.Leave it be and let it rest.
ALL of you have a responsibility to addhere to the policies of this board. You need to think twice about the implications of what you are saying and project a balanced and well thought out view point. This is what I alluded to rather sternly in my response to the poster. He still did not get the underlying meaning/intention and responded and I let it rest. Please do not enter into off topic debates.
Mods please allow the irrelevant posts to stand for at least 6 hours so everyone can reread and understand what I have read and please delete all the off topic posts including mine.
Regards
A

IRST will be plug and play since the concept makes it simpler for earlier blocks to have similar capabilities

I cant remember whether the Aselsan Aselpod has an integrated IRST or not. I suspect they may decide to have it on a hardpoint as a POD rather than integrated.
A

 

[volatile]

I cant remember whether the Aselsan Aselpod has an integrated IRST or not. I suspect they may decide to have it on a hardpoint as a POD rather than integrated.

IMO IRST solution will come from chinese and it will be packaged with AESA ,ASELAN Pods are good but different concepts and mainly used for A2G although some claims were made by F15 LANTARN operators that they were able to use it in A2A mode as well but i still believe that IRST are more A2A ,Kindly correct me if im wrong here i strongly feels that the solution requires lots of technical integration and who so ever will offer will be TOT and integration considering JF17 CHinese DNA will be Chinese ,

http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap.../air-platforms/aselpod-advanced-targeting-pod

 

[CombatSurgeon]

Well, as I can see most members here are talking about fancy gadgets like AESA, IRSTS and EW systems in the Thunder whereas one must remember that it is still not carrying a Pressure Breathing System and its pilots wear no full coverage anti-G suits, both items a requisite for modern combat jets and not under any technology restriction. Whether PAF leadership has deliberately left out these things is questionable because PBS was omitted at the design stage.
As a matter of fact, PBS was removed from PAF Vipers ordered in 80s on user's own request!

 

[Tempest II]

IMO IRST solution will come from chinese and it will be packaged with AESA ,ASELAN Pods are good but different concepts and mainly used for A2G although some claims were made by F15 LANTARN operators that they were able to use it in A2A mode as well but i still believe that IRST are more A2A ,Kindly correct me if im wrong here i strongly feels that the solution requires lots of technical integration and who so ever will offer will be TOT and integration considering JF17 CHinese DNA will be Chinese ,

http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/cap.../air-platforms/aselpod-advanced-targeting-pod

The aselsan link you provided says, "Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground Modes". It also says, "High Resolution, 3rd generation FLIR"

IRST is a generalized case of forward looking infrared (FLIR)

In fact here

the Aselpod if tracking an aircraft

 

[volatile]

I never disagree fully with the statment and infact F15 pilots using Lantern system has successfully used a2a mode
,real question remains the sniper pod/Or any other pod always advertises A2G role probably it has to do with ground target locations being easier i guess some one in top can clear that IRST and SNIPER/ASELAN or any other pods function in real terms since the facts are that US is developing IRST system for F15/F16 and experimental studies have done

The aselsan link you provided says, "Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground Modes". It also says, "High Resolution, 3rd generation FLIR"

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I am surprised no one has written how PAF fckd up on the IRST issue---.

During design time---they analysed that IRST was not important---was not worth it to be installed permanently on the aircraft---so they decided against it---.

The stupidities of the PAF are on a monumental scale---.

Now they find out---that the JF17 does not have enough space to install a dedicated IRST like in the J10's etc etc etc---.

 

[Tempest II]

How much smaller is the JF nose area vs the Gripen ?

I think it they really wanted an irst they could drastically redesigned the front section. They have made a few changes in the B version and they could have added space for IRST.

Consider the change in radome size between the Cheetahs/Kfirs vs the Mirages.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Hi,

I am surprised no one has written how PAF fckd up on the IRST issue---.

During design time---they analysed that IRST was not important---was not worth it to be installed permanently on the aircraft---so they decided against it---.

The stupidities of the PAF are on a monumental scale---.

Now they find out---that the JF17 does not have enough space to install a dedicated IRST like in the J10's etc etc etc---.

Weight of most systems in around 50 kg,e.g PIRATE IRST.

 

[volatile]

Real issue will be installation on 100 examples already produced since it is quite evident that current design both A,B might have issues on fixed in this regard i saw news couple of months back if not years that Chin/ Intake mounted points will be used and frankly it make sense but to do such thing the 100 examples have to undergo some sort of modifications other wise the hardpoints will be used probaby in dual rack configurations

probably one idea which is put into operations

J10

 

[araz]

Real issue will be installation on 100 examples already produced since it is quite evident that current design both A,B might have issues on fixed in this regard i saw news couple of months back if not years that Chin/ Intake mounted points will be used and frankly it make sense but to do such thing the 100 examples have to undergo some sort of modifications other wise the hardpoints will be used probaby in dual rack configurations

probably one idea which is put into operations

J10

The real question is do we need to upgraxe all existing planes to block 3 standard?. There is mention of aerodynamic consequences needing to be sorted out and balancing issues so why do we need to do so for earlier blocks?
I think the philosophy of not changing blocks was borne out in the 16s as the Cand D variants were different and therefore Aand Bs were not upgraded. I suspect PAF will upgrade what it can but not fully as the changes and lay offs would affect fleet service.
A

 

[volatile]

The real question is do we need to upgraxe all existing planes to block 3 standard?. There is mention of aerodynamic consequences needing to be sorted out and balancing issues so why do we need to do so for earlier blocks?
I think the philosophy of not changing blocks was borne out in the 16s as the Cand D variants were different and therefore Aand Bs were not upgraded. I suspect PAF will upgrade what it can but not fully as the changes and lay offs would affect fleet service.
A

i think US can live with that option since F16 were produced and procured over 4500 so wide range of customer and needs were there in case of JF17 it will be handful around 150 or max 200 (unlikely) so i better have 150 or so examples with intrapolarity and similar capabilities then 50 basic , 50 moderate , 50 advance this makes very complicated for a force i hope my view point is understood ,Im worried for 100 examples but even F16 15 block carries more or less goodies then block 52 other than engine/CFT and some minor modifications , The genius of LM is introducing SABR kit for F16 with plug n play and bolt to bolt

So some thing on these lines should be done for all examples

 

[araz]

i think US can live with that option since F16 were produced and procured over 4500 so wide range of customer and needs were there in case of JF17 it will be handful around 150 or max 200 (unlikely) so i better have 150 or so examples with intrapolarity and similar capabilities then 50 basic , 50 moderate , 50 advance this makes very complicated for a force i hope my view point is understood ,Im worried for 100 examples but even F16 15 block carries more or less goodies then block 52 other than engine/CFT and some minor modifications , The genius of LM is introducing SABR kit for F16 with plug n play and bolt to bolt

View attachment 445740

So some thing on these lines should be done for all examples

I clearly understood your drift and responded accordingly. You and I are not diferring but perhaps I have not explained myself adequately. There was a Chinese article on block 3 posted 2-3 days ago detailing the changes made to accomodate ghe block 3 requirements. Some of those required a fair bit of tinkering and redesigning and playing around with the structure. Those were the changes I thought might be better off avoided. Anything that can be upgraded without taking the planes apart and xesigning interim fixes like avionics and EW suites should be done. All block 1s can be upgraded to block 2s. If you now want upgrade to block 3s that might become cost prohibitive and one can argue unnecessary. For instance no action in modern day war will be one on one but a multiplane engagement. Do you then need all platforms to have all the bells and whistles or a few platforms to lead the rest with AESA Radars and guiding the weapons delivery of the front ACs who have their radar on silence.
In PAF a compromise will always have to be made as we remain for the forseeable future cash strapped. Preparation for war is totally necessary for being prepared has its own safety net, but bankrupting one self in the process of doing so is not wise. For instance I think PAF paid 700million for 50 planes. Now I dont see a SABR type radar being less than 5-7 million per piece. Add to that the other upgrades for the 100 planes you want upgraded you could easily exceed a billion. So the question again is does one upgrade or buy another 50 planes adding 1-200 millions to the upgrade cost. This is what should be seriously considered and game plans devised for effective utilization rather than possibly senseless upgrades.
I would love to hear your response as I think we have a good debate ongoing.
A

 

[CombatSurgeon]

The aselsan link you provided says, "Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground Modes". It also says, "High Resolution, 3rd generation FLIR"

IRST is a generalized case of forward looking infrared (FLIR)

In fact here

the Aselpod if tracking an aircraft

The aselsan link you provided says, "Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground Modes". It also says, "High Resolution, 3rd generation FLIR"

IRST is a generalized case of forward looking infrared (FLIR)

In fact here

the Aselpod if tracking an aircraft

Systems like SNIPER and ASELPOD are based on mid-IR optics, optimized for air-to-ground and limited air-to-air stuff as mid-IR detects engines in afterburners only. Long-IR in contrast works both for afterburn phase as well metal body glow/friction heat. So long-IR is the material for advanced IRSTS aboard modern Western jets. Russian and Chinese are not there so far . In my opinion, going for a mid-IR sensor is no-no and if PAF has decided against it for JF-17 Block3, it's a wise decision.!

 

[volatile]

I clearly understood your drift and responded accordingly. You and I are not diferring but perhaps I have not explained myself adequately. There was a Chinese article on block 3 posted 2-3 days ago detailing the changes made to accomodate ghe block 3 requirements. Some of those required a fair bit of tinkering and redesigning and playing around with the structure. Those were the changes I thought might be better off avoided. Anything that can be upgraded without taking the planes apart and xesigning interim fixes like avionics and EW suites should be done. All block 1s can be upgraded to block 2s. If you now want upgrade to block 3s that might become cost prohibitive and one can argue unnecessary. For instance no action in modern day war will be one on one but a multiplane engagement. Do you then need all platforms to have all the bells and whistles or a few platforms to lead the rest with AESA Radars and guiding the weapons delivery of the front ACs who have their radar on silence.
In PAF a compromise will always have to be made as we remain for the forseeable future cash strapped. Preparation for war is totally necessary for being prepared has its own safety net, but bankrupting one self in the process of doing so is not wise. For instance I think PAF paid 700million for 50 planes. Now I dont see a SABR type radar being less than 5-7 million per piece. Add to that the other upgrades for the 100 planes you want upgraded you could easily exceed a billion. So the question again is does one upgrade or buy another 50 planes adding 1-200 millions to the upgrade cost. This is what should be seriously considered and game plans devised for effective utilization rather than possibly senseless upgrades.
I would love to hear your response as I think we have a good debate ongoing.
A

My view points are based on historical facts about PAF i.e second to none and quality over quantity lets freeze the discussion here and step forward what we called as need analysis . What we have Internal capabilities ,what our enemy have .

- F16 Mediocre but highly sanction prone (Not Reliable) Its a long debate and i guess at the end of the day my assessment is based on historical facts and US behaviour .
- JF17 (50 BLK1 upgraded to BLK2) Good job being done so considering availability rate I guess should be around 50-60 % Correct me here please if im wrong
- JF17 (50 BLK3) Same applies so at any given time the availability of thunders will be less than 100 with only 30 plus capable to take on any thing IAF throw at them ,
- AWACS/ERIE both parties have so im cancelling the effect on it .
- IAF doctrine is developing into fast Stand off weaponry

Considering these scenarios and numbers of available fighters will be more for IAF specially even 40-50 % rate of Flanker it will be tough sell i.e more than PAF all inventory .Now I believe that cost will be high for upgradation to blk3 may be 10 Mil but do remmember we paid dearly for F16 upgrade as well that was near to 1.6 Bil $ for 40 examples similarly IAF recent upgradation of Mirages are costing more then the original buy . Even spending 10 Mil per plane will be 1 Billion $ over a span of 2-3 years will be worth it as it eliminates the need for 3rd platform till 2025 ,My assumptions are that JF17 blk 3 should replace F16 AM/BM at least by 2025 . So two area where PAF can make things happen for them is Availability of thunder plus all with latest cutting edge remmember Rafale is on the knocking door so 36 with 60 -70 % availability is good enough number since Blk2 capabilities are more or less same as Mirage 2009 latest and Rafale signs off 3:1 ratio. Again my emphasis will be developing all thunders to almost same level and spending 1 Billion $ is worth it also do remmember there is an export requirement as well ,you tend to make more money when you offer solutions to your customers all customers and examples are blk2 and to keep it flying worthy till 2035/40 AESA is must .

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

I am surprised no one has written how PAF fckd up on the IRST issue---.

During design time---they analysed that IRST was not important---was not worth it to be installed permanently on the aircraft---so they decided against it---.

The stupidities of the PAF are on a monumental scale---.

Now they find out---that the JF17 does not have enough space to install a dedicated IRST like in the J10's etc etc etc---.

i am pretty much sure IRST can be fitted if they think its worth it or if they can afford it
smaller planes have it or they can make space for it