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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

F22 and F35 are high IR emitters. At medium range (in the 40 to 50km max range) they can be IR detected.
Probably so, however if an F-22 / F-35 jockey let's themselves get in that situation and does survive then will likely have flown their last mission / flight.

PS: In real combat that is.
 
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Hi, what do you think about the F-16XL like modification upgrade ? Have you guys read about the F-16XL ? Do you think it is a good idea to go down that line of development ? I think it would do wonders for the JFT. Your input is awaited with optimism....
All this cost $, at the end PAF has to decide as to how well it can spread the butter across it needs and if the ROI would be worth it. As Araz wrote above, we may not see any further external modifications after Block-3 ( PS: not saying that Block III has external mods or not, ) but there likely be new electronics / avionics upgrades to keep JF-17 relevant for the foreseeable future.

2035+ is long way to go to see AZM related Next Gen, JF-17 will have to be upgraded periodically to be keept relevant. PAC may have to churn out JF-17s till late 2020s.
 
@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD
The US is pressuring arg to drop the jf-17 buy and instead buy used block 50s lol.

they’re sending a team to evaluate the jf17 soon, but I’d probably lower your expectations lol, who would have guessed.
1. That's kind of flattering that JF17 is worth doing that for :)
2. If PAF had the choice they'd go for the f16s no?lol
3. The only viable strategy is lowballing the f16 offer by a lot.
 
1. That's kind of flattering that JF17 is worth doing that for :)
2. If PAF had the choice they'd go for the f16s no?lol
3. The only viable strategy is lowballing the f16 offer by a lot.

Used block 50’s are reeeeally competitive, iirc the sales have been for sub 30 million a unit, that’s being generous, I’ve seen some at 15m a pop. What makes it worse is the market is flooded now with euros switching to 35’s, so we’re screwed now wrt to the Argentinians 🤣
 
@Quwa @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD
The US is pressuring arg to drop the jf-17 buy and instead buy used block 50s lol.

they’re sending a team to evaluate the jf17 soon, but I’d probably lower your expectations lol, who would have guessed.
This is what the game is about. When the PAF was looking at Gripen a lockmart official came out with" we have never lost a sale to another competitor". Whereas that may not always be true you can understand where and to what extent they will go. I think we should continue to keep trying but it is not over till the planes land on the relevant air base.
A
 
1. That's kind of flattering that JF17 is worth doing that for :)
2. If PAF had the choice they'd go for the f16s no?lol
3. The only viable strategy is lowballing the f16 offer by a lot.
Used block 50’s are reeeeally competitive, iirc the sales have been for sub 30 million a unit, that’s being generous, I’ve seen some at 15m a pop. What makes it worse is the market is flooded now with euros switching to 35’s, so we’re screwed now wrt to the Argentinians 🤣
It's all fair game, but a lot will depend on the Argentinian Air Force's requirements. If they're still serious about adding an AESA radar and new LRAAMs, they'll need to pay for upgrades on the F-16. Those kits will add to the $30-odd million US for each F-16 -- potentially $70-80+ per aircraft all-in. But if they don't care, and just need some newer planes to replace old ones, the F-16s will likely win.
 
Bhai.
Baat caroron ki aur dukan pakoron ki. We dont have the know how, manpower money for R&D or the will to create and XL version of the JFT. The XL design was the culmination of 22 different iterations of the wings and modifications. We have the world moving towards a fifth generation fighter and you want us to throw money into a fancy design of another 4th generation fighter which will probably end up being a samosa like our neighbours next door. Let us savour what we have. The enemy of good is better.
A
Well you popped that bubble... 🤣.
Pakistan would still need to modify the Jeffs to keep them updated to modern standards... 2035 is a long way and God knows what the situation of our economy would be and how many 5th gens we could afford.
Deltas aren't a bad design though... Let's not let one bad samosa make us squeamish for all...
Possibility of off the shelf 5th gens before Azm hits the tarmac ?
 
It's all fair game, but a lot will depend on the Argentinian Air Force's requirements. If they're still serious about adding an AESA radar and new LRAAMs, they'll need to pay for upgrades on the F-16. Those kits will add to the $30-odd million US for each F-16 -- potentially $70-80+ per aircraft all-in. But if they don't care, and just need some newer planes to replace old ones, the F-16s will likely win.

70-80 all in really isn’t bad considering the Nigerians paid 55 each. That’s actually quite a compelling offer, it’ll likely be cheaper depending on where they source the airframes from too.

slightly jealous.

I’m sure if the paf was serious, we could pick up some of those used airframes from the Europeans, they’re in good condition and have little hours on them,
 
Well you popped that bubble... 🤣.
Pakistan would still need to modify the Jeffs to keep them updated to modern standards... 2035 is a long way and God knows what the situation of our economy would be and how many 5th gens we could afford.
Deltas aren't a bad design though... Let's not let one bad samosa make us squeamish for all...
Possibility of off the shelf 5th gens before Azm hits the tarmac ?
DELTA is its own limitations its built for high altitudes less maneuverability unless its will have canards or TVC ànd built for speed @Iron Shrappenel
 
JF is our bird. we will keep it up to the mark to cater to our needs well. So modifications will be a continual process to keep on an edge over our arch rival. These changes will mainly be software refinement and configuring new weaponery. The best addition will be AI-based enhancements.
 
I have 3 to 4 different looking/types stealth concept designs for JF-17 thunder with me.
@JamD correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t it easier to develop a platform from the ground up for VLO as opposed to adapting it for the same?

like, you’re not even going to get nearly similar performance once accounting for stores? I’ve always been skeptical of dipping things in RAM and calling it a day without making some significant changes to the airframe, especially when in the jf-17’s case, the aircraft is primarily Aluminium?

surely it’s easier to design an airframe optimised for stealth from the ground up?
 
@JamD correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t it easier to develop a platform from the ground up for VLO as opposed to adapting it for the same?

like, you’re not even going to get nearly similar performance once accounting for stores? I’ve always been skeptical of dipping things in RAM and calling it a day without making some significant changes to the airframe, especially when in the jf-17’s case, the aircraft is primarily Aluminium?

surely it’s easier to design an airframe optimised for stealth from the ground up?
Based on my understanding, yes. The reason is optimization. Aircraft are optimized to a high degree so changing a thing here and a thing here can sometimes have unexpectedly drastic consequences. For example, moving the engine 10 cm up vertically in the airframe might make the RCS 10 times smaller (totally made up example to make a point) but doing that is next to impossible for an existing jet. Furthermore, composites and metals interact in complicated ways so that must be taken into account.

That being said, you can make small changes to reduce the RCS of an existing aircraft, but the benefit will probably be quite limited. In my opinion RAM are the only viable option for reducing the RCS of an existing design, assuming that you can develop a RAM that doesn't peel off every 10 hours or something and doesn't do other bad things like that.
 
Hi, what do you think about the F-16XL like modification upgrade ? Have you guys read about the F-16XL ? Do you think it is a good idea to go down that line of development ? I think it would do wonders for the JFT. Your input is awaited with optimism....

Let's take this conversation to New Fighter for PAF doctrine thread.
 

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