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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Stop the BS---. You are totally clueless---. Just holding onto to something 60 years old and with no substance---.

Kindly have some respect for the opposing opinion at-least. I keep insisting about my ideas wouldn't make it better at all. Beside the strafing or any out of blue chance to close-in on 6 and take down an adversary; you never know the psych affect of having a knife.
 
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Kindly have some respect for the opposing opinion at-least. I keep insisting about my ideas wouldn't make it better at all. Beside the strafing or any out of blue chance to close-in on 6 and take down an adversary; you never know the psych affect of having a knife.
It gives you a sense of security.
 
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what about its use for warning shots and CAS...most of interceptors will need this..

what jf17 needs is CFTs and better engine(93ma) so it can use the other 2 hard points for SD10s rather than fuel

In case of interception and warning shots needing to be fired, one could use a podded gun for it, for the rare peacetime occasions this is needed.
 
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Kindly have some respect for the opposing opinion at-least. I keep insisting about my ideas wouldn't make it better at all. Beside the strafing or any out of blue chance to close-in on 6 and take down an adversary; you never know the psych affect of having a knife.

Hi,

I have great respect for posters---but those who have no input---???

They give a 60 years old example but have no numbers to prove if gun kills went up---they have no proof and posted no proof---.

The straffing runs made in AFG by an F15 were in a 'sanitized' arena---ie---the taliban did not have anything to shoot back---no SA missile---no anti aircraft guns with radars---.

The Law of averages of a modern fighter being in a position to get behind another enemy aircraft is very very low---.

Getting into that 6 position makes you and your aircraft extremely vulnerable---. You have target fixation and you cannot see or hear nothing momentarily---.

So---when the missile lock warning lights up---the warning that tell you that your aircraft is a target by the enemy from 50-60 miles away---you are so engrossed into getting behind the enemy---that you would never know when you died of the missile impact on your aircraft---just like most Iraqi pilots who got hit by the Phoenix missiles did not know when their end came---.

Nowadays enemy aircraft can see you from 80-150 Km---one of them sees you chasing one of their injured colleagues---they will come to the rescue and launch one at you from miles away---.

Maybe you should ask the poster to give examples creating scenarios how the cannon would be used---.

This is a war forum---best answer is create a scenario and not WHQAT YOUR GRAND FATHER TOLD YOU---.

So---instead of jumping on me---tell him---create a scenario and a condition---and if you want to jump in---please do---create a scene---and explain how it would work---and not a one liner---.

You just keep going on about removing the cannon. Frankly that's a waste of time and I am willing to argue that. Have you not heard about repeating the mistakes of the past?


Hi,

You keep talking---and yet have not put a single scenario validating your point---. You jump back to 60 years ago---there is still no proof that the F4 shot down more aircraft with cannon---nothing to substantiate that---.

I have otoh posted videos and other information that the cannon is out---
 
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So---instead of jumping on me---tell him---create a scenario and a condition---and if you want to jump in---please do---create a scene---and explain how it would work---and not a one liner---.

If I had to jump, you would have felt despite your illogical takes on the PAF as well as this Gun thing. Let me assure you that I don't want to create history merely of jumping on someone. You have learnt a lot of books and there are guys that burn their bottoms in the hot seat for hours per day.

I only meant to say that respect the opinion and their is no barring for disagreement. Keep it civil and avoid name callings or taking jibes at others or even taking a dig on personal level. This is all what means worthy for discussion or even create a scenario.

Getting on Six means where an AC has the chance to have a gun lock on adversary and it doesn't mean to be flying straight on the six of front AC while being totally clueless of situation or getting hit by BVR coming in from unknown side.

Staffing still has value as you are quoting Taliban with no SA Missile/Equipment. No one knows when the need arrives. In the military, being 100% sure means there is a possible shocker waiting for you at the point of face-off hence, never go in being so sure which may turn out to be unpleasant and nothing could be done except of pity. As I said, having a dagger still has sense of security despite having an AK with & a GLock in holster.

The scenario can still arrive as none is sure and above all, it still gives a sense of security to the jokey knowing that he has a dagger in-case if it comes to knife fight. A psychological scenario holds the same worth to have the gun on AC as similar to its use as the last resort. There is a scenario that both runs out of Missiles by any mean. 4 V/s 4 ship got into BVR..not everyone takes the first hit or not everyone can dodge the first one (pilot skills) and then, in short, time comes when one from each side comes face to face and there is nothing on the wing to throw nor has the time to return safely. Will you prefer your back being sliced with many knife cuts because you didn't have one on that time to try it out? and how about your adversary does know that after all missiles, you have nothing to fight and he has 500 rounds to make you look like a fishing net?

The planner does know very well and is aware that there can be added an extra pylon for POD but there are calculations in work whether two under chin pylons can be added at once or not? whether gun be compromised for under chin BVR mounting only? what if there are limitations at the moment where both intakes can't be installed with two BVR mountings? what if only single under chin mounting is available and the guy who has to risk his life will have to chose otherwise? how do you adjust aerodynamics in regard to center line pylon of BVR along with 2 on each side under intakes? how much a fuel cell will carry in regard replacing cannon as compare to fuel tank on center line having only 2 BVRs? will please enlighten us the complexity of a pylon to hold BVR as compare to under intake gun mounting? is it like that easy as an android to command my AC to look after weapon sequence to shoot in-case of 5 BVRs and also treat extra 2 BVRs pylons under both intakes on each side? is that easy to edit software & update command & control computer like this?

You are asking about something which may or may not affect the battle scenario and I am merely looking at root level whether it can be done in the first place or not and then I will compromise in lieu of energy, time & cost. There are always limits to arm one to the teeth like this and that is the natural course of mathematics/ calculations/system/aerodynamics etc so before breaking those boundaries, I must check onto every existing possibility from every angle including the battle scenario to avoid loss of time, energy & money.

I am asking these questions so that in-case of anything worth of a value than existing setup being unknown for PAF leadership/Thunder designers comes up; I am pretty sure the message will reach by any means and it will be a win win for all of us. You reveals/suggests/invent something of more & greater value than what the designers have done so far and that will help in many ways to strengthen a strategic weapon of our own.

Before calling others traitors, stupids, idiots, BShers, treachery practices, clueless uniform walas etc etc; let's just realize that there are other genius minds and does know the difference between wish & theory as compare to reality & limitations. You want to push for more & make the bird more stronger & able enough but on the same time, your good intend becomes worthless when you start to disrespect the opposing opinion and provokes others to reply in kind and then, demoralize them further.
 
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If I had to jump, you would have felt despite your illogical takes on the PAF as well as this Gun thing. Let me assure you that I don't want to create history merely of jumping on someone. You have learnt a lot of books and there are guys that burn their bottoms in the hot seat for hours per day.

I only meant to say that respect the opinion and their is no barring for disagreement. Keep it civil and avoid name callings or taking jibes at others or even taking a dig on personal level. This is all what means worthy for discussion or even create a scenario.

Getting on Six means where an AC has the chance to have a gun lock on adversary and it doesn't mean to be flying straight on the six of front AC while being totally clueless of situation or getting hit by BVR coming in from unknown side.

Staffing still has value as you are quoting Taliban with no SA Missile/Equipment. No one knows when the need arrives. In the military, being 100% sure means there is a possible shocker waiting for you at the point of face-off hence, never go in being so sure which may turn out to be unpleasant and nothing could be done except of pity. As I said, having a dagger still has sense of security despite having an AK with & a GLock in holster.

The scenario can still arrive as none is sure and above all, it still gives a sense of security to the jokey knowing that he has a dagger in-case if it comes to knife fight. A psychological scenario holds the same worth to have the gun on AC as similar to its use as the last resort. There is a scenario that both runs out of Missiles by any mean. 4 V/s 4 ship got into BVR..not everyone takes the first hit or not everyone can dodge the first one (pilot skills) and then, in short, time comes when one from each side comes face to face and there is nothing on the wing to throw nor has the time to return safely. Will you prefer your back being sliced with many knife cuts because you didn't have one on that time to try it out? and how about your adversary does know that after all missiles, you have nothing to fight and he has 500 rounds to make you look like a fishing net?

The planner does know very well and is aware that there can be added an extra pylon for POD but there are calculations in work whether two under chin pylons can be added at once or not? whether gun be compromised for under chin BVR mounting only? what if there are limitations at the moment where both intakes can't be installed with two BVR mountings? what if only single under chin mounting is available and the guy who has to risk his life will have to chose otherwise? how do you adjust aerodynamics in regard to center line pylon of BVR along with 2 on each side under intakes? how much a fuel cell will carry in regard replacing cannon as compare to fuel tank on center line having only 2 BVRs? will please enlighten us the complexity of a pylon to hold BVR as compare to under intake gun mounting? is it like that easy as an android to command my AC to look after weapon sequence to shoot in-case of 5 BVRs and also treat extra 2 BVRs pylons under both intakes on each side? is that easy to edit software & update command & control computer like this?

You are asking about something which may or may not affect the battle scenario and I am merely looking at root level whether it can be done in the first place or not and then I will compromise in lieu of energy, time & cost. There are always limits to arm one to the teeth like this and that is the natural course of mathematics/ calculations/system/aerodynamics etc so before breaking those boundaries, I must check onto every existing possibility from every angle including the battle scenario to avoid loss of time, energy & money.

I am asking these questions so that in-case of anything worth of a value than existing setup being unknown for PAF leadership/Thunder designers comes up; I am pretty sure the message will reach by any means and it will be a win win for all of us. You reveals/suggests/invent something of more & greater value than what the designers have done so far and that will help in many ways to strengthen a strategic weapon of our own.

Before calling others traitors, stupids, idiots, BShers, treachery practices, clueless uniform walas etc etc; let's just realize that there are other genius minds and does know the difference between wish & theory as compare to reality & limitations. You want to push for more & make the bird more stronger & able enough but on the same time, your good intend becomes worthless when you start to disrespect the opposing opinion and provokes others to reply in kind and then, demoralize them further.


Hi,

You are still not listening---. There is not you "two" left in the world---. There is a plethora of enemies around maybe 50---60---70 miles away.

Getting on six means that you are entirely focused on getting behind the enemy and you have used all your resources and energies to get behind the enemy---and while doing so have made yourself a target as well---.

From your post and posts of others---I can guarantee that none of you guys have ever had a target lock or a target affixiation---I have been thru it and i can tell you with a guarantee---you hear nothing---and you see nothing else other than maybe 20 degrees maybe 30 degrees in front of you---. All your peripheral vision is gone---all you listening capabilities are gone---you only see the 'fish' in front of you.

Now---you want a cannon for a dedicated ground strike aircraft---okay---that is understandable---no denying that---. But to put one on a air superiority fighter---is a wastage of space and load---.
 
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Hi,

You keep talking---and yet have not put a single scenario validating your point---. You jump back to 60 years ago---there is still no proof that the F4 shot down more aircraft with cannon---nothing to substantiate that---.

I have otoh posted videos and other information that the cannon is out---

I will as stated set them all down when I get time. Some of us have slightly more serious jobs than others.

I well aware of your level of knowledge so I suggest you wind your neck in. You are not some technical messiah with some special knowledge. and if I jump back to 60 years the idea you are regurgitating is older 1950's concepts.

Funny how EVERY manufacturer of 5 gen aircraft has included a gun but MASTANKHAN has the inside line to the future everyone!!!!
 
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I will as stated set them all down when I get time. Some of us have slightly more serious jobs than others.

I well aware of your level of knowledge so I suggest you wind your neck in. You are not some technical messiah with some special knowledge. and if I jump back to 60 years the idea you are regurgitating is older 1950's concepts.

Funny how EVERY manufacturer of 5 gen aircraft has included a gun but MASTANKHAN has the inside line to the future everyone!!!!

Hi,

Only 3 aircraft of 5th gen are around---F35 / F22 / J20---.

J20 does not have a cannon---.
 
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kuch ny anhi hai ab to aysa lagta hai jesy gher ka koi banda :lol: aya salam dua ki or apny kam main lag gay :D ager kuch nya ho to banda ghor se dekhy na :P
Yes
We are usetoo of latest f16's of PAF.
USE new eyes
Sorry sir just a refresh.
 
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Hi,

You are still not listening---. There is not you "two" left in the world---. There is a plethora of enemies around maybe 50---60---70 miles away.

Getting on six means that you are entirely focused on getting behind the enemy and you have used all your resources and energies to get behind the enemy---and while doing so have made yourself a target as well---.

From your post and posts of others---I can guarantee that none of you guys have ever had a target lock or a target affixiation---I have been thru it and i can tell you with a guarantee---you hear nothing---and you see nothing else other than maybe 20 degrees maybe 30 degrees in front of you---. All your peripheral vision is gone---all you listening capabilities are gone---you only see the 'fish' in front of you.

Now---you want a cannon for a dedicated ground strike aircraft---okay---that is understandable---no denying that---. But to put one on a air superiority fighter---is a wastage of space and load---.

Then there are other means to deal with plethora of enemies. JF-17 Thunder Block-II is not the solution for every hostility in the world. Not even any of modern day platform does have such capability to deal with every threat. As said, the cannon fight is when it comes to the worst. Either you get sliced your back having no knife or you put some fight & one who knows how to fight will be flying alive out of the ring. Nobody says that we have cannon because we must get on six of enemy.

You are not reading but taking everything in isolated manner having your own priority of changes into an Aircraft. Thunder is not for Air Superiority at the moment and PAF does work for superiority with a mix of own arrangements/equipment/strategies & plans. On 27th Feb, Thunder Block-II went in with the same cannon knowing that the time may come to prove its muscles and still, by the grace of ALLAH, we fly without any scratch while making them to surrender.

Why Thunder went into the fight having current number of BVR & did not remove Cannon? Do you know couple of them were flying with IFR in ship formation but not all of Thunders? it was done as per the plan, strategy & threat assessment. I will repeat myself that cannon in-fact is not that much necessary as compare to BVR/WVR but still, does hold its importance and has a psych influence in regard to sense to feel safe having an extra punch when push comes to shove.

What I want on an Aircraft or I wish so & so should have been there, is my personal opinion or analysis but it doesn't mean that I am the one who stand correct and do know all. No... it doesn't work like that. I share my idea/assessment/findings and you do so from your side and then the results into something far more beneficial. During the same course of ideas exchange, anyone who tries to enforce his/her theory by way of provocation or downplaying others idea; does not deserves much of attention as the same attitude results the loss of interest.
 
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Hi,

Only 3 aircraft of 5th gen are around---F35 / F22 / J20---.

J20 does not have a cannon---.

You fail to see the purpose/use of these 5th gen jets in the scenario in which they are or we intended to be used.

Same goes for the fc-1 look at the role and the combat environment it will and is planned to be used.
Look at the capabilities of both india and pakistan look at the potential combat environment and the equipment/infrastructure of both countries .
You will find your answer there.
 
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You fail to see the purpose/use of these 5th gen jets in the scenario in which they are or we intended to be used.

Same goes for the fc-1 look at the role and the combat environment it will and is planned to be used.
Look at the capabilities of both india and pakistan look at the potential combat environment and the equipment/infrastructure of both countries .
You will find your answer there.

W-- do you think I have been doing all this time writing here for 15 years here and before at other places---if not looking at the issues---.

You write a two liner with nothing in it---" you will find the answer there "---means you have NO CLUE what to say and what to write and yet you want to come on swinging---.

Then there are other means to deal with plethora of enemies. JF-17 Thunder Block-II is not the solution for every hostility in the world. Not even any of modern day platform does have such capability to deal with every threat. As said, the cannon fight is when it comes to the worst. Either you get sliced your back having no knife or you put some fight & one who knows how to fight will be flying alive out of the ring. Nobody says that we have cannon because we must get on six of enemy.

You are not reading but taking everything in isolated manner having your own priority of changes into an Aircraft. Thunder is not for Air Superiority at the moment and PAF does work for superiority with a mix of own arrangements/equipment/strategies & plans. On 27th Feb, Thunder Block-II went in with the same cannon knowing that the time may come to prove its muscles and still, by the grace of ALLAH, we fly without any scratch while making them to surrender.

Why Thunder went into the fight having current number of BVR & did not remove Cannon? Do you know couple of them were flying with IFR in ship formation but not all of Thunders? it was done as per the plan, strategy & threat assessment. I will repeat myself that cannon in-fact is not that much necessary as compare to BVR/WVR but still, does hold its importance and has a psych influence in regard to sense to feel safe having an extra punch when push comes to shove.

What I want on an Aircraft or I wish so & so should have been there, is my personal opinion or analysis but it doesn't mean that I am the one who stand correct and do know all. No... it doesn't work like that. I share my idea/assessment/findings and you do so from your side and then the results into something far more beneficial. During the same course of ideas exchange, anyone who tries to enforce his/her theory by way of provocation or downplaying others idea; does not deserves much of attention as the same attitude results the loss of interest.

Hi,

You need to have a direction in your post---.

This is not Grade School talk---oh this is my idea so I stand by it---you have to substantiate you stance---.

The cannon does not hold an extra punch---it is a death sentence to the pilot---a loss of extremely valuable life and and expensive piece of machinery---the two extra BVR or WVR missiles will hold the extra punch.

Cannon gives a false sense of security and there is no place for a 'knife fight' in modern day air warfare---there is no place for inflated egos in modern day air battles---.

I think that you still don't know that in order to get behind someone's six and shoot them out of the sky---you will have to position yourself around 500 yards behind that aircraft---which means than when you make the kill---you are also flying thru the debris of the kill---thus making your aircraft vulnerable to failure---. But before you make that kill---your IFF will identify you as an enemy aircraft to another enemy aircraft some 50 miles away who will take you out with a BVR shot---or an LR enemy SAM would do that as well.

Some modern air to air missiles have also been converted to do air to surface strikes---. It is better to have these types of missiles---.

Modern air combat is all about the percentage of survival in a meeting---. That is why most of the emphasis is on BVR combat---shoot & scoot---. WVR is no less important but not preferred---the percentage of survival gets lower---.

The purpose of air combat is to win---if you cannot win---then it is better to escape the arena and save yourself and the aircraft to fight in the next sortie---.

The days of suicidal air combat are gone---.
 
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W-- do you think I have been doing all this time writing here for 15 years here and before at other places---if not looking at the issues---.

You write a two liner with nothing in it---" you will find the answer there "---means you have NO CLUE what to say and what to write and yet you want to come on swinging---.



Hi,

You need to have a direction in your post---.

This is not Grade School talk---oh this is my idea so I stand by it---you have to substantiate you stance---.

The cannon does not hold an extra punch---it is a death sentence to the pilot---a loss of extremely valuable life and and expensive piece of machinery---the two extra BVR or WVR missiles will hold the extra punch.

Cannon gives a false sense of security and there is no place for a 'knife fight' in modern day air warfare---there is no place for inflated egos in modern day air battles---.

I think that you still don't know that in order to get behind someone's six and shoot them out of the sky---you will have to position yourself around 500 yards behind that aircraft---which means than when you make the kill---you are also flying thru the debris of the kill---thus making your aircraft vulnerable to failure---. But before you make that kill---your IFF will identify you as an enemy aircraft to another enemy aircraft some 50 miles away who will take you out with a BVR shot---or an LR enemy SAM would do that as well.

Some modern air to air missiles have also been converted to do air to surface strikes---. It is better to have these types of missiles---.

Modern air combat is all about the percentage of survival in a meeting---. That is why most of the emphasis is on BVR combat---shoot & scoot---. WVR is no less important but not preferred---the percentage of survival gets lower---.

The purpose of air combat is to win---if you cannot win---then it is better to escape the arena and save yourself and the aircraft to fight in the next sortie---.

The days of suicidal air combat are gone---.

See the issue remains as it is. This is not about your idea for removing the cannon at all. This is all about to be respectful to others, don't take jibes or even provoke others to the point to reply them in kind or misbehaving. Respect the opinion, agree or disagree as your preaching others and move on. As I said, if the idea along with presented concept/scenario does work out, may see the light of the day but it doesn't require to call them incompetent, traitors or on suicidal missions.

How many fighters got hit by the debris of falling adversary aircraft after gun cannon use?

In-case a pilot is about to engage adversary in dog fight, what makes you think he or she doesn't consider the possible threat, the other adversary flying miles way & targeting him and there are some sort of SAM. In-fact, these are skills of fighter pilot as & when use to what sort of strategy and fighting plan. This is about situational awareness and all the modern day forces trains a lot on this. Situation awareness is the key and then comes the fight. I quoted about 27th Feb that some of Jf-17s were fitted with IFR but not all for the reason that it depends upon the mission type that varies the load of an Aircraft. The planners does know as why to keep the Cannon on JF-17s. Just because of lack of situation awareness does not weighs to remove Cannon. That is all I am saying.
 
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