JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[SQ8]

ever so reason why we need to get in JV with other countries as well, instead of buying everything of the shelf.
at-least the ones we have a large enough market for i.e, SAMs, helicopters, tanks, corvettes

turkey, Ukraine (recently sauids doing JV for transport ac) and SA have good avenues that we can explore.

CPEC is nothing but a brand name for investment, I am not sure about its utility as a corridor for land lock china

JV has to be with someone who actually has experience in the field. Doing JV with someone who has repute but not in the field you are good in is just bad decisions.

As an analogy, you go to a Chinese restaurant for their Chinese- but you dont end up ordering nehari there just because they have it on the menu.

 

[ziaulislam]

JV has to be with someone who actually has experience in the field. Doing JV with someone who has repute but not in the field you are good in is just bad decisions.

As an analogy, you go to a Chinese restaurant for their Chinese- but you dont end up ordering nehari there just because they have it on the menu.

very true but joining well accomplished companies(like BAE etc) will be very difficult unless there is big fortune waiting for them(like in case of india), the best option available will be among st the companies that are kinda in between.
examples will be Ukraine for engines/transport aircrafts, turkey for electronics, helicopters?, frigates and south africa for SAMs, helicopters

 

[SQ8]

very true but joining well accomplished companies(like BAE etc) will be very difficult unless there is big fortune waiting for them(like in case of india), the best option available will be among st the companies that are kinda in between.
examples will be Ukraine for engines/transport aircrafts, turkey for electronics, helicopters?, frigates and south africa for SAMs, helicopters

Multiple suppliers bring their own respective headaches and associated logistical costs. Not to mention training and integration of systems.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The Vixen would be out because the Chinese wont support it. Not that they cannot, but they want to force us to spend only money on them. The source code is not the issue for us and we can(and have done it) on our own for the Jf for a while.

It has to do with the Chinese playing sour puss in future developments. We need their facilities for improving the fighter and testing it; and they have a stake in the program.

As they demonstrated with anger during the crash caused by us carrying out tests on some western equipment, they do not appreciate our independent decisions when it comes to joint projects.
Makes you think about CPEC

Interesting. Thats why i have talked about developing home-grown fab-tech backbone. Must for survive. You are right on CPeC, reminds me of Perkins 'confessions of an economic hitman'. There are HK based large scale industrial businesses who have played a critical role in mainland industrialization & are also heavily influenced by wall street bankers.

I hope Pakistan will make a push to be more independent in terms of development, testing and integration with the FGF.

 

[Thorough Pro]

True independence comes from totally indigenous programs and home based research and development. All other countries friends or allies think of their interest first.

 

[Thunder.Storm]

any source or something? :-/ coz if by any chance this is true then i would most probably call it a license manufacture of Denel BVRs in pakistan with own name just like raptor series we did....thas what i am guessing nowadays

@Windjammer and @Oscar and others can you confirm it ?

A Marlin/B-Datar license production or a 100% home grown project?

There was some interest in the Denel program, and some reports of some work being done in AWC back in 2000s but nothing after that. If a seeker was tested in real it will be interesting to know which of the two lines is being followed now. a) the Denel project, or b) the home grown solution.

First if you guys want source in the form of some kind of document or link then it is not possible for me to get it. And about the seeker it is confirmed it is tested, actually last month there were about 5 to 6 tests of different things one of them was IIR seeker. and a new missile is in pipeline for navy. AAM is in development in awc, and they conducted the test. i forgot the names of the navel missile and aam. but it is not JV it is totally indeg.

 

[TaimiKhan]

First if you guys want source in the form of some kind of document or link then it is not possible for me to get it. And about the seeker it is confirmed it is tested, actually last month there were about 5 to 6 tests of different things one of them was IIR seeker. and a new missile is in pipeline for navy. AAM is in development in awc, and they conducted the test. i forgot the names of the navel missile and aam. but it is not JV it is totally indeg.

I sincerely hope that we become successful in this endeavour as its a must and with IIR seeker, radar guided seeker tech also should be sought.

Any break through in this tech will help us in going for other kind of precision guided munitions especially air launched ones and surface to surface ones.

Pakistan needs to invest heavily in precision guided munitions whether for air to surface or surface to surface from missiles to rockets and artillery plus ATGMs.

 

[araz]

First if you guys want source in the form of some kind of document or link then it is not possible for me to get it. And about the seeker it is confirmed it is tested, actually last month there were about 5 to 6 tests of different things one of them was IIR seeker. and a new missile is in pipeline for navy. AAM is in development in awc, and they conducted the test. i forgot the names of the navel missile and aam. but it is not JV it is totally indeg.

Bhai.
Whether it was tested or not, please dont talk about it on a public forum. There are plenty of more knowledgable people on the forum who choose to keep their mouths closed. Whether you have or dont have clearance what the PAF OR the Army dont announce should be kept as such.
A standard MO of espionage is to ask you for proof and ridicule you till you get in a huff and provide it. Please be careful.
A

 

[SQ8]

Bhai.
Whether it was tested or not, please dont talk about it on a public forum. There are plenty of more knowledgable people on the forum who choose to keep their mouths closed. Whether you have or dont have clearance what the PAF OR the Army dont announce should be kept as such.
A standard MO of espionage is to ask you for proof and ridicule you till you get in a huff and provide it. Please be careful.
A

This is the problem endured with new "informants"

What are the chances- small or not- that some government employee of other nations reads this and is able to corroborate with other humint they might have.
Based on that, they request their Humint(moles or otherwise) to find out about this or recruit more moles..

Hypothetical but possible

 

[araz]

This is the problem endured with new "informants"

What are the chances- small or not- that some government employee of other nations reads this and is able to corroborate with other humint they might have.
Based on that, they request their Humint(moles or otherwise) to find out about this or recruit more moles..

Hypothetical but possible

Every one here has a need to feel important! This is the same disease. You never hear of Bilal khan777 or Madam Messiach or yourself jumpong up and down saying "I know a secret! I know a secret!.."
A

 

[SQ8]

Every one here has a need to feel important! This is the same disease. You never hear of Bilal khan777 or Madam Messiach or yourself jumpong up and down saying "I know a secret! I know a secret!.."
A

Nobody really has all the inside info, those that do are generally smart enough to not disclose anything that can't be ascertained from public or "just below the surface" public knowledge.

Everyone generally has either family, friends or business connections that they hear stuff from or ask random questions that land them to that info inadvertently. Most military men now know opsec quite well(thank god!) and are usually very tight lipped or know to "reveal" what is already known.
Officers in key positions also have their lives monitored by both friendlies and enemies alike, if one did not catch the very real humour in Alpha Bravo Charlie regarding that.

Take the JF-17 for e.g
The performance of the SD-10 was already known disclosed via AVIC and other sources to Jane's and others. So most officers could say its equal to AIM-120C but it would still be considered by some as a scoop.

 

[Readerdefence]

I sincerely hope that we become successful in this endeavour as its a must and with IIR seeker, radar guided seeker tech also should be sought.

Any break through in this tech will help us in going for other kind of precision guided munitions especially air launched ones and surface to surface ones.

Pakistan needs to invest heavily in precision guided munitions whether for air to surface or surface to surface from missiles to rockets and artillery plus ATGMs.

Hi is there a possibility that in future or may be already USA and Russian have the technology to
Jam the precision munitions with radio wave or the bombs miss the targets
I have an apprehension which I might be wrong that Israelis are trying or in the process of
Developing something like this
Appreciated if you put up some of your enhanced views
Thx

 

[air marshal]

https://www.facebook.com/SAirCollection/

 

[SQ8]

i have a question do you feel the JF-17s lack of payload is a big drawback in air to air and air to ground roles, in intercept roles in can only carry 2 BVR missiles, i'd have imagined you need 4 BVR Missiles, my perception is that the monuverability of the JF-17 is impaired with bigger payloads but the drawback is once you fire your missiles you have to run back to base, and in a way you're unarmed.

Lack of payload compared to what?
Take the Taiwanise FCK-1
It is approximately the same size and dimensions as the JF-17- it has similar payload restrictions as well.
The Northrop F-20, similar dimensions and payload restrictions.
Novi-1 yugoslavia- had similar payload restrictions.
With the Tejas, the Indians took advantage in wiring their wet hardpoints for Air to Air.

However, for most aircombat scenarios within the subcontinent, you don't need four missiles because with both sides normally based 10 minutes or 15 from ther borders- WVR distances are gained within minutes. If your BVRAMs are expended by that time,
You are already very maneuverable.
Although there is no evidence to support your assertion that the JF-17 is not maneuveable with 2 x WVr and 2bvrn and centerline tank.

For air to ground, the JF-17 can carry as much as any of these fighters so I don't know how you can make that statement.


Air combat and air warfare is not numbers, otherwise the USAF would not be drawing a 1:1 kill ratio with basic gun migs in Vietnam.

 

[SQ8]

sorry but for a senior member you present a very illogical statement.
.THE F20 And FCK1 are not contemporary machines, and the novi-1 never made it past design phase i don't understand why you've used them as some kind of example in your statement, the tigershark was forgotten in the 80s and FCK1 isnt even regarded as a threat By anyone, when you fire 2 bvr missiles and the 2 Shots you've fired don't hit the target you're supposed to fly back to base but what guarantee do you have that you're air base will be there when you fly back? or the runway destroyed by the enemy. for a senior member you do present an easily flawed argument, if the FC-1 fires 2 bvr missiles and the enemy deploys flares you're claim is that by the time the BVR missile is fired, the enemy wouldn't have detected the FC-1 and the FC-1 would some how be invincible on there radars and some how be able to combat them in WVR. You didn't read my post properly i said that an FC1 with 4 BVR Missiles +2 WVR missiles will be too bulky for combat vs 2 BVRs

Instead of wasting your time and mine with a flawed argument, why don't you present your supposed technical 2 line argument better then?
Also, before doing such technical discussions.. learn to read on the subject.
Such as BVR missiles employed by the FC-1 are Radar guided and they are not distracted by flares but chaff.

So junior or senior, present a less ignorant argument when trying to rebuke someone to not look like an idiot as you are sounding right now