JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[Max Pain]

Hi,

If it reaches moderate levels----then find ways to resolves issues, make peace and sign the dotted line.

By J 11----I mean the latest version of this aircraft. Pakistan needs at least 2 to 3 sqdrn's of heavy strike and air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft immediately under the current circumstances.

Other than that----your numbers of JF 17's and f16's would need to be increased. Another 2 to 3 sqdrn's of F16's blk 52 mlu.

Make a deal-------Get rid of Dr Shakeel Afridi----get 3 sqdrn's of blk 52's or equivalent mlu'd----and the 3 frigates being decommissioned with all its current equipment.

The number of F16's need to be increased to 150 in stock on a fastrak pace.

Instead of a lean and mean air force of around 300 to 350----the changing times need it to be power projecting 500 +++. A minimum of 250---300 aesa equipped JF 17's----150 F16's-----and at least 50 heavies.

Your next gen aircraft would be a J31 or J20 whatever it is----which is possibly 10--12 years from now.

Get some HQ9 batteries----.

There is always strength in quality----but there is also strength in numbers when matched with quality----. The JF 17 is a must with AESA. This radar has its own magic.

Last but not the least-----a coward must not be a leader---Nawaz must go----. He is a gutless coward----has no backbone---he is a peacenik---he would degrade his military in front of the world just to show that he is peace loving---.

I wish his younger brother Shahbaz would have the guts to lead.

The bottomline is that it s the leader the opponent fears the most---everything else is complimentary----.

to be honest, as much as I would love to see it, I find to too good to be true,
Getting an AESA wont be an easy task, as @Oscar has mentioned before,the cooling problem will persist in the presence of and AESA and such Airframe might not be able to accommodate the cooling equipment of an AESA.
as far as the numbers is concerned, if this rate continues we'll be able to get J-31's but we might never have the adequate amount of JF-17 to replace the Mirages and PG's
and yes the improved versions such as J-15 and J-16 would be much feasible for PN.I'd love to see some in Pakistan's color.

 

[SQ8]

suitable name for jf-17 block2 is
jf-17NG

Oh Puhleez.. the most suitable name for it is JF-17 .. 2nd production batch.

 

[monitor]

suitable name for jf-17 block2 is
jf-17NG

capability is more important then name .

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

JF 17 won't sell right now----buyers want to see the final version before they make the decision----. J 10 is inferior to our BLK 52---so there is no reason for that.

So---under today's scenario---the rafale would have been the best bet when pak had the opportunity---now if they lease a few J11's---maybe.

Sir,
With due respect would it not be a nightmare to induct J11's (a new type training, logistics and maintenance.)

According to my limited knowledge it would be better to get some F-15 (though that is not probable). F-15 share the same F-16 logistics and maintenance.

With my limited knowledge if we are only going for air superiority dedicated fighter aircraft, deep strike roles can be done by F-16 blk 52.

 

[AFlover]

Hi,

Indeed the F16 deal is the force multiplier even if it is 5 years behind----thanks to the other side---or we would have been screwed.

My position has been to never ditch the F16-----we have a love / hate relationship with the u s and we need to keep the relationship as hard as it may be. Our problem has been with how to talk with the americans in their language.

There is nothing wrong with having a love affair with the F16----it is a fantastic aircraft with superior weapons systems for strike and air superiority---.

One of the problems with paf has been that it has been a REACTIVE air force in its decision making---once they feel that the threat level is dissipating----they make believe that it has disappeared---and that has caused them to make blunders by cancelling procurements or delaying them.

They need to understand that if the threat is dissipating---then if they move ahead with their procurement----they will get a step ahead of the game.

As I mentioned in the other post---Pakistan needs tp change its stance from minimum aircraft ( 350 ) needed for deterrence to maximum aircraft ( 500 + ) needed for air superiority.

500-550 is the magic number for the paf for frontline aircraft excluding the mirage 3 / 5 and F7 PG's-----.

IAF will never be able to bring in 2 1/2 to 3 times the numbers on the Pakistan front to overwhelm paf----and paf on the other hand can procure 500 aircraft within the 5 years time period or sooner----.

If paf can reach those numbers in 3 to 4 years---then it can instigate a limited war---.

350 is a lean and mean air force----500 is a hard hitting right in your face kind of air force

Truly calculated & recommended totally agreed!

 

[MastanKhan]

I wonder how the USA will play its cards in the region?

Sir,
With due respect would it not be a nightmare to induct J11's (a new type training, logistics and maintenance.)

According to my limited knowledge it would be better to get some F-15 (though that is not probable). F-15 share the same F-16 logistics and maintenance.

With my limited knowledge if we are only going for air superiority dedicated fighter aircraft, deep strike roles can be done by F-16 blk 52.

Hi,

The thing is that india is not going to slow down and stop harassing Pakistan now---so---what are you going to do---you need something to counter.

Regradless if it is F15 or J16----or another 2-3 sqdrn's of F16 Blk 52 configs----you need numbers with a minimum capability of BLK 52 with their AIM missiles to give you air superiority.

It is a must to enter into a combat with IAF and take out some of their SU 30's-----that is the only way they will back off now. The point of no return is slowly but surely being reached---.

India has walked off any kind of communication and peace talks---. It has prepped its public for a limited war---the indian public is ready---the indian military is ready---it is now a matter of escalation into cold start at their discretion and time.

Pakistan and Pakistanis made many a bad choices over the last 13 years---let us see what the beginning of the end game brings.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

The thing is that india is not going to slow down and stop harassing Pakistan now---so---what are you going to do---you need something to counter.

Regradless if it is F15 or J16----or another 2-3 sqdrn's of F16 Blk 52 configs----you need numbers with a minimum capability of BLK 52 with their AIM missiles to give you air superiority.

It is a must to enter into a combat with IAF and take out some of their SU 30's-----that is the only way they will back off now. The point of no return is slowly but surely being reached---.

India has walked off any kind of communication and peace talks---. It has prepped its public for a limited war---the indian public is ready---the indian military is ready---it is now a matter of escalation into cold start at their discretion and time.

Pakistan and Pakistanis made many a bad choices over the last 13 years---let us see what the beginning of the end game brings.

Pakistan should be on the lookout for another false flagged terrorist attack in India, akin to 2001/2008, the excuse India would put up is that non-state actors who want to jeopardize the peace efforts, meanwhile undermining Pakistan's role in Afghanistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan should be on the lookout for another false flagged terrorist attack in India, akin to 2001/2008, the excuse India would put up is that non-state actors who want to jeopardize the peace efforts, meanwhile undermining Pakistan's role in Afghanistan.

Hi,

Thank you----that is what the purpose of this aggression by india during the eid holidays---set the local population up----set the world media up---.

 

[nomi007]

blast from the past

pt-03

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

blast from the past
View attachment 138570 pt-03

This picture was circulating over internet at the time of Super-7 / JF-17 PT-1 development.
I believe its nothing more that a extensively photo-shopped F-7.

 

[Didact]

Hi,

The thing is that india is not going to slow down and stop harassing Pakistan now---so---what are you going to do---you need something to counter.

Regradless if it is F15 or J16----or another 2-3 sqdrn's of F16 Blk 52 configs----you need numbers with a minimum capability of BLK 52 with their AIM missiles to give you air superiority.

It is a must to enter into a combat with IAF and take out some of their SU 30's-----that is the only way they will back off now. The point of no return is slowly but surely being reached---.

India has walked off any kind of communication and peace talks---. It has prepped its public for a limited war---the indian public is ready---the indian military is ready---it is now a matter of escalation into cold start at their discretion and time.

Pakistan and Pakistanis made many a bad choices over the last 13 years---let us see what the beginning of the end game brings.

Interesting thoughts. I'll put in a few points.

Firstly, IAF has no intention of allowing PAF to gain air superiority, let that be very clear. The IAF will do whatever it takes, spend however much it needs, buy whatever it gets its hands on, to ensure PAF never again has superior air assets again.

The PAF realizes this very well. Their best strategy lies in airspace denial or in a more conservative outlook, denying air superiority over Pak airspace.

Secondly, You do realize that attacking IAF aircraft will be an overt declaration of war. You are not talking about lobbing a few mortar shells over the LOC or Working boundary here. You are talking of taking down an IAF jet inside Indian airspace. And that is in a border region where IAF tracks balloons, birds even god dammed kites near the border/LOC/WB.

But besides that, what if PAF fighters get downed in the engagement? What do you do then? Back out meekly after a failed attack? Attack again and risk further escalation? Keep in mind that the moment IAF releases the radar data that shows you are the aggressor, you most definitely will lose international support, and with that the desperately required IMF/World Bank support.

Also there is almost no doubt in senior PAF commanders minds that any attack on IAF will invite swift and heavy retaliation on the PAF bases. Kaiser Tufail has, in his blog, clearly put out this fear within the PAF establishment in his article on Kargil conflict.

And thirdly, for the sake of conspiracies, what if PM Modi actually wants Pak to commit such an act of aggression, indefensible on the international forum? What if this the type of headstrong act he needs to justify escalation?

And finally, Cold Start does not exist now, and perhaps never did. India will not go to war, even if another Mumbai were to occur tomorrow. It will take far worse than that to force India to war now.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

The thing is that india is not going to slow down and stop harassing Pakistan now---so---what are you going to do---you need something to counter.

Regradless if it is F15 or J16----or another 2-3 sqdrn's of F16 Blk 52 configs----you need numbers with a minimum capability of BLK 52 with their AIM missiles to give you air superiority.

It is a must to enter into a combat with IAF and take out some of their SU 30's-----that is the only way they will back off now. The point of no return is slowly but surely being reached---.

India has walked off any kind of communication and peace talks---. It has prepped its public for a limited war---the indian public is ready---the indian military is ready---it is now a matter of escalation into cold start at their discretion and time.

Pakistan and Pakistanis made many a bad choices over the last 13 years---let us see what the beginning of the end game brings.

I do agree with you on the quantity of aircraft that are required. In my opinion these are the posibilities PAF has in procuring aircraft on short notice.

Pakistan has a very limited scope of getting any thing suitable at this short notice. Though there are enough F16's, F-15 and F-18 is USA but they are to be given by Congress aproval. (US economy is in the red, PAF may be able to play some cards)

Friench Mirage 2000-9's that UAE wants to sell are not available at the moment as they are being used against ISIS. Rafale may be available but the cost may be too high. (France historically always plays both sides)

Saab Gripen E is not available for ready delivery.

Eurofighter can be aquired as they are availible, still that is too expensive. (Limitation is the German possision of not providing to the hostile but this can be taken care of.)

Tornado are also available but thay are for ground attack.

J-11's might only be possible if the Chinese are able to resolve the Russian engines essue.
J-10 is more likely to the aircraft that can come without too much fuss but it is still not a combact proven.It might not be as advance as the F-16 blk 50/52 but still a potant threat if it is available in large numbers.

A very interesting situation may come into play but that is in ragards to the production capabilities of CATIC providing atleast 50-70 JF-17's over night.

 

[SQ8]

Interesting thoughts. I'll put in a few points.

Firstly, IAF has no intention of allowing PAF to gain air superiority, let that be very clear. The IAF will do whatever it takes, spend however much it needs, buy whatever it gets its hands on, to ensure PAF never again has superior air assets again.

The PAF realizes this very well. Their best strategy lies in airspace denial or in a more conservative outlook, denying air superiority over Pak airspace..

To avoid derailing from the core subject, lets return to the JF-17 Thunder and its purpose regarding the red bit. 71 onwards the PAF realizes that the air superiority it could have enjoyed over the IAF circa 65 was no longer going to be possible. First and foremost, unlike the rather laughable flying club type organization put up by the IAF in the earlier conflict.. the IAF had turned into a very well organized, well trained and well led force(and continues to be this way to date).

In light of this the PAF's earlier ability to outfly the IAF from a training standpoint has greatly diminished to near null. The JF-17 is in a way a product of the thinking that out fighting the IAF over a longer period of time is no longer possible and hence all efforts must be made to hold out the first week. The aircraft is designed from the outset to be very effective over Pakistani airspace via the usage of networking and superior situational awareness(at least from hour 1) over the IAF. One can get a clue from the interviews of PAF official posted here earlier on the loadout of the JF-17( 2 x BVR and not four on dual racks or otherwise) that the objective is to fire those two and survive. Which means that the PAF is no longer looking to rely on better pilots but rather more pilots in the sky at any given time. This seems odd but if one looks in retrospect the IAF will not be committing all its assets in whatever future limited conflict that ensues. The PAF takes this on by focusing on the idea of having two JF-17s in the air for every Sukhoi(as an exemplar). Further more, the focus in no longer to fight for control of the airspace over the length and breadth of Pakistan but rather over key installations. Local "air superiority" will be exchanged between both parties over the frontline.

In this regard the JF-17 becomes the ideal preventive strategy to an IAF that is equipped with superior hardware. The Sukhoi for e.g may have superior ranged radar but then it is dealing with much smaller fighters that require it to get closer to track. This allows those smaller aircraft to get in close as well(a tactic will used by Mig-21 Bisons in Cope India to their advantage). Moreover, the focus on higher sortie rates by the PAF means that there will be an onus on the IAF to keep sending up greater number of shooters into the fight: can it? will it overstress its assets into maintaining that air to air shooter ratio?

This depends on the intensity of the conflict. The greater the intensity.. the Greater the advantage shifts to the IAF. So if you are looking at an all out brawl.. the IAF will end the PAF's ability to interfere in the ground war in about a week or at most ten days. But if you looking at a intensified "skirmish".. chances are both sides will walk away with a similar number of body hits and bloody noses. The presence of nuclear weapons has pushed the conflict type towards the latter now, and that is what the PAF is hoping(but not necessarily ONLY geared for) to fight.

 

[Didact]

In light of this the PAF's earlier ability to outfly the IAF from a training standpoint has greatly diminished to near null. The JF-17 is in a way a product of the thinking that out fighting the IAF over a longer period of time is no longer possible and hence all efforts must be made to hold out the first week. The aircraft is designed from the outset to be very effective over Pakistani airspace via the usage of networking and superior situational awareness(at least from hour 1) over the IAF. One can get a clue from the interviews of PAF official posted here earlier on the loadout of the JF-17( 2 x BVR and not four on dual racks or otherwise) that the objective is to fire those two and survive. Which means that the PAF is no longer looking to rely on better pilots but rather more pilots in the sky at any given time. This seems odd but if one looks in retrospect the IAF will not be committing all its assets in whatever future limited conflict that ensues. The PAF takes this on by focusing on the idea of having two JF-17s in the air for every Sukhoi(as an exemplar). Further more, the focus in no longer to fight for control of the airspace over the length and breadth of Pakistan but rather over key installations. Local "air superiority" will be exchanged between both parties over the frontline.

In this regard the JF-17 becomes the ideal preventive strategy to an IAF that is equipped with superior hardware. The Sukhoi for e.g may have superior ranged radar but then it is dealing with much smaller fighters that require it to get closer to track. This allows those smaller aircraft to get in close as well(a tactic will used by Mig-21 Bisons in Cope India to their advantage). Moreover, the focus on higher sortie rates by the PAF means that there will be an onus on the IAF to keep sending up greater number of shooters into the fight: can it? will it overstress its assets into maintaining that air to air shooter ratio?

This depends on the intensity of the conflict. The greater the intensity.. the Greater the advantage shifts to the IAF. So if you are looking at an all out brawl.. the IAF will end the PAF's ability to interfere in the ground war in about a week or at most ten days. But if you looking at a intensified "skirmish".. chances are both sides will walk away with a similar number of body hits and bloody noses. The presence of nuclear weapons has pushed the conflict type towards the latter now, and that is what the PAF is hoping(but not necessarily ONLY geared for) to fight.

Well said, as I'd expect from you. (I've been a shadow member on this forum for nearly 8 years now, So I do know a bit about the members here.). But that aside, whatever you have written hinges on two important assumptions.

1. The ability of the PAF to field 150-250 JF-17s (or whatever numbers deemed necessary) to enable the localized numerical superiority to come into effect &

2. The IAF remaining relatively static in terms of squadrons in this period.

The second point is very important. The estimates are that by 2030, The IAF will be asked to hold some 53-55 squadrons, with the Navy 5-8. In such a case, the PAF would be too numerically outclassed to prevent their own airspace being "overrun" by the IAF.

But putting that aside again,

I've had debates with people who've joked about the (supposed) inferiority of the JF-17s vis-a-vis the MKIs etc of the IAF, and well let's just say concrete breaks faster than their misunderstanding of warfare. The fact is so long as Jf-17s maintain a respectable comparability with the IAF air fleet, PAF strategy (of holding out) will have a considerable probability for success.

This, along with what you've said about limited conflicts is why my own thoughts are ambivalent to the idea of a limited conflict with India as the aggressor. It presents unacceptably high risks for mere partial success, at around 1:1 loss ratio, both for land and air battles.

This obviously should not be misconstrued though. It is very much possible that the limited conflict achieves total success.

The Cope India exercise 2004-05 are over rated btw. There were too many restrictions on the USAF for the test data to be taken reliably. It is very much possible the outcomes would have been different had the F-15 radars not been disabled as per ROE.

 

[SQ8]

Well said, as I'd expect from you. (I've been a shadow member on this forum for nearly 8 years now, So I do know a bit about the members here.). But that aside, whatever you have written hinges on two important assumptions.

1. The ability of the PAF to field 150-250 JF-17s (or whatever numbers deemed necessary) to enable the localized numerical superiority to come into effect &

2. The IAF remaining relatively static in terms of squadrons in this period.

The second point is very important. The estimates are that by 2030, The IAF will be asked to hold some 53-55 squadrons, with the Navy 5-8. In such a case, the PAF would be too numerically outclassed to prevent their own airspace being "overrun" by the IAF.

But putting that aside again,

I've had debates with people who've joked about the (supposed) inferiority of the JF-17s vis-a-vis the MKIs etc of the IAF, and well let's just say concrete breaks faster than their misunderstanding of warfare. The fact is so long as Jf-17s maintain a respectable comparability with the IAF air fleet, PAF strategy (of holding out) will have a considerable probability for success.

This, along with what you've said about limited conflicts is why my own thoughts are ambivalent to the idea of a limited conflict with India as the aggressor. It presents unacceptably high risks for mere partial success, at around 1:1 loss ratio, both for land and air battles.

This obviously should not be misconstrued though. It is very much possible that the limited conflict achieves total success.

The Cope India exercise 2004-05 are over rated btw. There were too many restrictions on the USAF for the test data to be taken reliably. It is very much possible the outcomes would have been different had the F-15 radars not been disabled as per ROE.

Agreed. To take the old adage native to the northern border areas of the subcontinent "Jitna gur daalo ge, utna meetha hoga"(sweetness is relative to the sweetner). The current plans of the Indian military as a whole involve the addition of a rather copious amount of sweetner in its procurement. Hence the number of sophisticated systems within the Indian ORBAT is only going to rise.

Regarding the limited war, it will really play down the simple truth of who fights smarter and who knows how to use what is at their disposal better than the other.

Cope India was very skewed, but it also showcased in a way how the IAF has matured tactics on its older platforms. Can the same be said of the MKI after 11 years?.. Yes perhaps it has.