JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Donatello]

Not beg. The JF-17 is in a way our expression of having to stop begging around(although ironically the whole damn thing is on loan.)

No its not. To them its linked directly to their sectarian policy. You see, the JF-17 purchase intent was NEVER going to happen. However, just like you throw a dog a bone to get them to do your bidding(change policy on Syria.. cancel pipeline).. the Saudis threw it to us.. and we wagged out tails in brotherly love..

Yes, but what are we getting in return for supporting their Syria and Iran problems? It ain't like Saudi's said they'll pay off Pakistan's debt.

 

[SQ8]

Yes, but what are we getting in return for supporting their Syria and Iran problems? It ain't like Saudi's said they'll pay off Pakistan's debt.

Exactly. They just screwed us over and we're still trying to kiss their arse. All the JF-17s , F-16s and everything is not worth a hickey as long as we consider them friends.

 

[Informant]

Lesson never learned, but then again they got a good gullible idiot in Nooras.

 

[Donatello]

Exactly. They just screwed us over and we're still trying to kiss their arse. All the JF-17s , F-16s and everything is not worth a hickey as long as we consider them friends.

They are too darn deep in their ego to see anything. But since most of our mullahs and population sings the praises of 'muslim ummah' and bla bla, we have to have ties to them. Our culture is not the same. Just the religion. Actually, not even that. Wonder what non-sense Saudis preach. But what can we say when millions of Pakistanis have to go there to find work?

But Oscar, was JF-17 ever on agenda or was it just the media/fan boy hype? I think it was the latter.

F-16s we are still getting from Jordan. Now Jordan is something we can have better relations with. But then they are too small to matter.

 

[SQ8]

They are too darn deep in their ego to see anything. But since most of our mullahs and population sings the praises of 'muslim ummah' and bla bla, we have to have ties to them. Our culture is not the same. Just the religion. Actually, not even that. Wonder what non-sense Saudis preach. But what can we say when millions of Pakistanis have to go there to find work?

But Oscar, was JF-17 ever on agenda or was it just the media/fan boy hype? I think it was the latter.

F-16s we are still getting from Jordan. Now Jordan is something we can have better relations with. But then they are too small to matter.

The JF-17 hype came over when there was a mention if it made to the Saudi Defence minister.. as another product available.

 

[Donatello]

The JF-17 hype came over when there was a mention if it made to the Saudi Defence minister.. as another product available.

In any case, short term we cannot move away from the GCC nations at once. It will have to be constant thinking of our foreign policy.

 

[SQ8]

In any case, short term we cannot move away from the GCC nations at once. It will have to be constant thinking of our foreign policy.

We cant cut them off, but we can feign importance to them and ferret out which are basically glorified versions of the leaders of the Forty Thieves.. and which are true friends. Our recent F-16 purchase from Jordan is an example of a beneficial relationship that comes through.

 

[Bilal.]

lo bhai same old mood swings... we think in extremes... its either you my saga brother, I'll fight the world for you or Lets break all relations. Bhaiyon learn to be sober and in control of emotions. Middle path is the key...

 

[ziaulislam]

talking sweet to GCC or any other state for our national interest isnt bad. its bad when this goes against our national interest.

i fail to understand why pakistan canceled the iran pipeline. because neither saudi arbia or any GCC is ready to compensate for it(and yes they can by providing gas/oil at equal price) . iran gas pipleine will cost 70% of oil , today qatar is providing us at 90%.
the only other option is central asia where we might get it around 60% but its difficult to materialize

pakistan could have easily managed with barter trade besides turkeyand india are stilll huge importer of gas from iran

i never thought nor any other sensible person that saudi arabia will buy JF-17 that would have been a shocker.

 

[Donatello]

We cant cut them off, but we can feign importance to them and ferret out which are basically glorified versions of the leaders of the Forty Thieves.. and which are true friends. Our recent F-16 purchase from Jordan is an example of a beneficial relationship that comes through.

Well it would actually be an insult to compare Hussain era Jordan to the current authoritarian regimes in GCC.......But Jordan has not much to offer other than an example for peace. And yes F-16s.

 

[araz]

I agree with that, GCC are not our friends, they look only for their interests.

And you don't? Let go of this hypocrisy. Every nation looks for its own interests. Your job is to avail that opportunity to further your own growth. What have you given them that you now want them to work for your own interests.
Araz

 

[Chak Bamu]

In any case, short term we cannot move away from the GCC nations at once. It will have to be constant thinking of our foreign policy.

No need to move away. We just need to keep brotherhood in perspective and not allow it to cloud our better judgement.

The best thing to do would be to clock 7%+ growth rate and manage our energy sources as well as improve governance. We can make a kick-*** version of JF-17 from our own resources and it would sell itself. Basically it is a resource game. All that really needs to be done is to allow people to help Pakistan grow. Not that difficult.

GCC Arabs are living off a finite resource. They know it. Sooner or later they have to look outside. We are a natural, accessible, and friendly investment destination for them. We really do not need to go to them. We just need to concentrate on our own strengths.

 

[araz]

Well it would actually be an insult to compare Hussain era Jordan to the current authoritarian regimes in GCC.......But Jordan has not much to offer other than an example for peace. And yes F-16s.

Yara
You are talking of the same man who screwed his own brothers and snitched on them . He is along with.the rest of the middle eastern rulers responsible for the chaos that they find themselves in. Go and sit in the laps of Golda Mayer oh poodle of the west.
Araz

No need to move away. We just need to keep brotherhood in perspective and not allow it to cloud our better judgement.

The best thing to do would be to clock 7%+ growth rate and manage our energy sources as well as improve governance. We can make a kick-*** version of JF-17 from our own resources and it would sell itself. Basically it is a resource game. All that really needs to be done is to allow people to help Pakistan grow. Not that difficult.

GCC Arabs are living off a finite resource. They know it. Sooner or later they have to look outside. We are a natural, accessible, and friendly investment destination for them. We really do not need to go to them. We just need to concentrate on our own strengths.

Chak.
The problem is the sheer greed of Pakistani establishment. Believe me if they had worked honestly with the little investment that the arabs brought we would not have been in the shit hole that we are in now. Instead we would have been where Turkey is today economically. But our propensity to make a fast buck at the expense of long term gains has repeatedly caused mayhem and the trust level is now so bad thay no one in their right mind would setup anything in Pakistan. We are solely to blame corour own misfortunes.
Araz

 

[araz]

This is the same issue that I have noticed with Pakistani people in general. You guys build too many expectations from something and when it doesn't go through, it becomes all or nothing. People were jumping up and down to form a strategic relationship with KSA on here just a few days ago. Today, just after a few days past the Crown Prince's visit, it has come to "we can't trust KSA long term, etc, etc".
You guys take your own ball and run with it. You'll score a touchdown at some point and the JF-17's will be sold to others. Until then, don't worry about it and fulfill your own requirements.
Get your own house in order, grow your economy, middle class and the consumer base, other countries will come. Not to give you aid or mercy, but to benefit from a country of 200 million people and a talented labor force. But you, as Pakistanis have to take that initiative.
Take a look at India.....promoting non-violent peaceful image (although not for the entire India but true in the investment hubs), a staggering population base that speaks English and is educated, today, they are almost running all major powers with their lobby and bringing in hundreds of billions of foreign investment and interests. The investors see a RETURN in that market of 1.2 billion people. Investors don't go to India because India needs the aid. They go there to reap the benefits. Same should be the case, you guys are the sixth or seventh largest populated country on the planet. I personally know how local Americans in workplaces would make derogatory comments about the Indian accent and the food smell just around 1995s. Today, after less than 2 decades of hard work and playing within the Western system, they are running almost every big enterprise that's out there. So the PEOPLE have to take that initiative here to be proud Pakistanis and work hard. Won't happen any other way.
Sorry, the post seems off topic but I really wanted to respond to this post to show the gap in the thought process from a strategic standpoint.

A very balanced and positive post. Relationships should nit be about gives and takes but of working out common I terests and working HONESTLY AND SINCERELY towards these goals. We expect handouts and get offended when we dont get what we want. We dont look at other people's perspective.

 

[Donatello]

Yara
You are talking of the same man who screwed his own brothers and snitched on them . He is along with.the rest of the middle eastern rulers responsible for the chaos that they find themselves in. Go and sit in the laps of Golda Mayer oh poodle of the west.
Araz

Araz,

I always respect your views. You state the facts, but what you are ignoring what i meant to say was that Hussain was a very smart man. Actually, i've had this discussion with my Jordanian friends, that Hussain was a very clever man. He knew that Jordan can no longer seek to be an enemy of Israel in a region where it is surrounded by the Israel-Palestine mess, and bigger neighbors likes Syria, Iraq, Saudi etc. So he made peace with Israelis and in return was able to boost the image of his country all over the world. Jordanians are respected people. They don't suffer from identity crisis that Pakistanis have to go through. In order to achieve this, you have to sacrifice and compromise. Today, Jordan is a stable state. Their per capita GDP is better than ours. Their HDI is better than ours. So is their literacy and financial position. Amman is positioning itself to be an attractive destination for MNCs.

Who cares if he snitched on on his family? Things like these happen in Monarchy. Were the Mughals any better? Perhaps not. But at least Jordan being a small state, knew it could no longer afford to keep fighting useless wars. The result is that Jordanians are better off than perhaps any South Asian nation or the people of Iraq/Syria/Libya/Palestine etc.

We are Pakistanis. We need to think about Pakistan first. Wars don't bring peace. They drain the resources of the nation both financially and morally. Not to mention human cost. Pakistan should not be involving itself in the affairs of Saudi Iran or Saudi Syria Problem. We are not even Arabs. Our culture is different. Let them do it themselves. We have bigger problems at home.