JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[VCheng]

There is typical pro USA attitude in posting form certain posters that have no idea what they talk about. The issue is that not only do they post here but move on to other forums and act like they are Pakistani but degrade "their" nation. Not one single fact comes form these kind of posters. They have no single technical fact but love to share statements... PERSONAL statements. I love the idea for adding a social section called waste of time. Some people think I smile now... Not really. These posters have an agenda.

Quoted for posterity.

 

[araz]

"VCheng, post: 5204771, member: 32635"]Apparently to hope for a reply based on the topic rather than crowdssuch personal attacks was too mu €ch.

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Trying topoint export JF-17s with Russian engines is much mappointment lmplicated than trying to export them with Chinese engines, wouldn't you agree?[/quote
Acknowledged and appropriate adjustments made. What personal attack? I am really of that age where I can call you a naughty boy. I thought it would be endeering rather than an insult. Other than that, point to anything objectionable and I will gladly apologize. You just got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and now your are playing pouty miss polly with me again. VCHENG Really!!!!.
As alluded to earlier PAF would never have made the effort of a sales with a perceived problem with the supply of the 93s dont you think so???.
Come on Vcheng try a little harder. The stripes have fallen on the floor being pummelled by the angry crowds and the stars are circling round someones dazed head. What is going on here!!!
araz

 

[SQ8]

@VCheng
If you look at Europe. F86 was terrible. F4 was BVR oriented only. F5 was terrible. Starfighter was awful. F16 was just super downgraded F15. Europe had better alternatives from their own industry but they were forced to buy US planes. Now the European have hardly any capabilities left and sold their knowledge to the USA....

Not that I agree with @VCheng on many things. but that is just poor rating. The F-86 has generally been acclaimed as a very fine fighter and perhaps one(if not the) of the Finest dogfighters of its time. The F-4 perhaps suffered from doctrinal ideas.. yet is still taken as the standard for fighter-bombers of its day. The 104 was also a fine interceptor.. claiming multiple time to height records.. and was desiged well to engage bombers.. The F-16 was NEVER a downgraded F-15.. perhaps a read of the F-16 program is at hand for you. It was designed to counter hordes of Soviet fighters and initially did not even have a comparable radar...and until it was found out that it was actually very good as a bomb truck as well was it fitted with better avionics. It still has one of best sustained turn rates of any fighter. The Europeans were forced in certain cases to buy from the US and did lose a lot of good fighter programs.. but at the same time, a lot of good fighter programs in the US were lost to political lobbying.

As for immigrants.. The US was founded on immigrants(mayflower anyone??).. so it is the immigrant state of the world.. sometimes these immigrants turn out to be brilliant.

 

[Secur]

@Secur

Just enjoy, its another trick in the circus.

Is it possible , mate , that you tried to mention me elsewhere somehow but mistakenly posted something here ?

 

[SQ8]

Back to the topic, it is quite clear that the production line will remain busy with trying to complete PAF's own requirements for the JF-17 for several years to come, before any exports can be contemplated.

That was quite clear early on. The production line in Kamra WILL NOT export anything till the PAF's own orders are met. However, to counter this limitation, certain vested interest leapt upon the idea of establishing a secondary production line which was just an afterthought by certain idealists to not have the line concentrated at one point and the lack of space(and any puncutation by me) at Kamra. The father of Sindhman decided that this was not a moneymaking opportunity to be missed and had some land "sold" to the PAF at Nawabshah.
Eyebrows raised over outlays on PAF base Nawabshah

If exports are to be made within the current production capacity then they will certainly displace PAF orders. The only possibility is if they make exports via China or the line at Kamra is expanded which requires further investment.

All that being said. Lets not give a member more attention than he deserves.

 

[Armstrong]

Not that I agree with @VCheng on many things. but that is just poor rating. The F-86 has generally been acclaimed as a very fine fighter and perhaps one(if not the) of the Finest dogfighters of its time. The F-4 perhaps suffered from doctrinal ideas.. yet is still taken as the standard for fighter-bombers of its day. The 104 was also a fine interceptor.. claiming multiple time to height records.. and was desiged well to engage bombers.. The F-16 was NEVER a downgraded F-15.. perhaps a read of the F-16 program is at hand for you. It was designed to counter hordes of Soviet fighters and initially did not even have a comparable radar...and until it was found out that it was actually very good as a bomb truck as well was it fitted with better avionics. It still has one of best sustained turn rates of any fighter. The Europeans were forced in certain cases to buy from the US and did lose a lot of good fighter programs.. but at the same time, a lot of good fighter programs in the US were lost to political lobbying.

A question, if you will : I've never quite understood what was it about these old air-frames that caused their retirement ?

I mean when a lay-man like myself looks at the Mirages we have & then looks at the Tejas - they look like sister airplanes - as if the Mirage has gone through an F-7 to an F-7PG or some of the more radical F-7 evolutions !

So I often wonder what was it about those old airframes that made them redundant ?

If it was the lack of capacity ? Couldn't we have maybe done what the Japs did with their F-16 Evolution - F2 I presume which looks like an over-sized F-16 !

If it was the lack of aerodynamics or whatever the correct term would be then how could some of their Evolutions are still flying about ?

I mean the Jf-17 or the Tejas to my untrained & illiterate eye don't seem radically different then say a Rafael does !

As for immigrants.. The US was founded on immigrants(mayflower anyone??).. so it is the immigrant state of the world.. sometimes these immigrants turn out to be brilliant.

If you take up American Nationality I'd disown you !

Unless of course if you Lobby for Pakistan & raise your kids as Pakistanis then its alright !

My younger cousins in California can't even speak Urdu !

 

[VCheng]

That was quite clear early on. The production line in Kamra WILL NOT export anything till the PAF's own orders are met. However, to counter this limitation, certain vested interest leapt upon the idea of establishing a secondary production line which was just an afterthought by certain idealists to not have the line concentrated at one point and the lack of space(and any puncutation by me) at Kamra. The father of Sindhman decided that this was not a moneymaking opportunity to be missed and had some land "sold" to the PAF at Nawabshah.
Eyebrows raised over outlays on PAF base Nawabshah

If exports are to be made within the current production capacity then they will certainly displace PAF orders. The only possibility is if they make exports via China or the line at Kamra is expanded which requires further investment.

All that being said. Lets not give a member more attention than he deserves.

Like all big defense projects not audited openly, there many layers of vested interests that will push and pull large amounts of money to suit themselves in the best of Pakistani traditions. Having said that, expanded production facilities may free up capacity to contemplate building JF-17s for export surely. But unless the present powerplant is upgraded and/or replaced and amenable to local production, these exports will remain difficult to achieve.

 

[Informant]

My younger cousins in California can't even speak Urdu !

My nephews have such broken gender confused urdu that i am mostly smiling at them from sheer amazement. These little devils are hardcore Pakistani when it comes to food.

Oh well hope they ditch the Golden state of GREAT SATAN and come to UAE so i cant see them more often.

Armstrong metal fatigue, cycles, economics, competition, usability all play role in the retirement. But what would a guy with an accountancy thingy know. Chalo beta chaein banayein ja kay

 

[AUz]

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Back to the topic, it is quite clear that the production line will remain busy with trying to complete PAF's own requirements for the JF-17 for several years to come, before any exports can be contemplated.

Parallel production lines can be set up. Transfer of technology can happen and production lines can be set up in the country receiving JF-17s...additional production lines can be set up in China by CATIC at full throttle..

Supply won't be a problem if export orders are confirmed.

 

[VCheng]

Parallel production lines can be set up. Transfer of technology can happen and production lines can be set up in the country receiving JF-17s...additional production lines can be set up in China by CATIC at full throttle..

Supply won't be a problem if export orders are confirmed.

So what comes first? The capacity to produce or the orders? Most customers would like to ensure that their supplier is able to meet the commitments made.

 

[AUz]

So what comes first? The capacity to produce or the orders? Most customers would like to ensure that their supplier is able to meet the commitments made.

lol,that would include in the deal man.

Saudis, for example, won't say "Ok habibis, I want 100 JF-17s by 2016..Ya'llah!" ....ALOT will go into a deal if signed. Most probably, if deal happens with rich Middle-East countries, it would involve a transfer of technology and a better JF-17 version...and again, if a deal happens, it won't be a problem for Pakistanis-Chinese together to pull the deal through by say 2018, 0r 2020 etc...

I'm quite sure that if Pakistan-China are "offering" JF-17 to different nations, they are atleast as smart as you are to understand that if orders are confirmed, they'll have to deliver the product on time. So surely they have plans on how to do. Otherwise, they would not have been offering JFTs to people all over the world.

 

[SQ8]

I mean when a lay-man like myself looks at the Mirages we have & then looks at the Tejas - they look like sister airplanes - as if the Mirage has gone through an F-7 to an F-7PG or some of the more radical F-7 evolutions !

So I often wonder what was it about those old airframes that made them redundant ?

If it was the lack of capacity ? Couldn't we have maybe done what the Japs did with their F-16 Evolution - F2 I presume which looks like an over-sized F-16 !

If it was the lack of aerodynamics or whatever the correct term would be then how could some of their Evolutions are still flying about ?

I mean the Jf-17 or the Tejas to my untrained & illiterate eye don't seem radically different then say a Rafael does !



If you take up American Nationality I'd disown you !

Unless of course if you Lobby for Pakistan & raise your kids as Pakistanis then its alright !

My younger cousins in California can't even speak Urdu !

They were designed with materials, manufacturing techniques and aerodynamic understanding that was for their time. The Tejas is miles ahead in aerodynamic design than a mirage and much more so in manufacturing technique. The F-2 is also a very redesigned fighter(and is also a product of the late 80s and 90s). Once has to remember that even in the 90's the F-16 was the premier fighter bomber. The result of the F-2 program was that the Japanese had at one point the most advanced F-16 derivative but that ended up with their aircraft getting cracks much earlier in the life time.

Aircraft like the Rafale are much ahead than the JF-17 and the Tejas as well in the way what they embody.As I said before elsewhere The JF-17 is a late 70s and early 80's design philosophy updated with some 21st Century design and aerodynamic improvements being built with the latest in conventional metal construction. The Tejas is a mid to late 80's design and aerodynamic concept being built with 21st century materials and manufacturing ideals. The Rafale is a design born in the 80's with aerodynamics in the 90s.. built to 21st Century standards and materials. It also has a lot more in terms of material design and input into it. Quite literally, its built out of more expensive stuff and a lot more man hours go into producing the rafale than say a JF-17 or the Tejas. Not just because its a larger aircraft, but also because of all the expensive stuff that goes into it which takes time to "put in place".

If Advanced construction and manoeuvrability were the only criteria.. then the 80's X-29 embodied much more advanced aerodynamics and construction techniques than quite a few of the types flying today. Yet, it exceeded the requirements of then aircraft.. or simply was not wanted. A lot of older types flying today are doing so for ONE simple reason.. MONEY. If the operators had the money , they would fly something newer and advanced.

Like all big defense projects not audited openly, there many layers of vested interests that will push and pull large amounts of money to suit themselves in the best of Pakistani traditions. Having said that, expanded production facilities may free up capacity to contemplate building JF-17s for export surely. But unless the present powerplant is upgraded and/or replaced and amenable to local production, these exports will remain difficult to achieve.

Difficult only in the face of diplomatic pressure. When the pressure does not happen, like say China or another area.. then prospects are there. I see difficulties not in engine as much as I see from lobby.

 

[VCheng]

..............

Difficult only in the face of diplomatic pressure. When the pressure does not happen, like say China or another area.. then prospects are there. I see difficulties not in engine as much as I see from lobby.

Intense diplomatic maneuvering has been, is, and will remain an integral part of all major international defense deals.

 

[Superboy]

Aircraft like the Rafale are much ahead than the JF-17 and the Tejas as well in the way what they embody.As I said before elsewhere The JF-17 is a late 70s and early 80's design philosophy updated with some 21st Century design and aerodynamic improvements being built with the latest in conventional metal construction. The Tejas is a mid to late 80's design and aerodynamic concept being built with 21st century materials and manufacturing ideals. The Rafale is a design born in the 80's with aerodynamics in the 90s.. built to 21st Century standards and materials. It also has a lot more in terms of material design and input into it. Quite literally, its built out of more expensive stuff and a lot more man hours go into producing the rafale than say a JF-17 or the Tejas. Not just because its a larger aircraft, but also because of all the expensive stuff that goes into it which takes time to "put in place".

IMO Tejas has nothing exceptional about it. What does it offer over, say, an F-16? Its design looks rather plain to me. JF-17 is a late 90s design, featuring some new 21st century designs like DSI air intakes. JF-17 is by no means a late 70s to early 80s design like F-20 Tigershark or Mirage 2000.

 

[SQ8]

IMO Tejas has nothing exceptional about it. What does it offer over, say, an F-16? Its design looks rather plain to me. JF-17 is a late 90s design, featuring some new 21st century designs like DSI air intakes. JF-17 is by no means a late 70s to early 80s design like F-20 Tigershark or Mirage 2000.

The Tigershark has its basic origins in the 50's. Its first N-156 prototype, the predecessor of the F-5 was flown in 1959. the F-20 was developed from the basic F-5 design in the 80;s but retained a lot of the original aircrafts design concepts.