JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[MastanKhan]

Do you think there are pass fail criterions for chinese weaponry?

How do they differ from american, french or russian standards of testing?

How does anyone deem one all aspect missile and the seeker better than the other without access to both of the original test reports?

what is A+ and B+ according to you and how did you determine these grades?

Hi,

How do I address you! Just because you have a new missile built today---you have no clue how it will handle when it is needed 5 years from now---. Your weapons systems have to perform at 100% capacity when they are needed every single time.

Let me ask you now---do you have a child --- a little baby---are you a father---baby is real sick---you get a prescription---the doctor says the condition is very serious---there is serious infection---it needs to be taken care of right away otherwise you may lose the baby---go to pharmacy----the pharmacist gives you an option---. He has the antibitotic made in the USA, made in switzerland made in china---you come from an all male family---all boys 6 of them---your baby is a little girl---first baby girl in your family---your parents---your brothers and yourself are beyond joy---she is the star of your eyes and everybody in the household----.

Make a choice and live with it for the rest of your life---. As I am a father---I can tell you---a mistake that you make---it haunts you the rest of your life.

MK is this old guy with idea fixated in his head. Nothing can change his opinions,not even actual PAF officials. Move on.

Kid,

Paf officials have been lying to the country for the longest and you think that they are gods----open your eyes---.

 

[Informant]

Kid,

Paf officials have been lying to the country for the longest and you think that they are gods----open your eyes---.

Old man my team was on weapons testing integration of SD-10 in Gobi. I have a very clear knowledge of what PAF is doing or trying to hide. Now you have a hard on for all things French, US but not for Chinese.

Gone are the times of Chinese stuff not being equivalent, they are overtaking a lot of countries and that too fast. Are they the best? That has yet to be seen. Are they good enouh for our needs? Yes.

And please dont give me illogical and random "pharmaceutical" scenarios. I speak from experience, trust me Arabs with all the polished toys cant seem to match us with our lagging planes compared to them. Not because they suck but because we make the best out of what we got.

 

[MilSpec]

Hi,

How do I address you! Just because you have a new missile built today---you have no clue how it will handle when it is needed 5 years from now---. Your weapons systems have to perform at 100% capacity when they are needed every single time.

Let me ask you now---do you have a child --- a little baby---are you a father---baby is real sick---you get a prescription---the doctor says the condition is very serious---there is serious infection---it needs to be taken care of right away otherwise you may lose the baby---go to pharmacy----the pharmacist gives you an option---. He has the antibitotic made in the USA, made in switzerland made in china---you come from an all male family---all boys 6 of them---your baby is a little girl---first baby girl in your family---your parents---your brothers and yourself are beyond joy---she is the star of your eyes and everybody in the household----.

Make a choice and live with it for the rest of your life---. As I am a father---I can tell you---a mistake that you make---it haunts you the rest of your life.

I dont get the purpose of this post, I will use a drug that it FDA approved drug doesn't matter if it was made in china or India..thats what testing standards are there for, to assure performance of a system. the question here was testing standard...

In essence of your post, there was a time when japanese cars in US were considered junk... few years back same was said about Kia and hyundai... look at what is happening now....

The question here was pakistan looking for the best platform for the money or the the most optimal platform for their operational role of primarily defending Pakistani airspace... sure if they had deep pockets why not buy the eft or f35, , but on the given budget, and needed role, jf 17 would suffice and thats exactly what they have done... I dont see the need to call chinese subsystems b+ when there is not enough data to support any such speculations.


Coing back to your first paragraph,

"Just because you have a new missile built today---you have no clue how it will handle when it is needed 5 years from now---. Your weapons systems have to perform at 100% capacity when they are needed every single time"

this is exactly why you have extensive test protocols, for example for an air frame, the entire fuselage is induced static load beyond the safety limit and every stress concentration zone is evaluated for stress fractures, the wings of the system go through cyclic load upto 1.3 times the maximum deformation over a million times to simulate almost 10,000 to 12K hours of flight, although the actual life of might just be 8000 hrs. Similarly electronic subsystems are tested in batch orders to with sample size of 1000 units of relays to effectively switch on and off for 100,000 cycles and mil-std switch gear relays have reliability of over 99.46%. Similar protocol of testing is conducted for most of the subsystems... this is in general the test protocol that assures that missile that you referd to fires every time you press the red trigger.... hope that makes sense!

 

[AUz]

@MastanKhan

To replace F-7s, and old mirages, a decent 4th generation aircraft with BVR and stand off capability does the job, no?

Do you expect us to buy Eurofighters to replace F-7s en mass?

JF-17 is a superior aircraft than any indian counter part of his (Tejas, Mig-21 and so on)....

It will be inducted in huge numbers and will form the back bone of PAF...a backbone based on JF-17 Thunder is much stronger than one based on F-7s as currently is the case.

PAF lacks in the department of high-end heavy hitters...and this is where IAF has Su-30MKIs, and Mig 29s in big numbers...but the backbone of IAF is in worse condition than PAF's...

63 updated F-16s (block 52 level) does give atleast some punch to PAF's high-end force...but lack of funds has definitely long diminished the air superiority advance that PAF traditionally held over its adversary to the East.

 

[araz]

Excuse me!!
i understood a sh!t from that part .

Bhai it is the age old problem of stubby fingers on a phone keypad. I did correct my post but you saw it sooner than the correctionsy

Pardon me for my arrogance [/

I don't mind at all. There is no need to apologise. We are all posters who post based on their knowledge and that may differ. Too much of conformity is boring.

But i do support Mastan bhai's views sometime , it is not becoz he is unnecessarily criticizing the chinese system but for it's rationale views .He is a well wisher of Pakistan air force ,he wants the best for his country like a true patriot & nationalistic guy
should be.
Mastan Khan is a mixed bag of sweets and some are a bit too bitter for people's liking . But my grief with him is that he has no idea of the ground realities. That in my view is not rational thinking but emotional outbursts.It is that which I have a problem with. Otherwise everyone has a point of viewand I am the first to respect a different point of view..
I
U for instance have no idea how upset & angry the indian officials were with the french when they decided to sell avionics & MICA missiles for the JF 17 to the PAF . If they hadnt vetoed the deal the french would have been the 1st to be eliminated from
MMRCA


Bhai your Babus have a habit of having a gripe over everything and anything that Pakistan procures.You tried your best with the RD93 and failed. This is more strategic rather than a genuine upset. As to dropping the french the whole MMRCA setup was to get the french Rafale and produce conformity with the other M2Ks that you have. If you had rejected them on the basis of their provision of equipment to Pakistan then you would have been really foolish and the Babu is anything but foolish! !

MICA EM & IR combo is a very effective platform the PAF officials werent fools to have those systems on JF 17

Agreed but things move on and just because we could not procure a syatem doez not definitely mean that we chose a third rate system. Suffice it to say that the Chinese are fast catching up with the west and the quality of their equipment is improving leaps and bounds. One of the reasons for PAF changing its mind is the friendly rates and the opportunity to build the product and in house which cuts the costs further.
Our aim is self reliance and the French route to it is just too expensive for us to maintain. It is just like marrying a beautiful woman who has no other talent but her looks. You get fed up . You need an all rounder in your own league and the french are just too expensive for Pakistan to afford.


Thanks

but like i said earliear i dont want to get involve in JF 17 thread until & unless something legitimate intervention or opinion is required from my side
Thats fair enough but rest assursd whenever you present something rational it will be appreciated.
CHEERS

So now you have seen a different and more understandable point of view

 

[DrSomnath999]

The simple answer here is---your arch enemy created scenarios so that you could not get the french equipment---. Now remember that they did not care much when you were going for the grippens or the F16's----.

F 16 they had no control over---grippen was not worth the trouble---it was the rafale and its electronics and weapons package that they were after and the moment they dislodged you---they jumped on the wagon to make the deal after all the hoopla.

Now how important was the rafale deal to india---they snubbed the united states---the british and the swedes and to top it off the russians as well.

Use your brains guys---use your brains---.

Rafale had been the victim of bad rap---a pre programmed smear campaign by the british and the american defence industry.

hi MK

very well said. & really u got the point which i want to say but u indeed have to got brain to understand the logic why the IAF give high priority to french.

U forgot EF typhoon also - that is also damn costly for PAF .thatswhy IAF has nothing against EF to be afraid of .

Rafale is indeed had been the victim of bad rap

When your enemy has two of the best time tested and proven systems and you want to procure a hyped up system---whose only claim of fame is from the lab to the first aircraft that it can be installed on---there is not much to say. And to top it off---this was the only system left for paf to pursue---there was nothing else in the world that they could buy---.

BTW
what are those 2 of the best time tested systems are u reffering to??


CHEERS

 

[Chak Bamu]

@MastanKhan sahib,

1. Your analysis disregards Atomic weapons which are effective deterrents against wars. We are not about to jump into a war with India. Were it to happen, it would have happened post attacks in Delhi and Bombay. I do not believe a war is imminent, and beyond what we already spend on military items, there is hardly any need for more. Our planners understand this much and I appreciate and trust their ability to take Pakistan's economic situation into consideration. We shall go bankrupt if we try to match Indian defense spending.

2. You have often criticized PAF top brass for missing the chance to source effective and expensive gear. What happened in early '00s is history now. I do not know enough to endorse your views, but it is hardly relevant anymore. We have not had war, our most pressing problem is insurgency, militancy, energy problems, & economic stagnation. We are just beginning to be taken seriously by our allies. Expensive weapons systems are the last thing that should bother us at this point, particularly in reference to our very recent history.

3. If the chinese weapons are unknown unknowns, then that is good for us. As I remarked in an earlier post addressed to you: would Indians like to find out how effective are the Chinese systems? I am sure the answer is NO. War is to nobody's advantage; not China, not India, not Pakistan, nor anyone else. Only nutcases wish for it, and we have them well-capped for now.

4. I think the strategy to depend upon inflicting unacceptable losses has been effective. JF-17 effectively supports the strategy which has worked in our favor til now and likely in near future as well. As our economy improves we may revisit our strategy a few years from now, if needed.

5. The last matter of significance relating to our tussle with India over Kashmir was Musharraf's policy of allowing India to fence LOC in early '00s. That was an important moment of relative weakness, and I doubt PAF acquisitions then or later would have done anything to change it.

 

[Darth Vader]

@MastanKhan You have a habit of criticizing Others I just Want to know 1 thing Are you part of any Force ? or were you ever part of any ? if yes then we can keep discussing If its a no then elders have a habit of criticizing Gov without any reason or without any knowledge

 

[MastanKhan]

Old man my team was on weapons testing integration of SD-10 in Gobi. I have a very clear knowledge of what PAF is doing or trying to hide. Now you have a hard on for all things French, US but not for Chinese.

Gone are the times of Chinese stuff not being equivalent, they are overtaking a lot of countries and that too fast. Are they the best? That has yet to be seen. Are they good enouh for our needs? Yes.

And please dont give me illogical and random "pharmaceutical" scenarios. I speak from experience, trust me Arabs with all the polished toys cant seem to match us with our lagging planes compared to them. Not because they suck but because we make the best out of what we got.

Hi,

Welcome to the forum----. This line that the paf has 'we make the best of what we got'---does not hold water. If such was the case----india would have kowtowed to you by now and made peace----but otoh---india is desperately trying pakistan to retaliate so they can avail the oppurtunity to smash the country once for all.

Fighter air craft are part of the major weapons systems of a country---. If nobody has told you in PAF what purpose major weapons systems hold---then let me explain it to you---. Major weapons systems are procured or manufactured so that your primary enemy stops in tracks and thinks about the significance of the change in balance of power that it would bring in the arena---and at that stage the enemy would consider if it is benevolent to proceed further with aggression or step back---swallow the pride and make peace---or keep on towing the scr-ew you tone.

Well---looking at this project that has been hanging low---the enemy has shown no effect whatsoever---secondly---they have gone after the very same aircraft the the paf was interested in.

The IAF has forced a coupe de grace on paf---they have done to paf what should have been done by paf to iaf in the 80's if they had gone for the mirage 2k.

It is good for you that you are on the team in gobi doing what you are---but the bottomline is that if the enemy does not consider it as a major threat---then all your development don't mean diddly sh-it.

PAF has fooled the pakistanis in believing lies----.

Anyway---the discussion started with the french cancellation of the project and JF 17 !!!! My statement was that the cancellation has delayed the development of the project by 5 to 8 years at least----.

And that is what my problem with PAF is in fooling the public----. For them----time does not have any meaning at all. And why is that you pakistanis cannot understand that or comprehend what I am saying---because you are equally clueless to what that means.

In this discussion---if the reader had no concept of the "significance of time"---then this discussion is not for you---. You will not understand what I am saying---.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan You have a habit of criticizing Others I just Want to know 1 thing Are you part of any Force ? or were you ever part of any ? if yes then we can keep discussing If its a no then elders have a habit of criticizing Gov without any reason or without any knowledge

Kid,

I never criticize anyone---I offer / share solutions to issues in whatever sense they may be understood or not---. People who criticize have no solutions or suggestions---.

 

[Informant]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum----. This line that the paf has 'we make the best of what we got'---does not hold water. If such was the case----india would have kowtowed to you by now and made peace----but otoh---india is desperately trying pakistan to retaliate so they can avail the oppurtunity to smash the country once for all.

Fighter air craft are part of the major weapons systems of a country---. If nobody has told you in PAF what purpose major weapons systems hold---then let me explain it to you---. Major weapons systems are procured or manufactured so that your primary enemy stops in tracks and thinks about the significance of the change in balance of power that it would bring in the arena---and at that stage the enemy would consider if it is benevolent to proceed further with aggression or step back---swallow the pride and make peace---or keep on towing the scr-ew you tone.

Well---looking at this project that has been hanging low---the enemy has shown no effect whatsoever---secondly---they have gone after the very same aircraft the the paf was interested in.

The IAF has forced a coupe de grace on paf---they have done to paf what should have been done by paf to iaf in the 80's if they had gone for the mirage 2k.

It is good for you that you are on the team in gobi doing what you are---but the bottomline is that if the enemy does not consider it as a major threat---then all your development don't mean diddly sh-it.

PAF has fooled the pakistanis in believing lies----.

Anyway---the discussion started with the french cancellation of the project and JF 17 !!!! My statement was that the cancellation has delayed the development of the project by 5 to 8 years at least----.

And that is what my problem with PAF is in fooling the public----. For them----time does not have any meaning at all. And why is that you pakistanis cannot understand that or comprehend what I am saying---because you are equally clueless to what that means.

In this discussion---if the reader had no concept of the "significance of time"---then this discussion is not for you---. You will not understand what I am saying---.

I've said my peace.

 

[Kompromat]

 

[MastanKhan]

I've said my peace.

Sir,

This answer is not enough---. Why don't you discuss the strategy and the issue of time factor involved in this scenario---IF YOU HAVE THE KNOW HOW.

Most pakistani children don't understand what happens to these weapons when they are stored or exposed to environment over time---. Water leaks---moisturre leaks---freezing---thawing---extreme temperature---rust---oxidation---there is nothing that compares to the actual time---the actual weapon has been through---you need it 5 years from the date you got it---what chances are that it will fire effectively 99% of the time.

What chances are that the mother boards won't fry off---.

That is where the term 'time proven' factor comes in. Your bvr missiles have been flying on the wings for thousands of sorties---frozen and thawed---exposed to the elements---year in year out---you have seen the flaws---you have fixed the errors---the level of predictability has increased in multitude.

There are two major items---you ought to have the best you can get----your submarines and your fighter and air superiority aircraft.

And why is that---because in these two items---the error of forgiveness is miniscule---.

 

[Darth Vader]

Kid,

I never criticize anyone---I offer / share solutions to issues in whatever sense they may be understood or not---. People who criticize have no solutions or suggestions---.

But you didnt give me answer i asked something else ?

 

[khail007]

Sir,

This answer is not enough---. Why don't you discuss the strategy and the issue of time factor involved in this scenario---IF YOU HAVE THE KNOW HOW.

Most pakistani children don't understand what happens to these weapons when they are stored or exposed to environment over time---. Water leaks---moisturre leaks---freezing---thawing---extreme temperature---rust---oxidation---there is nothing that compares to the actual time---the actual weapon has been through---you need it 5 years from the date you got it---what chances are that it will fire effectively 99% of the time.

What chances are that the mother boards won't fry off---.

That is where the term 'time proven' factor comes in. Your bvr missiles have been flying on the wings for thousands of sorties---frozen and thawed---exposed to the elements---year in year out---you have seen the flaws---you have fixed the errors---the level of predictability has increased in multitude.

There are two major items---you ought to have the best you can get----your submarines and your fighter and air superiority aircraft.

And why is that---because in these two items---the error of forgiveness is miniscule---.

Dear Sir MK,

I m reading whatever u posting. It is a hell of information/ideas/advises etc. etc.; but I was thinking that could it be any impact on our status back home (Pakistan).

The critical matters are dealt in same way as before. After PNS Mehran, we didn't learn anything and PAF Kamrah happened, even our elite defense forces didn't learn anything which are far more better trained/disciplined/organized than civilians.

Could there be any better individual/party/institute/organization which could impact in a positive way on Pakistan. For example, what positive impact had happened on PA/PAF/PN thru PDF, I am curious to know if any.

It seems that we all are

Anxious to know your opinion that up to now what we have achieved.