JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Farooqi1]

Mr. Farooqi - There are ONLY TWO things that I agree with you, that is, the threat theater has increased beyond just the neighboring borders of India and second, F-16's have restrictions specially from an embargo / sanction's standpoint.

The rest, you seem like out of touch with reality. Let's dissect your own analysis.....let's assume we have the same numbers of jets that 'you'd rather have' compared to JFT & J10B's standard numbers about to be procured.
Do you REALLY think having the little jets that you are recommending, you'll threaten NATO or the US? Use your common sense. I am assuming you are an adult over 18. Even India or Russia in conventional conflict can't win with NATO. That's the reality.

Second, JFT & J10B are not pieces of junks. Whoever thinks that, is smoking stuff that may be considered illegal in all US states. PAF never procured JFT to fight the F22 or a fleet of NATO's air forces. It was a replacement for jets purchased 30 years ago. Tell you the truth, this jet can hold its own against anything non F 22 & F 35 class. Add some AESA and RCS reduction measures to it further and this becomes a credible problem for even NATO. But, PAF's doctrine is defensive in nature with limited offense capability. I'd like to see some stealthy features getting introduced, heavy engines, large SAMS & AESA.
JFT is actually superior to F-16 up to block 40. It matches a lot of things in Block 52 though. So it can hold it own without doubt.
Pak needs to have credible & proven deterrence (sanction proof) and work on economy and becoming a more moderate country like Malaysia & Indonesia. Economic expansion will let you build or buy anything!

Orangzaib Bhai:

I was just quoting another posters comment and was not suggesting that we are going to have a war with NATO or USA. Let us not get emotional about JFT. As a Pakistani I love it too. But we have to be realistic. There is nothing wrong being critical of own self. I am quoting you from above " Pak needs to have credible & proven deterrence (sanction proof) and work on economy and becoming a more moderate country like Malaysia & Indonesia" Now meray bhai is JFT or J10B is a credible and proven deterrence? As far as JFT superior then F-16 block 40 then I believe that is a stretch. I mean even PAF not even calling or claiming JFT as comparable to F-16. Bhai jaan waqat or hallat ko phechano. One opportunity is coming in the form of Russia even considering having a relationship with Pakistan. What is wrong in having a good close relationship with Russia and bring in some defense talks too. ? Let us get the most out of it. We have a threat from eastern side and we need to be ready. Our PAF is badly under equipped. Let us admit it and do something about it. Why can't we have SU 30 or SU 27? I know it is going to be expensive but at least Morals will be taken care off. I can't understand the policy of single engine aircrafts. Let us have some twine engine plans so that we can defend ourselves. I hope apki narazigi will end once you will think about it. All I want like you and most other Pakistanis to have a defense so that one could think twice even thinking of messing with us. I believe we can do it if we could realistically access the situation and without getting emotional. May Allah give us wisdom make the right decisions.

 

[Jango]

Orangzaib Bhai:

I was just quoting another posters comment and was not suggesting that we are going to have a war with NATO or USA. Let us not get emotional about JFT. As a Pakistani I love it too. But we have to be realistic. There is nothing wrong being critical of own self. I am quoting you from above " Pak needs to have credible & proven deterrence (sanction proof) and work on economy and becoming a more moderate country like Malaysia & Indonesia" Now meray bhai is JFT or J10B is a credible and proven deterrence? As far as JFT superior then F-16 block 40 then I believe that is a stretch. I mean even PAF not even calling or claiming JFT as comparable to F-16. Bhai jaan waqat or hallat ko phechano. One opportunity is coming in the form of Russia even considering having a relationship with Pakistan. What is wrong in having a good close relationship with Russia and bring in some defense talks too. ? Let us get the most out of it. We have a threat from eastern side and we need to be ready. Our PAF is badly under equipped. Let us admit it and do something about it. Why can't we have SU 30 or SU 27? I know it is going to be expensive but at least Morals will be taken care off. I can't understand the policy of single engine aircrafts. Let us have some twine engine plans so that we can defend ourselves. I hope apki narazigi will end once you will think about it. All I want like you and most other Pakistanis to have a defense so that one could think twice even thinking of messing with us. I believe we can do it if we could realistically access the situation and without getting emotional. May Allah give us wisdom make the right decisions.

Although your post is meant for orangzaib, I would like tO say a few things from my limited knowledge.

Point one is that a deal with Russia of any sorts will take some time and cost. Reason being that PAF has not had any expErience with Rissian jets. The cockpit layouts, the maintenance, everything is different from western systems. And Russia would experience heavy lObbying from India.

Second point is that the JF has gone too far to abandon it , and call it a fail and sit with your hands on your laps. I suggest you take a look at the thunder threads on this very forums, and you will get a plethora of information from the posts of other well informed members and think tanks. LERX, DSi, radar, cockpit environment, avionics and much more gives thunder a very good package. And you must not forget that he thunder is still in it's early stages, and I still has too much room to improve, composites, avionics, radar, engine etc.

So the thunder might not be in the league of Rafale yet, but it fulfills the requirment of the PAF gery well , which was to replace the fleet of A-5, F-7 and other old aircraft. It was meant to be an aircraft not too heavy on the pocket, but at the same time pack a punch. And also give experience to the Pakistani aviation industry.

We are not meant to fight a war against the US, or NATO, keeping in mind our opponents, the thunder is a very capable platform from early lOoks and still has lots of room to improve.

 

[Farooqi1]

Hi Mr. Farooqi, kindly please think through your posts before posting them. The "product mix" you have proposed for the PAF would be unsustainable from a simple maintenance dimension. Second, the PAF does not have the budget to support such a diverse and expensive fleet. Lastly, in the current politcal scenario, other than China no one else will sell Pakistan any high tech aircraft.

Ang:

I am getting the expected responses. May Allah keep you all happy and safe. Russia will sell us. besides that PAF is going to spent $3 to 5 Billion as per their website on JFT. We could easily have 100 JFT plus 36,36,36 aircrafts I have suggested. And of course I could be wrong but I have spent last month and a half after my trip back home in researching about JFT and F-16 and J10B. All I can request that bhayoo hallat ko pehchano and grab this opportunity of Putins visit to Pakistan. Let us get some of more capable planes so that we could have air superiority just in case if the situation demand. Think waht i am saying without getting emotional.

 

[Farooqi1]

Although your post is meant for orangzaib, I would like tO say a few things from my limited knowledge.

Point one is that a deal with Russia of any sorts will take some time and cost. Reason being that PAF has not had any expErience with Rissian jets. The cockpit layouts, the maintenance, everything is different from western systems. And Russia would experience heavy lObbying from India.

Second point is that the JF has gone too far to abandon it , and call it a fail and sit with your hands on your laps. I suggest you take a look at the thunder threads on this very forums, and you will get a plethora of information from the posts of other well informed members and think tanks. LERX, DSi, radar, cockpit environment, avionics and much more gives thunder a very good package. And you must not forget that he thunder is still in it's early stages, and I still has too much room to improve, composites, avionics, radar, engine etc.

So the thunder might not be in the league of Rafale yet, but it fulfills the requirment of the PAF gery well , which was to replace the fleet of A-5, F-7 and other old aircraft. It was meant to be an aircraft not too heavy on the pocket, but at the same time pack a punch. And also give experience to the Pakistani aviation industry.

We are not meant to fight a war against the US, or NATO, keeping in mind our opponents, the thunder is a very capable platform from early lOoks and still has lots of room to improve.

Yaar

I am not suggesting that we should abandon JFT project or start a war against NATO or US. I agree with you it would take a lot to have Russian defense deal to go through but in my opinion time is right. And i also believe we could afford to have some high tech inventory. And as far as PAF is concerned (which I am in love with) we are way behind. A lot of things I can not write on this forum.

 

[Beast]

Orangzaib Bhai:

I was just quoting another posters comment and was not suggesting that we are going to have a war with NATO or USA. Let us not get emotional about JFT. As a Pakistani I love it too. But we have to be realistic. There is nothing wrong being critical of own self. I am quoting you from above " Pak needs to have credible & proven deterrence (sanction proof) and work on economy and becoming a more moderate country like Malaysia & Indonesia" Now meray bhai is JFT or J10B is a credible and proven deterrence? As far as JFT superior then F-16 block 40 then I believe that is a stretch. I mean even PAF not even calling or claiming JFT as comparable to F-16.

PAF indeed compare JF-17 to F-16. It's handling is better, more user friendly cockpit layout. It's radar is even better than BLK 15/20. Equal to blk 40. Early F-16 don't even have BVRAAM capabilities. While yr JF-17 can fire BVRAAM, JADM and anti ship missile.

All this are quote by the pilot who flown F-16 before and convert to JF-17. Even chief of Airforce of PAF echo the same word too. Check out this thread and the previous post. Read more...

Nobody is getting emotion here.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are not going to make many friends over here.

You have to believe Gripens-Sukhios are Flying all across with-in tiny-small african-non african nations But You are been fed with can't cope with the Technology have no funds and going after a similar platform that offers same that Vipers are offering But hopefully things would be atleast better in coming years.

Lets not lose hope lets wait for that someday someone will swing that magic wand and make our economy better so we can pick and choose.

Hehn,

Amazing isn't it---here on one side---paf brags about its man behind the machine---pakistani pilots are the world's best---. PAF is full of so many lies--it is as usual living in a world of its own---.

 

[pshamim]

Farooqi Saheb,

I will neither argue nor attack your ideas. They may be very good but thinking that Russia will dump India and provide front line aircrafts to Pakistan. The one opportunity Pakistan ever had to acquire Russian aircrafts was in 1994 but they used the possibility of acquiring them to pressure France. I see no possibility of it happening now but unable to predict the future. If a relationship is created, it will through small steps like Russia allowing the export of improved RD-93 and permiting AL-31F engine for FC-20s. If that happens, I can see a possibility of even J-11Bs in PAF inventory.

One other thing that we forget that acquisition of JF-17s is not just an introduction of a capable aircraft into the PAF but also gives us a sence of freedom from others mischief and also a confidence that we can always build upon it and make it better. I think that considering JF-17 and J-10B a piece of junk belies the facts and shows ignorance.

let us hope that we see these small steps taken during Putin's visit.

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzaib Bhai:

I was just quoting another posters comment and was not suggesting that we are going to have a war with NATO or USA. Let us not get emotional about JFT.

Now meray bhai is JFT or J10B is a credible and proven deterrence? As far as JFT superior then F-16 block 40 then I believe that is a stretch. I mean even PAF not even calling or claiming JFT as comparable to F-16.
What is wrong in having a good close relationship with Russia and bring in some defense talks too. ?
Why can't we have SU 30 or SU 27? I know it is going to be expensive but at least Morals will be taken care off. I can't understand the policy of single engine aircrafts. Let us have some twine engine plans so that we can defend ourselves.
All I want like you and most other Pakistanis to have a defense so that one could think twice even thinking of messing with us. I believe we can do it if we could realistically access the situation and without getting emotional. May Allah give us wisdom make the right decisions.

Alright Mr. Farooqi bhai. Again, I disagree with your post above and I've picked selected portions above to respond to, from your post.

- No one's emotional here. The implication of 'war with Nato' came from your post where you compared lack of capability in JFT.
- Is F 22 or JSF a proven system against any high end jet or to really establish air superiority??? No, both of these are not war proven and each plane costs 160 - 200+ USD. Similarly JFT and J10B are not war proven BUT they've been extensively tested against top Russian and American aircraft (Chinese SU 27-30, Pak F 16 & Mirages, etc). So the capability exist, only war tested part's missing and I hope that never happens as wars kill humans and that's not right, especially when both Indian & Pak have innocent poor people who just want to provide for their families and seek a better future!
- No one said a word against relationships with Russia. If you read my other posts, I think I've mentioned it many times that we MUST maintain great relationships with US, Russia, China & even India. The situation Pak's in is mainly due to stupid policies and corrupt leaders who don't or can't represent country in front of others.
- Unlike China & USA, Russia won't give you soft loans for jets. You'll need money and that comes from educated workforce and a strong economy. That's what's missing here. I think PAF should definitely induct a few squadrons of J11. That'll be easier to maintain than Russian SU-30 as the infrastructure is China & US hardware repair focused.
- The policy of single engine aircraft is to keep larger numbers of combat ready aircraft that are less financial burden from a maintenance and readiness standpoint. Within Pakistani airspace, each sector can cover it's geography within 3 minutes post take off. Plus, the concept is that the next battle will be within Pakistani airspace so you wouldn't need a lot of twin engine heavy jets. You'll need small, agile jets able to move around quick and pack a bvr / wvr punch. However, PN needs twin turbines and PAF can def benefit from it. But money matters!!
- Pakistan needs to normalize its relations with everyone based on its interests and end silly policies like crap made in Msuhy & Zardari's time and present its interests in a valid and productive way to others. Pakistan is a nuclear state so no one will try to mess with it anyway unless something really stupid happens and I pray that that day will never come!
If your leaders are sincere, people are moderate and respectful towards others, the world will work with you and Pakistan will become like Malaysia or Indonesia or Turkey!!

 

[Jango]

Yaar

I am not suggesting that we should abandon JFT project or start a war against NATO or US. I agree with you it would take a lot to have Russian defense deal to go through but in my opinion time is right. And i also believe we could afford to have some high tech inventory. And as far as PAF is concerned (which I am in love with) we are way behind. A lot of things I can not write on this forum.

Russia will not sell us frontline equipment in the near future due to obvious reasons.

A little bit of dealing here and there will most probably happen, but nothing major.

 

[ziaulislam]

if you have the money every country will sell you. from money i mean big money ..
so if we can hand over 10-12 billion dollars we can get every fighter be it Russian or European..but we cant do that of course.

so real thing to see is the economics of fighter these days

 

[Luftwaffe]

if you have the money every country will sell you. from money i mean big money ..
so if we can hand over 10-12 billion dollars we can get every fighter be it Russian or European..but we cant do that of course.

so real thing to see is the economics of fighter these days

sir, you need to be smart, $10-12B is insanity and foolishness, you want to play, play it good instead of 126 fighter get technologically superior in good numbers not necessarily in huge numbers, block something to your opponent needs, so that They are unable to procure it. Point is and always will be had you procured 36 Rafales, It would have been out of mrca and so JFT 2-3 squadrons would have been equipped with French Technologies...blow to your opponent, Highly capable Rafale teamed up with force multiplier JFT and relative better equipment, that mrca would have become a Trash.

There is no such thing as economic fighter, the technology is going further and faster you need to compete with it or you lose it all, what is MLU? that is what JFT would be getting in Years to come and gone are the days of MLU after 10 Years it would be in short span to keep up with technology-opponents, the cost will go up and you'll spend more, in the west their psyche they build something 10 years ahead.

 

[Pak47]

Sqn Ldr (then Flt Lt) Hussain Shaheed during his service with No.9 Sqn. On Nov 17, 2011 he lost his life in an unfortunate JF-17 accident near Kamra, Attock.

May his soul rest in PEACE AMEEN ...

 

[Farooqi1]

Alright Mr. Farooqi bhai. Again, I disagree with your post above and I've picked selected portions above to respond to, from your post.

- No one's emotional here. The implication of 'war with Nato' came from your post where you compared lack of capability in JFT.
- Is F 22 or JSF a proven system against any high end jet or to really establish air superiority??? No, both of these are not war proven and each plane costs 160 - 200+ USD. Similarly JFT and J10B are not war proven BUT they've been extensively tested against top Russian and American aircraft (Chinese SU 27-30, Pak F 16 & Mirages, etc). So the capability exist, only war tested part's missing and I hope that never happens as wars kill humans and that's not right, especially when both Indian & Pak have innocent poor people who just want to provide for their families and seek a better future!
- No one said a word against relationships with Russia. If you read my other posts, I think I've mentioned it many times that we MUST maintain great relationships with US, Russia, China & even India. The situation Pak's in is mainly due to stupid policies and corrupt leaders who don't or can't represent country in front of others.
- Unlike China & USA, Russia won't give you soft loans for jets. You'll need money and that comes from educated workforce and a strong economy. That's what's missing here. I think PAF should definitely induct a few squadrons of J11. That'll be easier to maintain than Russian SU-30 as the infrastructure is China & US hardware repair focused.
- The policy of single engine aircraft is to keep larger numbers of combat ready aircraft that are less financial burden from a maintenance and readiness standpoint. Within Pakistani airspace, each sector can cover it's geography within 3 minutes post take off. Plus, the concept is that the next battle will be within Pakistani airspace so you wouldn't need a lot of twin engine heavy jets. You'll need small, agile jets able to move around quick and pack a bvr / wvr punch. However, PN needs twin turbines and PAF can def benefit from it. But money matters!!
- Pakistan needs to normalize its relations with everyone based on its interests and end silly policies like crap made in Msuhy & Zardari's time and present its interests in a valid and productive way to others. Pakistan is a nuclear state so no one will try to mess with it anyway unless something really stupid happens and I pray that that day will never come!
If your leaders are sincere, people are moderate and respectful towards others, the world will work with you and Pakistan will become like Malaysia or Indonesia or Turkey!!

Orangzaib

It does not matter how many JFT we would have. If it can't compete with SU 30 or Rafale then they would be useles. There is hell lot of difference between 2.2 Mach and 1.8 Mach. Hell lot of diference in a 9mm Glock and a Machine gun. If we have 10 machine guns and other opponent has 20 machine guns then technique and trainning and Jazba may count. If JFT can't see or catch SU 30 or Rafale then how it is going to defend. So idea of having large no. of JFTs in my humble opnion is not going to work. 100 JFTs would be good with J10B and J11B.


Now I agree with you that we need to be moderate and modernize. Yes I agree with you that there should not be any wars. But sometimes wars are thrusted upon you like when USSR invaded Afghanistan.

As far as Russia would not give us loan but atleast we could try. Remember it was Putin who intervene and let the RD93 deal go through. I beleive Putin may be softening his approach towards Pakistan and I beleive timing is right for us to maximize the benefits of Putins visit.(if it happnes).

At least you agree with me for J11 and I don't know what is stopping us from acquiring them.

 

[Farooqi1]

Farooqi Saheb,

I will neither argue nor attack your ideas. They may be very good but thinking that Russia will dump India and provide front line aircrafts to Pakistan. The one opportunity Pakistan ever had to acquire Russian aircrafts was in 1994 but they used the possibility of acquiring them to pressure France. I see no possibility of it happening now but unable to predict the future. If a relationship is created, it will through small steps like Russia allowing the export of improved RD-93 and permiting AL-31F engine for FC-20s. If that happens, I can see a possibility of even J-11Bs in PAF inventory.

One other thing that we forget that acquisition of JF-17s is not just an introduction of a capable aircraft into the PAF but also gives us a sence of freedom from others mischief and also a confidence that we can always build upon it and make it better. I think that considering JF-17 and J-10B a piece of junk belies the facts and shows ignorance.

let us hope that we see these small steps taken during Putin's visit.

PShamim Sahib thanks for respecting me.

I don't beleive Russia will dump India. But I do beleive India is dumping Russia. Look at their lattest deal. Rafale and Appachies and I think it is going to hurt Russian defense industry. Opportunities like Putins visit don't come along often. We need to jump on it.

 

[VelocuR]

PShamim Sahib thanks for respecting me.

I don't beleive Russia will dump India. But I do beleive India is dumping Russia. Look at their lattest deal. Rafale and Appachies and I think it is going to hurt Russian defense industry. Opportunities like Putins visit don't come along often. We need to jump on it.

Pakistan always has been jump to US's F-16s, now China's products (copy/paste), and then Russia?

No, we need to develop own machines instead rely on other countries.