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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Increment in internal fuel should not be a problem as 200 kg of additional fuel space was available by the introduction of DSI during prototype stage, with additional composite in coming batches, reduced weight will make more space for additional internal fuel.

200Kg is not much, especiall not to replace an external fuel tank. Gripen NG increased the internal fuel around 40% and replacing metal parts with composites parts reduces weight, but don't increase space for internal fuel tanks, besides that the addition is limited afterwards.


Yes it is Cobham made for Gripen and in this case foe JFT, thanks for correction. But, the reason i gave these pics/ info is because you raised the question of "retractable probe", now it seems you are changing direction, as expected. Anyway, I understand your logic, nothing is reliable no matter how many pics, sources come from us. Take it or leave it. It will not change the reality.

That's what I asked:

What happened to the Swedish refuelling probe that would be added by the end of last year?

So who is really changing direction? A pic of the probe displayed on a show doesn't mean that it was procured and tested like you said, that's why I asked for a source about it, seems reasonable to me.
 
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So who is really changing direction? A pic of the probe displayed on a show doesn't mean that it was procured and tested like you said, that's why I asked for a source about it, seems reasonable to me

does it really matter where we get the probe from? the probe on the ROSE Mirages is from where?
 
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Since the subject is about internal fuel and its hoped for increase whenever possible, some basic knowledge would be helpful...

For an aircraft design like a jet fighter where fuselage internal volume is maximized for fuel, it is not as simple to increase internal fuel just because some methods increased internal volume space. The engine is fed straight from fuselage tanks and as fuel leave these tanks, outer (not external) fuel sources are transferred inward to replace departing fuselage fuel.

Fuel management specialists prefers the word 'outer' over 'external' even if we are talking about hanging wing tanks. Fuel management specialists are people that us regular folks most likely will never meet in our lives, but their effects are always present during the design stages of a fighter aircraft. Often, they can veto a concept before it is even modeled. For these people, the word 'internal' mean inside a container, such as a fuselage bladder/tank or a hanging wing tank or the wing itself. The words 'inner' and 'outer' are preferred because they are directional in the various fuel management schemes. So if a wing has several discrete tanks that are physically separated by walls, the tank closest to the fuselage is 'inner' and the rest are 'outer'. If the wing itself is one continuous fuel tank, then the wing itself is 'outer'. If there are hanging wing tanks, then they are even more 'outer'. But these people will tolerate us regular folks if we use 'internal' and 'external'.

Anyway...The scheme's intention here is to reduce the physical effects of sloshing fuel inside a container, which in this case is the fuel tank itself. For a hanging wing fuel tank, not only will we have a mass but we also have a liquid mass in motion while the aircraft is maneuvering and that could create all sorts of performance issues -- usually negative. So because we have an aircraft that is designed to carry at most two human beings, to be rapidly maneuverable, and there is the need to keep mechanical items to a minimum, this fuel management scheme was deemed to be the best. To refuel, the reverse occurs: the fuel management system will transfer fuel from inner (fuselage) to outer tanks, if there are hanging wing tanks, they will be filled first, then internal wing tanks, then fuselage tanks last.

Not only there are negative physical effects of sloshing fuel, we have a phenomenon called 'hydraulic jumps' when a liquid is in motion inside a container and the greater the ratio of empty space to liquid inside this container, the greater the potentiality of 'hydraulic jumps'...

Dynamic hydraulic jumps in oscillating containers
When the liquid in a tank undergoes sudden movement, as in the case of a fuel tank in an aircraft or in a marine vessel, it may be subjected to as many as 6 degrees of freedom.

It has been found that under such motions, typical of those obtained within the flight envelope of military, private and commercial aircraft, a dynamic hydraulic jump can occur.
So...If we have these 'hydraulic jumps' we will also have greater the potentiality of fuel-air vapor being formed, which can result in the 'you-know-what' effect...

Aircraft Fire Protection
Recent articles in the Air Force Times discussed the change from JP-4 to JP-8 fuel. As one of the major proponents for the change and the co-author of the following document citing many of the safety reasons for the change, I would like to shed additional light on this subject. In the report (AFAPL-TR-74-71) titled, "Assessment of JP-8 as a Replacement Fuel for the Air Force Standard Jet Fuel JP-4," June 1975, factors including fuel properties, aircraft vulnerability, aircraft crash fires, fuel system and aircraft performance, fuel handling, maintenance, and environmental impact were addressed related to the fuel change. By the mid 1990s most Air Force bases changed over to JP-8 with resulting reductions in aircraft mishaps and damage caused by fuel combustion as the initial cause or as a secondary effect.

6. The fuel/air vapor in the ullage of the TWA flight 800 center wing tank was flammable at the time of the accident.

7. A fuel/air explosion in the center wing tank of TWA flight 800 would have been capable of generating sufficient internal pressure to break apart the tank.
That is not saying this is what caused the TWA 800 disaster but only the implication that such an effect, if it did happened, would have contributed to the severity of the disaster. The higher the volatility of the fuel, the greater the blast strength of a fuel-air vapor explosion -- thanks to the 'hydraulic jumps' phenomenon that created that mixture in the first place. The 'hydraulic jumps' phenomenon was an obvious life-threatening concern for the Space Shuttle because of the nature of the fuel and the radical change in environment: gravity to weightlessness and back to gravity again.

Tank geometry will contribute to this 'hydraulic jumps' phenomenon. The greater the departure from ideal shapes such as squared or rectangular cubes, the greater the phenomenon during violent maneuvers, which increases the odds of creating said dangerous fuel-air vapor mixture. The proper phrase here 'ignition vulnerability' and fuel volatility, as shown of the difference from JP-4 to JP-8, increases said vulnerability.

Aircraft Fuel Tank Inerting .: Nitrogen generators .: Nitrogen Generation .: Oxygen generator .: Oxygen Generation .: Gas Generation Systems .: Onsite Gas Systems Inc.
For years, nitrogen has been used to inert the headspace in combat aircraft fuel tanks. In 1996, the crash of TWA flight 800 brought the issue of explosive fuel vapors to the forefront for commercial aviation as well. Early on in the development of the OBIGGS (On-Board Inert Gas Generation System), On Site Gas engineers worked with a number of companies, and the FAA, to determine the best method for inerting the empty tanks of commercial aircraft.
A fuel tank inerting system increases overall weight and complexity for the aircraft, as in 'just another thing we have to fret over and work on'. An increase in fuel tank capacity will require an increase in the inerting agent.

This is not to discourage anyone from believing that the JF-17's internal fuel capacity cannot be increased, only that this is important knowledge for the laymen to think about when discussing these things of interests. Certainly the JF-17's internal fuel can be increased, but if possible, it will done with care with the above life-threatening factors considered. I would rather be downed by an enemy weapon than by my own faulty designed or supposedly 'improved' aircraft.

The best way to improve fuel economy in a small aircraft is to reduce weight, specifically NON-FUEL RELATED mass. We want to give the same quantity of fuel less mass to motivate throughout all flying conditions and maneuvers. This means reexamining the current design with new technology to see if we can trim some fat here and there with care taken to see how this would affect fuel quantity and its management.

If we increase internal volume thanks to composites and restructuring, do we fill that volume with fuel or with superior avionics? Increased fuel quantity that will motivate a lower aircraft mass sounds attractive, but so would the argument that the same fuel quantity to motivate a lower aircraft mass but with superior avionics. One option will give us greater range only. The other option will give us not as great an increase in range but also an increase in combat lethality. Keep in mind that avionics mass is constant mass while fuel is decreasing mass.

Who wants to be in the chair to make the final decision and take any possible blame if something goes wrong?
 
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Good points in the post above. As noted above, as a fuel tank is consumed in operational use, three factors arise: firstly, sloshing of the remaining liquid in the tank,then build up of vapour and change in statical/dynamical stability. All of these get aggravated tremendously due to violent movements. My knowledge of this phenomenon in aircraft is limited. However, I am very familiar with this in the marine field; so much so that I have had the opportunity to inspect oil/fuel tanks on ships that were (unbelievably) damaged to their internal members due to sloshing. That said; vapour build-up in marine tanks is (somewhat) lesser than in aircraft due to the fuel being of higher flash-point. But the other effects are similar.
 
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^^^
Good points in the post above. As noted above, as a fuel tank is consumed in operational use, three factors arise: firstly, sloshing of the remaining liquid in the tank,then build up of vapour and change in statical/dynamical stability. All of these get aggravated tremendously due to violent movements. My knowledge of this phenomenon in aircraft is limited. However, I am very familiar with this in the marine field; so much so that I have had the opportunity to inspect oil/fuel tanks on ships that were (unbelievably) damaged to their internal members due to sloshing. That said; vapour build-up in marine tanks is (somewhat) lesser than in aircraft due to the fuel being of higher flash-point. But the other effects are similar.
Not as limited you think. All you have to do is multiply them by 100, especially in the rolling maneuvers. Worst conditions to create these destructive forces is when the aircraft is in a roll and that maneuver is suddenly halted, and we see that enough in airshows when these demonstration teams do their stuff. The fuel was being held in place by centrifugal force then all of a sudden that force is gone. Inside large fuselage tanks are 'fuel quantity probes' and they can be as long as a meter.

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/standards/Army_D_Model_AQC_Classes/Fuel_System.pdf

The above source is for the Army's CH-47 Chinook helo but on page 17 there is an excellent photo of what a capacitive fuel quantity probe look like for aviation fuel management system. Inside a fighter aircraft fuel tank, the physical forces created by sloshing fuel hitting any probe can break it if it is not well designed and properly secured. Everything inside a fuel tank must be correctly torqued to specs and these figures are well researched and tested. People have little idea on how powerful liquids are when in violent motions in a container.
 
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Not as limited you think. All you have to do is multiply them by 100, especially in the rolling maneuvers. Worst conditions to create these destructive forces is when the aircraft is in a roll and that maneuver is suddenly halted, and we see that enough in airshows when these demonstration teams do their stuff. The fuel was being held in place by centrifugal force then all of a sudden that force is gone. Inside large fuselage tanks are 'fuel quantity probes' and they can be as long as a meter.

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/standards/Army_D_Model_AQC_Classes/Fuel_System.pdf

The above source is for the Army's CH-47 Chinook helo but on page 17 there is an excellent photo of what a capacitive fuel quantity probe look like for aviation fuel management system. Inside a fighter aircraft fuel tank, the physical forces created by sloshing fuel hitting any probe can break it if it is not well designed and properly secured. Everything inside a fuel tank must be correctly torqued to specs and these figures are well researched and tested. People have little idea on how powerful liquids are when in violent motions in a container.

Just to illustrate that point; I have inspected a Center cargo oil tank on a 300,000 DWT Super-Tanker where 3 deep transverse girders (of approx. 12 ft height and 35 mm thick steel plate) had buckled due to 'sloshing' and had to be renewed. The Dynamic forces on a 'free-surface' liquid in a fast manoeuvering jet are likely to be very high. And consequently, the potential damage will be high as well.

BTW, thanks for the info on the Chinook helo fuel system, rather informative in its content.
 
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Su 30 MKI Fuel System Hal Ppt Presentation

Slide 13 is an illustration of how a capacitive fuel quantity probe system works. The fuel level is the dielectric while the surface amount that it covers of the long inner/outer tube assembly create the capacitor container itself. On the F-16, the wing probes are about 1-3 inches. But the C-5 Galaxy's fuselage probes...Taller than YOU...The reader.
 
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In the case of the F-16.. the CFT's drain into the internal tanks...so they can be considered inner+ tanks.
Is such a solution viable for the JF..
There is a solution for the slushing(at the expense of weight) available for the Superhornet.. and the rafale as well.
But for a light fighter.. is that really suitable.
 
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Effect of centripetal forces on ullage...
amazingly no bubbles are formed...evidence of a very high flash point liquid...such as oil
The 'hydraulic jumps' phenomenon was an obvious life-threatening concern for the Space Shuttle because of the nature of the fuel and the radical change in environment: gravity to weightlessness and back to gravity again.
remedied by a Russian invention
Ullage motor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The higher the volatility of the fuel, the greater the blast strength of a fuel-air vapor explosion -- thanks to the 'hydraulic jumps' phenomenon that created that mixture in the first place.
Another enemy instigating vapour formation (in a moving liquid) are discontinuities in the inner lining of tanks; such as a rough surface or sharp corners such as squared tank
 
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In the case of the F-16.. the CFT's drain into the internal tanks...so they can be considered inner+ tanks.
Is such a solution viable for the JF..
There is a solution for the slushing(at the expense of weight) available for the Superhornet.. and the rafale as well.
But for a light fighter.. is that really suitable.
CFTs are still considered 'outer' tanks because they feed the fuselage mains, just like the others. Anything that feed the fuselage mains, it is an 'outer' tank. There is a feed rate that is monitored and governed by the fuel management system to ensure that each CFT feed is synchronous with its companion to prevent any weight imbalance stresses on the aircraft's hull. Just like how the wing tanks are monitored and governed to prevent fuel related weight imbalance on the wing root. We already have to deal with asymmetric ordnance load in many situations, no need to introduce fuel related issues if we can eliminate them. Fuel is a decreasing mass but its loss rate is highly predictable and controllable. Ordnance mass is considered 'radical' because if we drop 500kg, it is a sudden loss compared to a gradual consumption of 500kg of liquid.

Is CFT possible for the JF-17? Only the manufacturer can answer that. It may be that the design is so finite that CFT is not possible. But then again, no one expected the small F-16 to have CFTs either but if we look at the tank's shaping, we can see that a lot of wind tunnel work was done to ensure that each tank will have no adverse aerodynamics on the aircraft itself.

There were a lot of talks about General Dynamics creating a new version of the F-16 using modern composites. The idea was not about creating 'blocs' but about retaining the overall shape and using modern composites as much as possible to reduce weight. It would be as if GD was proposing to the DoD a brand new aircraft that just happened to look like the 'old' F-16. The F-18 Super Hornet is something in that line but different in that it is a much larger aircraft than the older model. The idea never got beyond the discussion stage, but then again, we should understand that there will always be ideas floating around in these brainstorming sessions. Some practical and some can be quite wild.

From a flight controls and weapons avionics standpoint, I prefer structural mass related weight reduction measures over increasing fuel quantity for improving fuel economy. The CFTs are not exactly 'band-aid' solutions because a 'band-aid' implies there is something 'wrong' with the current system. There is nothing wrong with the F-15 or the F-16 to require CFTs. The idea is just an improvement over the hanging wing tanks which create unique issues of their own. Reducing structural mass related weight would require much more work in the line of manufacturing a brand new aircraft.
 
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So guys, sorry for distraction but I have an clearer version of 'JFT DREAM'.

pafzhuhai20104.jpg
 
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And dreams which are only to come true.. JFT-Block-1 was once a similar dream.. now after 6 years down the road, we are able to expand our horizons. I can see the day when there will be a dream of Complete Stealth and VTOL JFT and some of us will still be saying the same ''Dreams are Dreams" :)

We have come a long way and milestones which seem ahead will be rached at their time. Have faith :pakistan: :china:
 
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