JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Thorough Pro]

No worries, keep cool,stay happy.

Thorough Bhai...aaap maar leiiin mujheee ! Hum ghustaakh tou aaab aap ki reprimand ki wajaa seh zindagaii seh beezaar ho gaii hain !

 

[Armstrong]

Thanks but I hope you are at least 48 YO to call me a son............. btw here again we are dependant on Russia for engines.......... and it does not address part shortage in case of any future sanctions on F16's

Actually it does address the shortage thing because the JF-17 is going to be the work-horse of our air-force & at that a very capable platform to have. Whereas the F-16s are going to be the Upper Tier of the PAF which means we can time apportion their usage accordingly & let the JF-17s take over many of the duties we were forced to use our F-16s in previously because even the PGs didn't provide those capabilities. And besides I'm sure the PAF bought the Block 52s & the MLUed Kits keeping in mind US sanctions looming over us Post-2014 so they must have an alternative in mind - Perhaps the TAI (the ones who MLUed them) don't have to get US approval to supply to us ! Perhaps our network to supply us parts under the table has grown ! Perhaps we're looking to cannibalize some F-16s in the future or perhaps we bought some extra spares along the way !

 

[itaskol]

where is this photo been taken?
why there is a J11 in this photo?

 

[Junaid-Phoenix]

are they sparring with the J 11 ?

 

[Edevelop]

How come we never see F-16s along with them ?

 

[Arsalan]

Never Mind.

 

[Arsalan]

Unless the missile even whilst being supersonic in its flight path to the target is sea skimming/low level, it is likely to be an easier intercept than the incoming subsonic AshM's - as they are necessarily low level flights.

This is because supersonic missiles have a higher detection range compare to subsonic ones on account of higher IR and visual signature.
So if this missile is not flying at sea wave height, chances of detection is higher during the flight path. And it makes for an easier intercept. This much is certain. This is because IN is fielding fleet air defence SAM"s and not just point defence SAM's.
This means that the missile gets engaged before it enters its terminal maneuvers.

And if the missile is indeed more complex than what the reports posted here imply, then it would mean that if the missile is not intercepted during its mid flight range and reaches its terminal maneuver range, then it gets tougher to intercept for SAM's as the flight path then cannot be easily determined.
This part however as you said remains to be seen.

It is not meant to be a AShM. SOM and AShM have different requirements thus different flight path.
Same can be said for Brahmos

 

[Last Hope]

How come we never see F-16s along with them ?

F-16s are not allowed to visit China for fear of ToT.

 

[Windjammer]

where is this photo been taken?
why there is a J11 in this photo?

This was a photo shoot when J-11s visited Pakistan for a joint exercise called Shaheen- 1.

 

[fatman17]

Actually it does address the shortage thing because the JF-17 is going to be the work-horse of our air-force & at that a very capable platform to have. Whereas the F-16s are going to be the Upper Tier of the PAF which means we can time apportion their usage accordingly & let the JF-17s take over many of the duties we were forced to use our F-16s in previously because even the PGs didn't provide those capabilities. And besides I'm sure the PAF bought the Block 52s & the MLUed Kits keeping in mind US sanctions looming over us Post-2014 so they must have an alternative in mind - Perhaps the TAI (the ones who MLUed them) don't have to get US approval to supply to us ! Perhaps our network to supply us parts under the table has grown ! Perhaps we're looking to cannibalize some F-16s in the future or perhaps we bought some extra spares along the way !

spares, spares, spares - PAF is now doing this as a policy. they even ordered US75m worth of spares recently through DSCA.

 

[Najam Khan]

where is this photo been taken?
why there is a J11 in this photo?

BTW its SU-27UBK.

How come we never see F-16s along with them ?

Because the exercise was themed for non-US aircraft in PAF. Because F-16s have strict restrictions on 'terms of use' since the initiation of MLU and Bk52 projects.

Why didn't we try going the Iranian way & tried to reverse engineer what we could ? Granted that 'reverse engineering' entails a lot more than the 2 term word bellies but surely coming up with something would have been better than nothing !

Sorry off the topic...but such bold attempts means that the doors of getting embargoed weapons or any such new weapon deal/modernization will close forever. Iran changed its foreign policy and decided never to look back. They had political and economical stability (to some extent) and common opinion of masses in favour of the Govt. Can Pakistanis unite on one thing like them? I believe you know the answer...

 

[Windjammer]

Unlike on other aircraft, all three external drop tanks for JF-17, seem of same shape and volume.

 

[monitor]

Indian expert opinion on PAF induction of CM-400AKG

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SHERKHAN: I wonder why the PAF has to be in ‘lockdown’ mode as far as info on the CM-400AKG goers, since a lot more information has been officially given by its OEM to CCTV channels. If anyone understands Mandarin, then it will clearly emerge after listening to such interviews that the claimed terminal velocity of this missile is Mach 5.5, while the range envelope—depending on launch altitude-- is between 100km & 240km. As for the advent of such missiles having an impact on the naval doctrines of those navies that operate carrier battle groups, I don’t foresee such a possibility. This is because gone are the days (like in 1971) when a carrier battle group had to cruise only 25nm away from hostile coastlines while launching/retrieving carrier-borne combat aircraft. Today, a distance of 150nm will have to be maintained despite the availability of 24/7 AEW & C capabilities. In an IN versus PN conflict scenario, a chain of TELs housing the PN’s 290km-range C-602 ASCMs backed up by P-3C Orion Update 3 MRMR/ASW aircraft will be deployed to deter the IN’s carrier battle groups from approaching Pakistan’s coastline. But the PN’s main challenge will be to breach the IN’s close-in anti-ASCM air-defences, which will be the Barak-2 MR-SAMs & EL/M-2248 MF-STAR AESA volume search radars on board at least three P-15A DDGs that will accompany each aircraft carrier, plus such weapons & sensors mounted on the aircraft carrier itself. Even if one considers the prospect of air-launched missiles like CM-400AKG being used, one will require at least 24 such missiles to be launched in swarms from 12 JF-17s (backed up by at least one Saab 2000 AEW & CS platform) in order to overwhelm the IN’s close-in air-defence systems. In fact, that’s why the PLAN had acquired four Type 956E DDGs (each with eight Raduga-built Kh-41 Zubr supersonic ASCMs) since, as per Soviet naval doctrine, it would take at least 24 supersonic ASCMs (fired concurrently from warships, SSGNs & Tu-22M3s) to overwhelm the air-defences of a US Navy carrier battle group. Will the PAF therefore be able to simultaneously deploy 12 JF-17s with 24 CM-400AKGs & a Saab 2000 AEW & CS, or will it, along with the PN, launch a combined forces attack with C-602s & CM-400AKGs? In either scenario, the element of surprise will be lost very early since the C-602 is not exactly sea-skimming, while a flight of 12 JF-17s will be easily located by Ka-31 AEW helicopters while the JF-17s are still 250km away from the IN’s carrier battle group.
That is why I can only conclude that the PAF has gone for the CM-400AKG not for the sake of using them against naval targets, but against fixed land-based targets like industrial installations & transportation infrastructure, since it has realised that CALCMs like the Ra’ad & the PA’s Babur will no longer be effective against the IAF’s air-defence systems like the EL/M-2084 AESA-based early warning/engagement radars & SpyDer-SR SHORADS combination, & the Barak-2/ELM-2258 combination. But then again, if the Barak-2 can successfully supersonic inbound ASCMs, then there’s no reason why its land-based variant won’t be able to intercept inbound supersonic CALCMs like the CM-400AKG.

 

[Najam Khan]

Indian expert opinion on PAF induction of CM-400AKG


That is why I can only conclude that the PAF has gone for the CM-400AKG not for the sake of using them against naval targets, but against fixed land-based targets like industrial installations & transportation infrastructure, since it has realised that CALCMs like the Ra’ad & the PA’s Babur will no longer be effective against the IAF’s air-defence systems like the EL/M-2084 AESA-based early warning/engagement radars & SpyDer-SR SHORADS combination, & the Barak-2/ELM-2258 combination. But then again, if the Barak-2 can successfully supersonic inbound ASCMs, then there’s no reason why its land-based variant won’t be able to intercept inbound supersonic CALCMs like the CM-400AKG.

Mach 4 means 1180.185600001 m/sec and Mach 5.5 means 1622.755200002 m/sec.

Now see all these claims objectively:
EL/M-2084 has a detection range of upto 100km.
By 2016, IAF will be getting 34 of such early warning radars, which will relay data to air-defence weapons systems such as Barak-I/II. For each second that is lost in transfer of the target information the missile will cover 1200-1600m.

IF EL/M-2084 detected the missile at a distance of 100km (best case?); which was traveling at Mach5.5 (1600m/s) then they have 62.5 sec to respond.

Or IF missile speed is Mach 4(1200m/s) then its 83.3 seconds to intercept the missile before it hits the target. But again, this is just theoretical analysis, CM-400AKG's target and EL/M-2084 detection radar (and Barak-2 LR-SAMs) will be a distant apart.

The accuracy of CM-400AKG and Barak-2 missile, response time of Indian air defence units, number of CM-400 missiles fired, number of attacker aircraft, number of different targets engaged on ground and number of defence systems employed by Indian forces will change the shape of this equation.

Making definitive statement that 'It can or can not be done' is not possible...because all the aforementioned details and order of battle of both sides are either not completely known or are conditional to the day of attack.


PS: Simple maths used above...in case anybody wants to recheck
d=v * t
100,000m = 1600 m/s * time
62.5 sec= time

 

[Tempest II]

What is the maximum target speed for the Python 5? … … ???