JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Edevelop]

Feast your eyes boys!

I don't understand. It says FC-1 can take this weapon on board. But has Pakistan purchased it ?

 

[sancho]

If somebody thinks MAR-1 is the one, think again

Interesting, but since PAF decided for MAR 1, I think this will be used by Chinese forces or export customers only.

Jesus Christ, Wallah!

Why does everything have to be compared with Brahmos? Indians cannot digest the fact that PAF has access to supersonic AGMs? Seriously, grow the heck up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually it's the otherway around, but the discussion between Oscar and Contrarian are at least reasonable technical once, we have seen a lot more useless speculations here and in the Indian section in the last days.

 

[SQ8]

Yes, just as I explained it, because it will be the best option to provide a sea blockade of Pakistani ports, but before that there will be strikes to destroy costal air bases, defence and of course PN assests.


As far as carrier is concerned, if it is protected by the layers of naval assets in waters and air, what stops these JFs to target escorts from standoff distances.

The air defence of course, as Contrarian tried to explain, having a missile is one point, getting into launch range another, since the fighter will be detected and engaged long before that. That's why I said, the safer and more likey option is to use it against land based targets, because these can be attacked even from Pakistani air space, without the need to avoid Indian defence first. Not to mention that the missiles is not useful against big and heavy armored target as a carrier, as some Chinese members already explained.
Forget the hype about this missile for a moment an think it through please, we know that JF 17 has already integrated C-802 anti ship missiles with way longer range and even bigger warheads. Do you really expect PAF attacking a carrier group with CM-400 AKG from closer distance and with higher risks for the fighters, instead of using C-802, or even Raad from safe distance?




Actually it just confirms what was clear for a long time, that Russia will be ready to offer the upgraded version of RD93, based on the RD33 MK. The interesting point however is, if PAF wants to buy them, because they are costlier than the current engines and as Oscar or fatman17 often stated, PAF seems to prefer Chinese engines, instead of Russian engines in future.

The TWR depends on the weight of the fighter of course and before you know how much that will change you can't calculate the TWR, not to forget that the 91.kN are Afterburner thrust, which is hardly important, since the fighters normally fly with dry thrust.

Actually, what I did state was that the PAF would prefer a Chinese engine if it was good enough..but for the JF-17 it already has enough for the first two blocks and may order more if a Chinese alternative is not ready.
Now that the russians have offered the bait.. the PAF may take it using the Chinese proxy.
After all, the third batch will be heavier than the first one due to equipment and otherwise.. hence an uprated engine will be best suited for it.

The problem with attacking ships as outlined by you and contrarian is further exasperated for the PAF by the rather easy targets subsonic ASM's make for shipboard SAM's(unless they fly through waves and use evasive techniques that consume fuel and reduce range). While a Cm400 based strike may be at greater risk from interceptors.... it also will be delivering a warhead that has a higher chance of getting through defenses(I am assuming that it is slightly more sophisticated than contrarian makes it out to be).I am more inclined to think of the missile as the Chinese 3M-54(klub) based on its size and specifications.
The Klub missile flies subsonic till the last leg and then goes supersonic terminal...this missile may follow a similar flight path.Flying at lower mach numbers till it hits terminal engagement for the Mach 4 kinetic kill.
Also, I would not underestimate guidance systems for the missile as I am personally aware of what the C-802 is capable of..and suffice to say that the version equipping the F-22P's is roughly equivalent in guidance and ECCM sophistication to the AGM-84D along with having GPS/INS assistance.. and can re-attack.
So I would not rate this system less.

 

[itaskol]

@ itaskol

Do you any info from Chinese sources about the AoA or wingloading of JF 17?

AOA dont know.
max carry weight is 4600 kilo accounding to chinese display board in zhuhai air show.
but I dont think that the chinese display board about Jf 17 in zhuhai air show is the exact specification. the display board there are for chinese normal visiter. not for professionals.
for example: the rang for JF 17 they use ferry rang ( 转场航程） for J10 they use basic rang(基本航程）.many confusing...
both jf17 and j10 dont have specification in englisch in zhuhai air show.

for exact specification. should better ask the pakistani pilot, they know more.
or pakistani display board in other airshow it better than our display board.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

In war there is no such thing as 2+2=4
How can you say that IN Carrier is not destructible? or Barak system is 100% accurate? or Indian pilots are super humans flying 23rd century machines?

PAF has got a weapon, they will definitely trained themselves on it. Every force has its set of tactics which it employ during war. PAF will also devise strategy to how to use this weapon system with success against warships. And PAF being a highly professional force is not stupid that it will not bring into equation all the defenses which India has got. That is why War games, exercises are done. To fine tune the tactics.

So any Indian here if think so that ACC is invincible is day dreaming.

 

[itaskol]

I really hope the pla itself can buy some JF 17 after zhuhai airshow.
but till now. there is no sign that they will.
last month the last new Q5 is produced from hongdu for PLA (a5 production line now finally closed, they beging to produce L15 after zhuhai airshow). very dissapointing. that PLA still buy this sht Q5. JF 17 is far far better than Q5

it is not only depends on money. there are many Aviation fatories to feed.
CAC has already got many big PLA project such as (j10 and J 20....).
and AVIC have to balance it.

 

[itaskol]

Yes Barak has a high probability of shooting CM-400
BUT

Cost?
Barak 8 is 24 million dollar per system. Thats 3 million per missile..
CM-400 is most probably less than 100k per missile.
Cost will stop india from mass deployment of Barak system..But low cost will allow PAF to fire these missiles on same target in larger numbers..So chances of a kill are very high.
Low cost of this 'fire and forget' precision guided rocket is a very huge advantage..
Mass deployment is feasible and will overwhelm indian defences.

Pakistan can buy some SY400 guieded rocket system.
and hand it to hamas. let hamas test how reliable the israel airdefense system is.

 

[abaseen99]

jf 17 at zuhai air show

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

In war there is no such thing as 2+2=4
How can you say that IN Carrier is not destructible? or Barak system is 100% accurate? or Indian pilots are super humans flying 23rd century machines?

PAF has got a weapon, they will definitely trained themselves on it. Every force has its set of tactics which it employ during war. PAF will also devise strategy to how to use this weapon system with success against warships. And PAF being a highly professional force is not stupid that it will not bring into equation all the defenses which India has got. That is why War games, exercises are done. To fine tune the tactics.

So any Indian here if think so that ACC is invincible is day dreaming.

Technology speaks for themselves , Iron Dome prove the technology mastery in Intercepting Technology.

Pakistan can buy some SY400 guieded rocket system.
and hand it to hamas. let hamas test how reliable the israel airdefense system is.

i am game for it, when Iron Dome can stop unguided rockets in large number then it can also stop SY400 in small number , unguided rocket is more sleek and fired in 100's no

 

[itaskol]

If somebody thinks MAR-1 is the one, think again

LD 10
lauch platform JF 17
weight 234kG
size： diameter 203mm，4060mm long
rang:60kilometer
inertial guidance +passive radar
lethal radius 15m

 

[itaskol]

Technology speaks for themselves , Iron Dome prove the technology mastery in Intercepting Technology.



i am game for it, when Iron Dome can stop unguided rockets in large number then it can also stop SY400 in small number , unguided rocket is more sleek and fired in 100's no

iron dome is not that good as you think.
most hamas missile are hand made missiles,
hamas are very poor. they just buy some chinese seamless steel tube, and build some poor rocket.

very low speed ,very low rang, very poor accuracy

off topic we do calculated the price of this kind of hamas rocket. it is no more than 200USD.
and a Iron dome missile ist far far expensive. even if hamas has enough this kind of poor rocket.
they can make israel bankrupt

 

[Wasif A.K.]

I really hope the pla itself can buy some JF 17 after zhuhai airshow.
but till now. there is no sign that they will.
last month the last new Q5 is produced from hongdu for PLA (a5 production line now finally closed, they beging to produce L15 after zhuhai airshow). very dissapointing. that PLA still buy this sht Q5. JF 17 is far far better than Q5

it is not only depends on money. there are many Aviation fatories to feed.
CAC has already got many big PLA project such as (j10 and J 20....).
and AVIC have to balance it.

Well no doubt jf17 has emerged and has proved to be a lethal war plane specially, after the induction of different types of weapon integration( with help of Chinese brothers ) but honestly speaking induction of jf17 in PLAAF's FLEET doesn't seem to make sense. I mean the role they will get from jf17 is not something they don't have till yet, but they already have other platforms that can perform the same task.

Su-30MKK
Shenyang J-11
Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon
are among them, why would they bring in a new toy ? No doubt jf17 is very economical, but adding this to their inventory will not increase any operational capabilities of PLAAF .

And with the 5genenration fighter aircrafts being tested, i.e. j20 and j31 and 3-4 more unknown jXX, I doubt the jf17 would ever be considered.

 

[itaskol]

Well no doubt jf17 has emerged and has proved to be a lethal war plane specially, after the induction of different types of weapon integration( with help of Chinese brothers ) but honestly speaking induction of jf17 in PLAAF's FLEET doesn't seem to make sense. I mean the role they will get from jf17 is not something they don't have till yet, but they already have other platforms that can perform the same task.

Su-30MKK
Shenyang J-11
Chengdu J-10 Vigorous Dragon
are among them, why would they bring in a new toy ? No doubt jf17 is very economical, but adding this to their inventory will not increase any operational capabilities of PLAAF .

And with the 5genenration fighter aircrafts being tested, i.e. j20 and j31 and 3-4 more unknown jXX, I doubt the jf17 would ever be considered.

plaaf can at least replace their a5 with jf 17.
and the production of a5 attacker should be stopped long time ago..but they just closed the a 5 production line since last month...

and in my view it is important that plaaf to buy some jf 17. it is very important if we want to export jf 17.

 

[Wasif A.K.]

plaaf can at least replace their a5 with jf 17.
and the production of a5 attacker should be stopped long time ago..but they just closed the a 5 production line since last month...

and in my view it is important that plaaf to buy some jf 17. it is very important if we want to export jf 17.

Agree with your both opinions brother. For marketing's sake PLAAF should induct a few squadrons of thunders atleast.
Meanwhile not only marketing's sake but i also have heard that PLAAF will induct them but only after when the PAF's requirements are fulfilled. No one knows for sure about it. But since a PT-06 PROTOTYPE is being flown and tested constantly it does seem like they may induct it, But may be not the current block or with current specifications.( mainly with a russian engine)


Lets wait for ws13 to be matured and chances of jf17's induction in numbers may be very well seen then

 

[fatman17]

Yes, just as I explained it, because it will be the best option to provide a sea blockade of Pakistani ports, but before that there will be strikes to destroy costal air bases, defence and of course PN assests.


As far as carrier is concerned, if it is protected by the layers of naval assets in waters and air, what stops these JFs to target escorts from standoff distances.

The air defence of course, as Contrarian tried to explain, having a missile is one point, getting into launch range another, since the fighter will be detected and engaged long before that. That's why I said, the safer and more likey option is to use it against land based targets, because these can be attacked even from Pakistani air space, without the need to avoid Indian defence first. Not to mention that the missiles is not useful against big and heavy armored target as a carrier, as some Chinese members already explained.
Forget the hype about this missile for a moment an think it through please, we know that JF 17 has already integrated C-802 anti ship missiles with way longer range and even bigger warheads. Do you really expect PAF attacking a carrier group with CM-400 AKG from closer distance and with higher risks for the fighters, instead of using C-802, or even Raad from safe distance?




Actually it just confirms what was clear for a long time, that Russia will be ready to offer the upgraded version of RD93, based on the RD33 MK. The interesting point however is, if PAF wants to buy them, because they are costlier than the current engines and as Oscar or fatman17 often stated, PAF seems to prefer Chinese engines, instead of Russian engines in future.

The TWR depends on the weight of the fighter of course and before you know how much that will change you can't calculate the TWR, not to forget that the 91.kN are Afterburner thrust, which is hardly important, since the fighters normally fly with dry thrust.

chinese engines would be sanction-proof, cheaper to buy. Russia can change its mind 'anytime'