JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[MastanKhan]

Boss you r right but i dont agree that we have zero metallurgical base. We have thousands of engineers trained by Dr. AQ Khan who is a metallurgist himself. If we can work with elements like Uranium, we can work with other metals too. Its just to get in positive frame of mind. I m 100% sure, give your scientists an objective, give them resources, they can provide u with result. Regards

Youngman,

Your post seems that you have no knowledge about the subject matter---you are just trying to wing it.

Let me just give you a comparison---making a fighter aircraft engine is about a 1000 times more difficult than making the nuc bomb that pak has---.

Even making a piston engine 10 times more difficult than making a nuc----. In todays economy---a good successful gasoline piston engine would cost around 2---5 billion dollars---and no current manufacturer in the world is taking the risk to invest on their own----even mega corporations who may have a 100 times more budget than pakistan at their disposal.

Please go through this board and postings and read---read read and read----. A nation like india---with countless PHD's--govt behind the project---with actual blue prints of a diesel engine---supposedly to be 1500 HP output---the end product could only deliver 500 HP---.

This comment not being disrespectful to india---but showing you to understand the enormity of the project.

As for those in PAF---if they can just focus on the job that they have and give it just 90 % --- they need to focus on providing security to their bases----that will be well worth it---.

Don't feel bad---there have been many on this board with similiar ideas about making a fighter aircraft engine and no understanding what it takes to do it.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Youngman,

Your post seems that you have no knowledge about the subject matter---you are just trying to wing it.

Let me just give you a comparison---making a fighter aircraft engine is about a 1000 times more difficult than making the nuc bomb that pak has---.

Even making a piston engine 10 times more difficult than making a nuc----. In todays economy---a good successful gasoline piston engine would cost around 2---5 billion dollars---and no current manufacturer in the world is taking the risk to invest on their own----even mega corporations who may have a 100 times more budget than pakistan at their disposal.

Please go through this board and postings and read---read read and read----. A nation like india---with countless PHD's--govt behind the project---with actual blue prints of a diesel engine---supposedly to be 1500 HP output---the end product could only deliver 500 HP---.

This comment not being disrespectful to india---but showing you to understand the enormity of the project.

As for those in PAF---if they can just focus on the job that they have and give it just 90 % --- they need to focus on providing security to their bases----that will be well worth it---.

Don't feel bad---there have been many on this board with similiar ideas about making a fighter aircraft engine and no understanding what it takes to do it.

Sir with due respect, we as a nation suffer from this syndrome called "inferiority complex". We continue to invite companies from Turkey or China to construct a road. We still order 600 bad quality buses from China but will not place an order to our in country plant of Hino-Pak for the same. I read this forum and alas.. what can i say after reading comments such as "we will have to wait until China build its own engine in 2017". For God sake plz, we are a nation, have human and financial resources too. You r in USA, do u know our government distributed charity of Rs. 80 billion in the name of Benazir income support in just 1 year. Do you know a single road currently being build in Lahore, its cost is exceeding Rs. 61 billion.

Regarding ur comments about Nuclear bomb, sir it is not at all easy to enrich uranium. More then 20 technologies are needed to be mastered before a Nuclear devise could be materialized.

And India, yes they strive for 1500hp engine and end up making 500hp. Don't u think its an achievement? If today they have successfully completed 500hp engine in couple of years they will succeed in 1500hp as well. At least their direction is correct. Where is our direction? We r not taking "First step" sir..

 

[Viper0011.]

Youngman,

Your post seems that you have no knowledge about the subject matter---you are just trying to wing it.

Let me just give you a comparison---making a fighter aircraft engine is about a 1000 times more difficult than making the nuc bomb that pak has---.

Even making a piston engine 10 times more difficult than making a nuc----. In todays economy---a good successful gasoline piston engine would cost around 2---5 billion dollars---supposedly to be 1500 HP output---the end product could only deliver 500 HP---.

I disagree with the above. An example is Iran. They build their missiles, now some jets, vehicles, etc. BUT they can't build a nuc. Reason is as it is VERY complex. Comparison of Piston engine technology to Nucs to Jet engine is comparing apples to banana's and then to cucumbers. None of these are relevant to the topic.

Piston engine is an easy task. Pakistan assemble these under Suzuki, Honda and through other companies. However, the private sector should come into it. Gov't can't do everything for Pakistan.
Similarly, jet engines require proper infrastructure and expensive one. If India made a 500 HP engine, that's great. They've learned the process. Half the GE is in India and so are others. So it's just a matter of time before they can master the research and tech and produce 1500 hp. At least it'll be their own, providing jobs to Indians and without any restrictions

 

[MastanKhan]

I disagree with the above. An example is Iran. They build their missiles, now some jets, vehicles, etc. BUT they can't build a nuc. Reason is as it is VERY complex. Comparison of Piston engine technology to Nucs to Jet engine is comparing apples to banana's and then to cucumbers. None of these are relevant to the topic.

Piston engine is an easy task. Pakistan assemble these under Suzuki, Honda and through other companies. However, the private sector should come into it. Gov't can't do everything for Pakistan.
Similarly, jet engines require proper infrastructure and expensive one. If India made a 500 HP engine, that's great. They've learned the process. Half the GE is in India and so are others. So it's just a matter of time before they can master the research and tech and produce 1500 hp. At least it'll be their own, providing jobs to Indians and without any restrictions

Orangzaib,

Now calm down and think again what you have written---you have totally lost yourself in what you wanted to say---. Just like the poster with 5 posts wanted to wing it---you a very intelligent and articulate poster want to do the same.
Read your post again and see what you have written---it does not meet your standards. But if you insist---I can further dwell on it in spare time.

 

[farhan_9909]

pak piston manufacturer even export

with experience of more them 40 YEARS

..:: Pak Piston Industry ::.. manufacturers of pistons in Pakistan

we Atleast can manufacture a automobile engine if given funds for development

we should not forgot that 20 years back we build first prototype of yasoob in just 1 year

 

[ababeel22]

with all the due respect to aq khan but we are not even sure if the bomb was 100% his work and he didn't get any external help at all. many believe he got the goodies from black market also and we can not deny china's help. being an engineer myself i 100% agree that n bomb making is lot more easier than making a jet engine every one even with a rudimentary knowledge of physics will agree with that. iran isn't testing nuclear bomb because it says that it is not making 1 and also for many other reasons that we all are aware of. believe me there are many countries that dont have a nuclear bomb but can make 1 in very less time starting from scratch but they dont do it because of the international pressure, saying pakistan made a nuclear bomb thus it can make a jet engine is like saying pakistan made jf17 thus it can make a raptor too.

 

[SQ8]

Sir with due respect, we as a nation suffer from this syndrome called "inferiority complex". We continue to invite companies from Turkey or China to construct a road. We still order 600 bad quality buses from China but will not place an order to our in country plant of Hino-Pak for the same. I read this forum and alas.. what can i say after reading comments such as "we will have to wait until China build its own engine in 2017". For God sake plz, we are a nation, have human and financial resources too. You r in USA, do u know our government distributed charity of Rs. 80 billion in the name of Benazir income support in just 1 year. Do you know a single road currently being build in Lahore, its cost is exceeding Rs. 61 billion.

Regarding ur comments about Nuclear bomb, sir it is not at all easy to enrich uranium. More then 20 technologies are needed to be mastered before a Nuclear devise could be materialized.

And India, yes they strive for 1500hp engine and end up making 500hp. Don't u think its an achievement? If today they have successfully completed 500hp engine in couple of years they will succeed in 1500hp as well. At least their direction is correct. Where is our direction? We r not taking "First step" sir..

What is the first step?
where is the investment for the first step..?
Moreover, do you know the process of manufacturing an aero engine well enough to give such optimistic ideas?
There is a fine line between optimism and delusion..
Trying to define realistic approach through "inferiority complex" is a bad way to start out on any task.
A word for that is also called overconfidence.

 

[INDIAISM]

Their are 3 most important things that you need to manufacture engine...

a}Funds

b}Patience....it will take atleast 20-25 years for you to manufacture jet engine...and even then its not sure that you will be succesfull in manufacturing your own Jet engine or not....

c}Technological Base..


Their is a reason why countries like
Japan,Sweden,South Korea or Taiwan
with billions of dollars and high technological base didn't go for indigenous jet engine..

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

What is the first step?
where is the investment for the first step..?
Moreover, do you know the process of manufacturing an aero engine well enough to give such optimistic ideas?
There is a fine line between optimism and delusion..
Trying to define realistic approach through "inferiority complex" is a bad way to start out on any task.
A word for that is also called overconfidence.

Sir, i think you have not read my previous posts. Couple of days ago i asked:

My question is a little off the topic. In my view, Pakistan should start working on developing its own engine. I know its a very long and difficult process, but so was the development of nuclear weapons. Everything has first step. Pakistan has operated a large number of F-6, F7 and Q5. Has rebuild factory of F6 at Kamra. We can start our work from the technical know-how we have of Liming Wopen-6A (Tumansky RD-9B) and Liyang Wopen-13F. Lets say we reach a milestone of developing a jet engine capable of running our own trainer jet in 10 years from now, it would be a great achievement. If we continue to rely only on China for everything, we will never be able to produce something of our own (just like cars, buses, trucks or locomotives).

I got immediate response from a dear member that "we have zero metallurgical base to carry out such a task"

I replied with example of Dr.A.Q Khan, who is a metallurgist himself. I also mentioned that if we can enriched a metal like Uranium, we can also handle other metals as well.

This was the preface of whole discussion. Now for first step, sir, how much money do we need to start a R & D project? Rs.10 billion? Is there any example in the world where lets say an R & D is carried over a period of 10 years. Whole project cost Rs. 100 billion or so. Does all the cost have to be paid at start? Every year a specific amount is pumped in. Right?

Ab mai bolta hun urdu mai "kya hum Pakistani itni hi ghareeb qoum ho gaye hain ke 5,7 billion har saal ek R&D mai pump nhi kar sakte"

Sir, we are pumping 80 billions in Benazir income support program every year, and there are many other such examples also. And as far as our technical human resource is concerned, forget about nuclear weapon (its too easy, even a physicist of Govt College can develop one in his garage ). Are we manufacturing ballistic and cruise missiles or not? Are we fabricating the missiles motors and so much other technologies in country or not? I will suggest you to read about NDC, Fatehjung.

I hope i have clarify what a first step in right direction means.

Sir, we need a direction just...

 

[VCheng]

.............
Sir, we are pumping 80 billions in Benazir income support program every year, and there are many other such examples also. ..............

Correction: The Benazir Income Support Program is directly funded by USA, not Pakistan:

USAID/Pakistan: Program Sectors

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, i think you have not read my previous posts. Couple of days ago i asked:

My question is a little off the topic. In my view, Pakistan should start working on developing its own engine. I know its a very long and difficult process, but so was the development of nuclear weapons. Everything has first step. Pakistan has operated a large number of F-6, F7 and Q5. Has rebuild factory of F6 at Kamra. We can start our work from the technical know-how we have of Liming Wopen-6A (Tumansky RD-9B) and Liyang Wopen-13F. Lets say we reach a milestone of developing a jet engine capable of running our own trainer jet in 10 years from now, it would be a great achievement. If we continue to rely only on China for everything, we will never be able to produce something of our own (just like cars, buses, trucks or locomotives).

I got immediate response from a dear member that "we have zero metallurgical base to carry out such a task"

I replied with example of Dr.A.Q Khan, who is a metallurgist himself. I also mentioned that if we can enriched a metal like Uranium, we can also handle other metals as well.

This was the preface of whole discussion. Now for first step, sir, how much money do we need to start a R & D project? Rs.10 billion? Is there any example in the world where lets say an R & D is carried over a period of 10 years. Whole project cost Rs. 100 billion or so. Does all the cost have to be paid at start? Every year a specific amount is pumped in. Right?

Ab mai bolta hun urdu mai "kya hum Pakistani itni hi ghareeb qoum ho gaye hain ke 5,7 billion har saal ek R&D mai pump nhi kar sakte"

Sir, we are pumping 80 billions in Benazir income support program every year, and there are many other such examples also. And as far as our technical human resource is concerned, forget about nuclear weapon (its too easy, even a physicist of Govt College can develop one in his garage ). Are we manufacturing ballistic and cruise missiles or not? Are we fabricating the missiles motors and so much other technologies in country or not? I will suggest you to read about NDC, Fatehjung.

I hope i have clarify what a first step in right direction means.

Sir, we need a direction just...

Hi,

It is about time that you realized that you have no clue and understanding of what you are saying and what you want to be done---talking sharp and talking smart does not do any good untill and unless you are familiar with the fundamentals of engine building.

---india has walked away from building that diesel engine for its tank and similiarly the jet engine for teja---it has enjoyed the experience but found out that is easier and better to have better relations with countries who have experience of building them for 100 years.

People don't understrand or intentionally don't want to comprehend the significance of thew= difficulties in manufacturing the engine----india had all the blue prints purhased from germany and all the techincal support at its disposal and still the motor was 1000 HP less than the target-----.

Even a manufacturer like CHRYSLER----just came out with a new car Dodge Dart----could not afford to manufacture a new engine for its car on its own---bought it thru I believe alfa romeo---and existing engine---there is new categor of engines--called world engines---small engine used in different makes of cars.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

It is about time that you realized that you have no clue and understanding of what you are saying and what you want to be done---talking sharp and talking smart does not do any good untill and unless you are familiar with the fundamentals of engine building.

---india has walked away from building that diesel engine for its tank and similiarly the jet engine for teja---it has enjoyed the experience but found out that is easier and better to have better relations with countries who have experience of building them for 100 years.

People don't understrand or intentionally don't want to comprehend the significance of thew= difficulties in manufacturing the engine----india had all the blue prints purhased from germany and all the techincal support at its disposal and still the motor was 1000 HP less than the target-----.

Even a manufacturer like CHRYSLER----just came out with a new car Dodge Dart----could not afford to manufacture a new engine for its car on its own---bought it thru I believe alfa romeo---and existing engine---there is new categor of engines--called world engines---small engine used in different makes of cars.

I need some more info on this Arjun's engine being only 500HP, part.

 

[KRAIT]

I need some more info on this Arjun's engine being only 500HP, part.

Better know about Kaveri jet engine which failed to deliver required thrust but still was success. Work is still going on but now with French help, Snecma. It will be used in UAV. So over all it was not a complete failure.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not many countries produce their own jet engines. So India did manage to achieve engines for UAV atleast.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/outlook-bleak-for-indias-kaveri-jet-engine-371948/

 

[Pak47]

This footage was placed on the Jf17 info pool.. since thats not a discussion.. i brought it here

Is there any footage to confirm this? im not completely convinced the image above is authentic.. is there any footage of RAAD being fired by Jf-17?

 

[Dazzler]

jf-17 firing Raad is a photoshop. The pic is meant to illustrate that it can carry 2 RAAD missiles at a time. Whether Raad is actually tested yet or not, no clue.