JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[TAC]

I am a little confused by your posts. It is one thing to play devil's advocate and its another to completely reject the reality.
I've been reading your posts and a few others that are SUPER critical of everything and there are some senior members there too. However, I fail to understand that you or the others in question here know the reality or are in touch with it.

I'd recommend that we close the silly debate and the "wake up Pakistanis, you've been fed lies, etc, etc". You should (and others who are ugly critical of PAF) should provide funds and I'll post air headquarters address here from the google. Send check to them and ask them to buy SU 35, JSF and whatever else .....as its a gift from you to the country. I am SURE they'll appreciate it and the "order or the battlefield" will change per your imagination.

This is crazy. No offense, you've said that you've lived in the US for 27 years (and others have also been here for similar durations), all of a sudden the sheet's hit the fan for you guys?

I respect and appreciate the seniority but dang the negativity. I'd rather folks build something then sit depressed without money and keep having hallucinations about "what could happen if my wet dreams come true and we go buy superman jets" .

Don't worry, if 'something' happens, your life won't be in the harms way as you are sitting in a pretty safe zone.

Here's the reality, being a nuclear state and having 200-300 bvr capable interceptors flying in close proximity has a lot of credibility. In India and Pakistan's scenario, both sides can obtain a lock from 50 to over 100 km's now. That's A LOT of distance. For Pakistan, it means that PAF can fly from FOB's and immediately put a lock onto any incoming plane so there's a risk to whatever SU-30, Mirages, Superman Rafales come in. Sure there's a risk to the Pakistani side too but they are already ready to lose their planes if need be as they HAVE to defend Pakistani airspace. BUT, if you can deter the enemy from coming in, the fight won't happen.....so its that deterrence. JFT has good avionics coupled with Mirages and F 16's. JFT's avionics and radar is very comparable to Mirage 2005, some aspect of Rafale and F 16 block 40 in many ways. Future upgrades will further enhance the capability.
The Chinese nation ran their lives on bicycles for three plus decades...look at where they are at now. Similarly, India had a ban in imports until around mid 90's to support the local industry (remember Maruti's??), look at where they are at now! Similarly, Pakistanis need to study, get educated , work hard and support their country, make local stuff. Its the SIXTH largest population. Imagine where it'll be in 20 years if it built everything local!!! JFT is the STEP in the RIGHT direction from every angle. The "low Tect" jet initially designed to replace crappy A5's and F 7's and 35 year old Mirages is a DIRECT threat to some of the very decent 4th generation planes from a cost & capability's standpoint and it is JUST the first version...there's BII & BIII coming too!
Hope this helps. Let's stop the negativity.

Thank you for a great post. Back to topic -- does anyone know if JF-17 is confirmed for Farnborough yet?

 

[Last Hope]

Thank you for a great post. Back to topic -- does anyone know if JF-17 is confirmed for Farnborough yet?

You won't like the news my friend...

 

[Beast]

WS-13 IS the future engine for JFT regardless whether Russia is willing with RD-93 or not. The engine sale blocking was never done by Russia from the start rather it was just media hype and mostly, false reporting.

Correct! You need to see who is Russia dealing with. The engine supply to JF-17 is gurantee by Chinese. Even with India lobbying, its not going to work. Russia and China has too many things need to work hand in hand to protect against Uncle Sam. China and Russia relationship is build up by the strategic need and not just material dealing.

Pakistan can 100% safe with RD-93 engine use. As long as China back the deal. Russia is never going to make a U-turn on re export to PAF.

 

[Farooqi1]

I am a little confused by your posts. It is one thing to play devil's advocate and its another to completely reject the reality.
I've been reading your posts and a few others that are SUPER critical of everything and there are some senior members there too. However, I fail to understand that you or the others in question here know the reality or are in touch with it.

I'd recommend that we close the silly debate and the "wake up Pakistanis, you've been fed lies, etc, etc". You should (and others who are ugly critical of PAF) should provide funds and I'll post air headquarters address here from the google. Send check to them and ask them to buy SU 35, JSF and whatever else .....as its a gift from you to the country. I am SURE they'll appreciate it and the "order or the battlefield" will change per your imagination.

This is crazy. No offense, you've said that you've lived in the US for 27 years (and others have also been here for similar durations), all of a sudden the sheet's hit the fan for you guys?

I respect and appreciate the seniority but dang the negativity. I'd rather folks build something then sit depressed without money and keep having hallucinations about "what could happen if my wet dreams come true and we go buy superman jets" .

Don't worry, if 'something' happens, your life won't be in the harms way as you are sitting in a pretty safe zone.

Here's the reality, being a nuclear state and having 200-300 bvr capable interceptors flying in close proximity has a lot of credibility. In India and Pakistan's scenario, both sides can obtain a lock from 50 to over 100 km's now. That's A LOT of distance. For Pakistan, it means that PAF can fly from FOB's and immediately put a lock onto any incoming plane so there's a risk to whatever SU-30, Mirages, Superman Rafales come in. Sure there's a risk to the Pakistani side too but they are already ready to lose their planes if need be as they HAVE to defend Pakistani airspace. BUT, if you can deter the enemy from coming in, the fight won't happen.....so its that deterrence. JFT has good avionics coupled with Mirages and F 16's. JFT's avionics and radar is very comparable to Mirage 2005, some aspect of Rafale and F 16 block 40 in many ways. Future upgrades will further enhance the capability.
The Chinese nation ran their lives on bicycles for three plus decades...look at where they are at now. Similarly, India had a ban in imports until around mid 90's to support the local industry (remember Maruti's??), look at where they are at now! Similarly, Pakistanis need to study, get educated , work hard and support their country, make local stuff. Its the SIXTH largest population. Imagine where it'll be in 20 years if it built everything local!!! JFT is the STEP in the RIGHT direction from every angle. The "low Tect" jet initially designed to replace crappy A5's and F 7's and 35 year old Mirages is a DIRECT threat to some of the very decent 4th generation planes from a cost & capability's standpoint and it is JUST the first version...there's BII & BIII coming too!
Hope this helps. Let's stop the negativity.

All right if that is the thinking then this debate is closed. Keep on living in dream world

 

[Dazzler]

Touchy and rude. Don't have an answer. You know what I think the requirements of PAF are? Is to bomb our own people in Fata and Baluchistan and this is how this plane will full fill their requirements. The developers would tell you what ever would sell their product. Of course our neighbor are having difficulties in maintaining an edge in air warfare but not against Pakistan may be against China. Wake up people. You have been fed far too many lies. Think about Mig 29, M2K, MKI and Rafales (Not To Mention PAK_FA). What is the answer?

It was not rude at all just a suggestion to you since you are a new member here, all your queries have been thoroughly discussed in info pool and previous jf-17 threads brother. These questions have been surfacing by new members constantly. Without going into deep details, the PAF initiated the project back in 80s with Super 7 having a relatively affordable price tag, able to fulfil all the requirements that an f-16 could do. Things changed after Pressler amendment when f-16s were blocked.

What is important here is PAF's inspiration with the f-16 and a future aircraft was to match its capabilities if not exceed it. When India got MKI, PAF had plenty to worry as they were not only operating mostly, an obsolete fleet of Mirages and relatively modern f-16s, short legged F-7s. The plans were reconsidered and after deep thoughts, two requirements were considered absolute necessary

1. A true BVR missile firing capability

2. A high performance Fly By Wire that could provide high agility and has to be risk free with a backup system.

This was the birth of jf-17, Chinese had J-10 already in the pipeline, PAF wanted jf-17 with better avionics and radar than formerly proposed, delegation visited Chengdu facility but were not impressed. The extent of stringent requirements were such that PAF's favourite radar supplier, Selex Galileo Grifo-S radar, despite its powerful transmitter and high working modes, excellent SAR mapping, could not satisfy them.

It is important to note that jf-17 presents all the capabilities that were proposed, asked b PAF, also, the DSI intake is a PAF idea, improved EW suite is purely Chinese, shared with J-10s EW, cockpit is way better than J-10, should be on par with j-`0b model. These are requirements that have been known to the public and i see many European nations such as Sweden, following the same suit. Just a brief summary of what is in blk 1, not to mention sensor fusion capability. There is a reason why PAF is happy with this aircraft and the way it is going to embark the future, things look brighter than past.

 

[Farooqi1]

It was not rude at all just a suggestion to you since you are a new member here, all your queries have been thoroughly discussed in info pool and previous jf-17 threads brother. These questions have been surfacing by new members constantly. Without going into deep details, the PAF initiated the project back in 80s with Super 7 having a relatively affordable price tag, able to fulfil all the requirements that an f-16 could do. Things changed after Pressler amendment when f-16s were blocked.

What is important here is PAF's inspiration with the f-16 and a future aircraft was to match its capabilities if not exceed it. When India got MKI, PAF had plenty to worry as they were not only operating mostly, an obsolete fleet of Mirages and relatively modern f-16s, short legged F-7s. The plans were reconsidered and after deep thoughts, two requirements were considered absolute necessary

1. A true BVR missile firing capability

2. A high performance Fly By Wire that could provide high agility and has to be risk free with a backup system.

This was the birth of jf-17, Chinese had J-10 already in the pipeline, PAF wanted jf-17 with better avionics and radar than formerly proposed, delegation visited Chengdu facility but were not impressed. The extent of stringent requirements were such that PAF's favourite radar supplier, Selex Galileo Grifo-S radar, despite its powerful transmitter and high working modes, excellent SAR mapping, could not satisfy them.

It is important to note that jf-17 presents all the capabilities that were proposed, asked b PAF, also, the DSI intake is a PAF idea, improved EW suite is purely Chinese, shared with J-10s EW, cockpit is way better than J-10, should be on par with j-`0b model. These are requirements that have been known to the public and i see many European nations such as Sweden, following the same suit. Just a brief summary of what is in blk 1, not to mention sensor fusion capability. There is a reason why PAF is happy with this aircraft and the way it is going to embark the future, things look brighter than past.

Nabil:

We all love Pakistan and worried about its defence. What ever I wrote over in this forum was coming from my heart. I just don't want us to be less then any body. I am not a technicall person. I comapre capability to capability this where I get confused. Well any way please keep us posted what is going on. I hope things will be brighter in the future. This debate is now closed.

 

[Dazzler]

Nabil:

We all love Pakistan and worried about its defence. What ever I wrote over in this forum was coming from my heart. I just don't want us to be less then any body. I am not a technicall person. I comapre capability to capability this where I get confused. Well any way please keep us posted what is going on. I hope things will be brighter in the future. This debate is now closed.

I understand your emotions since i have spent some time abroad and i had similar sense of desperation and urgency for my country. I appreciate your (this includes all Pakistanis who are abroad for one reason or another) feelings and the depth of affection and love for the nation.

 

[Pak47]

Is it possible for future JFT variants to pull of the cobra maneuver? With future thrust vectoring? Why or why not? Is this even possible with single engine planes?

And.. if so.. i imagine.. this will be difficult if you have many weapons on its payloads or Is it only possible with nothing equipped?

 

[TAC]

You won't like the news my friend...

So are you saying it is not coming to Farnborough? If so what source?

 

[SQ8]

Is it possible for future JFT variants to pull of the cobra maneuver? With future thrust vectoring? Why or why not? Is this even possible with single engine planes?

And.. if so.. i imagine.. this will be difficult if you have many weapons on its payloads or Is it only possible with nothing equipped?

Yes its possible..
and it may be possible for the JF-17 to pull of the cobra manoeuvre but the FLCS laws will have to be broken for that to happen.

 

[Safriz]

Grippen has loads of videos on youtube...pulling cobra manoever...and thats single engine.

 

[SQ8]

Grippen has loads of videos on youtube...pulling cobra manoever...and thats single engine.

And the grippen is new..
here is the old 1960's Saab Draken doing the cobra

 

[Safriz]

So are you saying it is not coming to Farnborough? If so what source?

nop....i am pretty sure PAF isnt participating in any european airshow this year...
RIAT has invited PAF... hasnt got any response...same for farnborough...their organisers say they havent received any application from PAF..
But regardless i will go to both.airshows anyway.
I could have cheered PAF...now i will cheer other airforces..
The thing is GOP kills any chance of advertising good things about Pakistan...any chance to promote Pakistan abroad..

how else Pakistan's image can be imoroved?

 

[Farooqi1]

nop....i am pretty sure PAF isnt participating in any european airshow this year...
RIAT has invited PAF... hasnt got any response...same for farnborough...their organisers say they havent received any application from PAF..
But regardless i will go to both.airshows anyway.
I could have cheered PAF...now i will cheer other airforces..
The thing is GOP kills any chance of advertising good things about Pakistan...any chance to promote Pakistan abroad..

how else Pakistan's image can be imoroved?

Need to get rid of extremist image. Need to have a progressive govt (yet with in the limits of our culture and religious parameters)

 

[Farooqi1]

I understand your emotions since i have spent some time abroad and i had similar sense of desperation and urgency for my country. I appreciate your (this includes all Pakistanis who are abroad for one reason or another) feelings and the depth of affection and love for the nation.

Nabil:

One last question. Tell me that we are working towards a stealthy version of JFT or some other Stealth options. That would really make my otherwise very depressing day.