JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Tempest II]

its photoshoped

If you mean photoshopped because of the ordinance labels, them you are right ... ... if you mean the aircraft and ordinance then you are mistaken. It is a smaller image resized 150% or maybe 200%. It is out of a brochure from about 2 years ago.

I cropped it, then enlarged it (hence the grainy appearence) from here:

 

[Manticore]

original post by tempest
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-3-a-252.html#post1040890

http://www.mycity-military.com/Avioni/JF-17-FC-1-Thunder_16.html

 

[Tempest II]

Also you are mistaken, those specs are from Gripen C/D as you can see here:

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Doc...en/Gripen product sheet/Gripen_Dimensions.pdf

The empty weight is even from the twin seat version, while the single seat C has a weight of 6800Kg and the single seat A version, which is more comparable to the current JF 17 weighs only around 6600Kg. That means it is roughly 150Kgs heavier, but now comes the important part that you might have forgot.

Seems you are correct, the poster, without saying it in writing, might have been specific to the B version which it shows ... ... I missed the detail of the photo. Thanks.

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

I will take it to the ultimate level----the love of your life----you 9 months old daughter---your first born has a severe infection----she is terribly sick---the doctor says---you got one last shot----he has two medications---one made in sweden---the other made in china---the chinesemedicine costs Rs100----the swedish medicine costs Rs300----please take you pick.

As an aircraft in its development stage---the jf17 is a champion on its own merits---first the cost of the aircraft---. Then comes the packages---once the package is installed and the aircraft put thru its paces---you will have the answer to the next puzzle ( the ground strike capability )---the next step is the bvr package----so---in another 3 to 5 years time---you will have the complete report on the capabilities of this aircraft---the ground attack and the bvr---.

At this stage---this aircraft is being together in pieces---it is like a fill in the blanks as you keep moving----. The french denial of radar / electronics package has put a very serious dent in the operational capability of this aircraft---what was supposedly to be ready 2 years ago---won't be ready for another 2---3 years.

The grippen was all set and ready 9 years ago----Not directing this comment at you---but do you pakistanis know why you keep failing all the time in most of the things in life---you have no concept of time---you want to keep moving at your own pace----as you reach the point of interest 10 years later---you keep wondering why don't you see others besides you---why is this dust in the air suffocating you!!!

time is a factor required for it to mature yet thunder has been inducted and is in service for four years and even after decade i guess we would look it the same way..
were we looking to the gripen or the mirage2000 after four years of its induction, ofcourse not. it was already considered a best aircrft and was reviewed by both PAF and IAF as they thought it would completely mature in a few years..the same thought is absent when it comes to thunder...the reason why its look down upon is that chinese defence products are still a myth and will remain so for quite long time.
secondly its not just the time in years that matters for aircrft to mature its the number of flying hours and thunder has already flown quiet a bit..maturing is a lot faster than what you make it look.

 

[MastanKhan]

time is a factor required for it to mature yet thunder has been inducted and is in service for four years and even after decade i guess we would look it the same way..
were we looking to the gripen or the mirage2000 after four years of its induction, ofcourse not. it was already considered a best aircrft and was reviewed by both PAF and IAF as they thought it would completely mature in a few years..the same thought is absent when it comes to thunder...the reason why its look down upon is that chinese defence products are still a myth and will remain so for quite long time.
secondly its not just the time in years that matters for aircrft to mature its the number of flying hours and thunder has already flown quiet a bit..maturing is a lot faster than what you make it look.

Sir,

Don't you get it by now----PAF is a liar---they have deceived the country for the longest---either of those aircaft was a perfect pick---we would have been 10 years ahead in our air defence----

 

[danger007]

Hi,

I will take it to the ultimate level----the love of your life----you 9 months old daughter---your first born has a severe infection----she is terribly sick---the doctor says---you got one last shot----he has two medications---one made in sweden---the other made in china---the chinesemedicine costs Rs100----the swedish medicine costs Rs300----please take you pick.

As an aircraft in its development stage---the jf17 is a champion on its own merits---first the cost of the aircraft---. Then comes the packages---once the package is installed and the aircraft put thru its paces---you will have the answer to the next puzzle ( the ground strike capability )---the next step is the bvr package----so---in another 3 to 5 years time---you will have the complete report on the capabilities of this aircraft---the ground attack and the bvr---.

At this stage---this aircraft is being together in pieces---it is like a fill in the blanks as you keep moving----. The french denial of radar / electronics package has put a very serious dent in the operational capability of this aircraft---what was supposedly to be ready 2 years ago---won't be ready for another 2---3 years.

The grippen was all set and ready 9 years ago----Not directing this comment at you---but do you pakistanis know why you keep failing all the time in most of the things in life---you have no concept of time---you want to keep moving at your own pace----as you reach the point of interest 10 years later---you keep wondering why don't you see others besides you---why is this dust in the air suffocating you!!!

mastan bhai... Costly medicine won't give you guaranty cure.... cost of the medicine is doesn't matter.. anyways JF-17 is your Initial step... you should be glad to have a success in first step.... Jf-17 is good fighter, but ofcourse it is not high-end fighter but best in its class with cost effective... PAF lack of front line fighter except F-16's... The americans just fishing you guys to stop joining into Chinese camp.... we had options like Mig-29,mirage-2k(upgrade in prog), Su-30mki, in future rafale , PAK-FA, LCA.. But pakistan lack of it.... When ball is in Pakistan court, definitely you guys neglected( mirge-2k,typhoon).... We used every possible option as much as we can....

 

[graphican]

Hi,

I will take it to the ultimate level----the love of your life----you 9 months old daughter---your first born has a severe infection----she is terribly sick---the doctor says---you got one last shot----he has two medications---one made in sweden---the other made in china---the chinesemedicine costs Rs100----the swedish medicine costs Rs300----please take you pick.

As an aircraft in its development stage---the jf17 is a champion on its own merits---first the cost of the aircraft---. Then comes the packages---once the package is installed and the aircraft put thru its paces---you will have the answer to the next puzzle ( the ground strike capability )---the next step is the bvr package----so---in another 3 to 5 years time---you will have the complete report on the capabilities of this aircraft---the ground attack and the bvr---.

At this stage---this aircraft is being together in pieces---it is like a fill in the blanks as you keep moving----. The french denial of radar / electronics package has put a very serious dent in the operational capability of this aircraft---what was supposedly to be ready 2 years ago---won't be ready for another 2---3 years.

The grippen was all set and ready 9 years ago----Not directing this comment at you---but do you pakistanis know why you keep failing all the time in most of the things in life---you have no concept of time---you want to keep moving at your own pace----as you reach the point of interest 10 years later---you keep wondering why don't you see others besides you---why is this dust in the air suffocating you!!!

Sir keeping the high level of respect for you, I highly disagree with you. "You Pakistanis" are not the cause of problem when one Pakistani comes and says "Mere humwatno, you have just received a blessing from Almighty and I am your earth lord for next 10 years" and then one person with another one sick leader signs an underhand deal and makes whole "Pakistanis" suffer and then some seniors come and appreciate that "earthly lord" and call the "Nation Bad".. Unfortunate I must say.

Coming to the context, I have noticed you have a point of view about JFT and you sticking with that. In your calculations its 3+ generation aircraft and I respect your point of view but lets not bring "You Pakistanis" here. We both are not living in Pakistan but lets not degrade the country who made us speak and fed us for years and on. Its a request.

 

[Dazzler]

Sir keeping the high level of respect for you, I highly disagree with you. "You Pakistanis" are not the cause of problem when one Pakistani comes and says "Mere humwatno, you have just received a blessing from Almighty and I am your earth lord for next 10 years" and then one person with another one sick leader signs an underhand deal and makes whole "Pakistanis" suffer and then some seniors come and appreciate that "earthly lord" and call the "Nation Bad".. Unfortunate I must say.

Coming to the context, I have noticed you have a point of view about JFT and you sticking with that. In your calculations its 3+ generation aircraft and I respect your point of view but lets not bring "You Pakistanis" here. We both are not living in Pakistan but lets not degrade the country who made us speak and fed us for years and on. Its a request.

I will take any Martial Law Administrator over democratic, "corrupt and dishonest to the bone" politicians under Zardari as their accepted leader. Anyone who works for the benefit of the country is acceptable, unfortunately, we have had a bitter experience when it comes to democracy. On topic though, it is better to talk and argue for those who understand the dynamics of an organization, then the one who is not aware of the ground realities and loves to fight with a keyboard in hand.

 

[MastanKhan]

mastan bhai... Costly medicine won't give you guaranty cure.... cost of the medicine is doesn't matter.. anyways JF-17 is your Initial step... you should be glad to have a success in first step.... Jf-17 is good fighter, but ofcourse it is not high-end fighter but best in its class with cost effective... PAF lack of front line fighter except F-16's... The americans just fishing you guys to stop joining into Chinese camp.... we had options like Mig-29,mirage-2k(upgrade in prog), Su-30mki, in future rafale , PAK-FA, LCA.. But pakistan lack of it.... When ball is in Pakistan court, definitely you guys neglected( mirge-2k,typhoon).... We used every possible option as much as we can....

Hi,

Wallah---my indian brethren are getting in the same line as my pakistani brethren----. It was not the cost that was the determing factor----it was the quality behind the name----cost was an illusion.

Seems like you don't have children---otherwise you would know what kind of junk medicine, children's powder milk tainted with vehicle anti freeze, children products tainted with lead come out of china.

Have you even owned a saab or a volvo---if not---you would not know and understand their quality---and the engineering behind their design. Pakistan had access to every aircraft after 9/11 except for su30 / mig 29 F 35 F22.

It is not a matter of being good or bad for the JF17----it is a matter of another 10 years being lost by paf---and what do they have---nothing better.

With the chinese product---you are the GUINEA PIG---. Now as you have spent so much time, energy and resource on this product, you are partial to hear any objections against it---so much of your pride and ego is mounted on its success---that just to save your faces---you will not admit to any flaws and shortcomings in the system----you would rather destroy the country---than betray your ego and face the shame.

If americans are fishing pakistan, then pakistan can fish america as well---but they need to do a better job than what they are doing. When the pakistanis learn to do it with a " smile " on their faces, they will find out that they can manipulate the situation to their advantage a lot more than they did before.

It was not the 'costly' medicine---but the standard of quality of medicine in every vial that is the HALLMARK of swedish technology---when you pay for something swedish---you can buy it with your eyes closed with just the simple trust that the product will out perform what it promised---.

First time weapons systems or any machinery has a lots of growing pains---you don't want to bet your future on it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir keeping the high level of respect for you, I highly disagree with you. "You Pakistanis" are not the cause of problem when one Pakistani comes and says "Mere humwatno, you have just received a blessing from Almighty and I am your earth lord for next 10 years" and then one person with another one sick leader signs an underhand deal and makes whole "Pakistanis" suffer and then some seniors come and appreciate that "earthly lord" and call the "Nation Bad".. Unfortunate I must say.

Coming to the context, I have noticed you have a point of view about JFT and you sticking with that. In your calculations its 3+ generation aircraft and I respect your point of view but lets not bring "You Pakistanis" here. We both are not living in Pakistan but lets not degrade the country who made us speak and fed us for years and on. Its a request.

Hi,

First of all---I did not say the JF17 is a 3rd generation aircraft---what I am saying is that it is a brand new system with a lots of growing pains---that has put pakistani defences 10 years behind---it is good to have your own item---but not something that puts the nation behind 10 years every time when a mistake is made.

It is not yet a fully developed system---when it gets to what it does in another 5 years---it will be great---but what to do in the meantime---.

As for 'you pakistanis' comment---my downgrading does not mean much----pakistanis have humiliated and degraded their motherland far worse than my simple comments---acid attacks, gang rapes, atrocities against women---these news items are on the front pages in the world news forum---. What I am talking here are just the scr-ew ups of the paf.

 

[ziaulislam]

well most of us wouldn't agree to your statement..and i would take the worlds of PAF and most of americans and chinese experts rather than assumption based statements. most of time those assumption based statements come out to be wrong, 50 years of avivation history has proven it. fighters though to be much mature or with better legacy behind them suffered infront of newer or fighters thought to be inferior merely due to undermining their country capabilities. we can see this in the migs and mirages history.


i think the biggest screw up Pakistani airforce has done is getting fighters from US paying billions and then grounding them for lac of spare parts..not once but at least twice with the starfighter and f-16. it would have been much better had we gotten mirage2000 even if it had been inferior.

now a days war is so short and unlikely that home products is better than a grounded super dooper aircraft..

countries who needed a relatively larger air force have always/should always strive to get a home fighter even if its inferior in abilities to its opponent.

the decision to build thunder though was by an accident but was a great blessing for us..

lastly as i said , even after three decades people would still use the same logic...as china started later than US/russia, its still behind..logic itself is flawed since best of best experts say the same, the chinese have nearly catch upped with western defence equipment.

 

[Storm Force]

Good debate between MASTER KHAN and other side. BOTH SIDES HAVE GOOD POINTS.

OTHER SIDE pro JFT = Only realistic sanction free option to replace 200 aging mirage ,,,a5 fighters within budget and timecale and ability to add and improve system as per PAF demands.

massive upgrade on BVR capability....


MASTER KHAN.... PAF should have invested earlier and heavier in mirage2000 or gripen deemed to more mature combat ready platforms capable of handling anything IAF throws at PAF including su30mki today. AND this would have avoided spending billions $$$ on a F16 programme which is sanction threatened today and in the future if PAF threatens USA interests which includes war against NEW found friend the indians.


ultimately Master khan feels that a PAF made up of 70% combat fleet of JFT block 12& 3 ie (250 thunders from 400 fighters) may not be sufficient to face off against upgraded mature su30mki mirage2000-5 rafale & LCA ...

But zia is correct in that chinease techoology has nearly caught up on the west BUT how much of china,s cutting edge tech has china provided in jft programme.

OR should we say HOW MUCH has PAF spent in getting chinease best technology ???

 

[Donatello]

Good debate between MASTER KHAN and other side. BOTH SIDES HAVE GOOD POINTS.

OTHER SIDE pro JFT = Only realistic sanction free option to replace 200 aging mirage ,,,a5 fighters within budget and timecale and ability to add and improve system as per PAF demands.

massive upgrade on BVR capability....


MASTER KHAN.... PAF should have invested earlier and heavier in mirage2000 or gripen deemed to more mature combat ready platforms capable of handling anything IAF throws at PAF including su30mki today. AND this would have avoided spending billions $$$ on a F16 programme which is sanction threatened today and in the future if PAF threatens USA interests which includes war against NEW found friend the indians.


ultimately Master khan feels that a PAF made up of 70% combat fleet of JFT block 12& 3 ie (250 thunders from 400 fighters) may not be sufficient to face off against upgraded mature su30mki mirage2000-5 rafale & LCA ...

But zia is correct in that chinease techoology has nearly caught up on the west BUT how much of china,s cutting edge tech has china provided in jft programme.

OR should we say HOW MUCH has PAF spent in getting chinease best technology ???

Is that really Storm Force or did someone hack into his account and started posting saner posts?

In any case the gentleman's name is Mastan Khan not Master Khan........he is not a Judo instructor or something.....

 

[Dazzler]

From the Iron Curtain to the Soft Democracy, every developed country had to start from somewhere and i believe PAF made the right choice by going with a project of their own which has given them something to play with. I discussed the same point before and i say it again. American F-22, 18, 16, 15, 14, 111 etc, all were gradually developed over a span of 70+ years after the WW2. German scientists were leaps and bounds ahead during the WW2 over their British, French, Swedish, Swiss and US counterparts in terms of technological know how and other advanced scientific expertise.

No wonder, after the demise of Hitler and Nazis, they were taken as chunks after chunks, to USSR, US, Brits and European nations. History tells us how humble were the beginnings of today's advanced military technology, particularly, the military aviation. Gripen has roots in Draken, Raptor's ancestor is F-86, Eurofighter opened eyes after EE lightening, Gnat were long gone. The point is, where PAF is standing today with its JFT blk 1, is where the Americans were with their Blk 40/42 F-16s back in 90s, our's has an advantage in EW and avionics particularly cockpit ergonomics and radar over the former. I do not see how we went 10 years back by developing our own fighter that can be, and is being developed in to a way more advanced fighter the any Gripen versions and other rivals, but that will happen in due time and when the need is felt. We today, are not bogged down like we were 20 years ago when PAF had to upgrade Mirages when the world was retiring them, only to gain a little night attack capability. PAF has to pick what was thrown by manufacturers (export versions) what suited its immediate requirements. Americans didnt give us LANTIRN pods, as a replacement, we had to buy Atlis II day only targeting/ navigation pods to complement our fleet. We never had a toy that we could develop, modify, improve all on our own. The day is not too far when we will see advanced versions, dedicated EW or attack versions (already developed in china) and radical RCS reduction technology applied on some version under use by PAF. Now, which of the western aircraft we could get with such flexibility? None.

 

[Donatello]

From the Iron Curtain to the Soft Democracy, every developed country had to start from somewhere and i believe PAF made the right choice by going with a project of their own which has given them something to play with. I discussed the same point before and i say it again. American F-22, 18, 16, 15, 14, 111 etc, all were gradually developed over a span of 70+ years after the WW2. German scientists were leaps and bounds ahead during the WW2 over their British, French, Swedish, Swiss and US counterparts in terms of technological know how and other advanced scientific expertise.

No wonder, after the demise of Hitler and Nazis, they were taken as chunks after chunks, to USSR, US, Brits and European nations. History tells us how humble were the beginnings of today's advanced military technology, particularly, the military aviation. Gripen has roots in Draken, Raptor's ancestor is F-86, Eurofighter opened eyes after EE lightening, Gnat were long gone. The point is, where PAF is standing today with its JFT blk 1, is where the Americans were with their Blk 40/42 F-16s back in 90s, our's has an advantage in EW and avionics particularly cockpit ergonomics and radar over the former. I do not see how we went 10 years back by developing our own fighter that can be, and is being developed in to a way more advanced fighter the any Gripen versions and other rivals, but that will happen in due time and when the need is felt. We today, are not bogged down like we were 20 years ago when PAF had to upgrade Mirages when the world was retiring them, only to gain a little night attack capability. PAF has to pick what was thrown by manufacturers (export versions) what suited its immediate requirements. Americans didnt give us LANTIRN pods, as a replacement, we had to buy Atlis II day only targeting/ navigation pods to complement our fleet. We never had a toy that we could develop, modify, improve all on our own. The day is not too far when we will see advanced versions, dedicated EW or attack versions (already developed in china) and radical RCS reduction technology applied on some version under use by PAF. Now, which of the western aircraft we could get with such flexibility? None.

A factual post,

But Mastan jee wanted to show us that if PAF had bought the European Fighters.....Typhoon, Mirage 2000s or Rafale, like 10 years ago when Pakistan was fresh of an ally in war on terror, then we could have negotiated peace with India long time ago.

If we go back in time and see that India averaged 6% growth all those 10 years upto 2012, then We could have used our firepower as a deterrence. We could have negotiated peace with India and focused our resources on things of higher priority.

In 2001, India didn't have all those Mig 29 SMTs or upgraded Mirage 2000 or the new SU30MKI. Rafale or Typhoon in the hands of PAF would have made a difference.

Now they are much stronger military and economic wise. I think that is what he meant, which seems like a valid point.

JF-17 still has years to mature and our geo-strategic position is as fragile as ever!