JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[sancho]

only reason why we underate thunder as comparable to other similar aircfts like gripen , is that we assume chinese avionics are not as good enough but actually wwe beleieve are not even close enopugh to western avionics...

It's not only that, but there are more basic points as well. Gripen was developed according modern western design and material standards. The new delta canard design (that even the J10 has) or the high use of composites and RAM materials are different to JF 17s development, which probably is caused by the Russian consultancy in the early design stages. Look at when they started to use similar materials in their fighters and how they still wants to limit the use at Pak Fa. So even when you compare the JF 17 B1 with the Gripen A/B, this will be a prime difference.
Other differences might be the use of radar blockers in the air intakes (instead of most likely Y-ducts in JF17), or retractable refuelling probes (instead to fixed) in later batches. JF 17 is simply not developed to have all the most modern features, like comparable western fighters, but to be a cost-effective fighter that does basically anything these Gripen do as well, but with less advanced features. In terms of multi role capability it doesn't stand behind them at all, but in certain fields it is undeniably not as advanced as or on par with the Gripen yet (RCS, speed, maneuverability, payload).
So even though JF 17 is a good fighter with a lot of good capabilities and fully suiting to PAFs requirement, export countries that will have J10, or western fighters like Gripen or F16, might opt for the more advanced versions, if they can afford it. Even PAF wants J10s above JF 17s, although the later batches of both fighters will have similar weapons and techs, so that alone should tell you that there are more reasons than the usual Chinese vs Western comparison.

 

[Dazzler]

How many times have we discussed the same thing? JFT is NOT designed as the top tier fighter anyway, rather a mid tier, high technology fighter. High technology means advanced electronics and avionics, EW, radar and weapons but can carry relatively less payload to respectable ranges, nothing outrageous about this fighter but it has inspired its user already. PAF has been satisfied for what the fighter was meant to do, in most cases, it has surpassed it. For a mainstay fighter, this is nothing short of an achievement. Blk 2 onwards will put it on par with Gripen in many terms.

 

[MastanKhan]

why Karachi museum don't have any jf-17 thunder prototype.
Pakistan-china made 6 prototypes in past

Hi,

You know what is in a museum---aged, old, retired, retiring---jf17 is yet to be 100% operational and you want it to be in a museum---it is still a baby---.

 

[Tempest II]

This is the Gripen A/B. Dimensionally slightly smaller than the JF-17 but at least 700kg heavier! Advanced materials? Maybe for the C/D Gripen but looking at the A/B version, I find it hard to think it was superior to the Thunder.

 

[ziaulislam]

JF-17 and gripen were based upon different design parameters..PAF liked f-16 and thus didnt opted for delta wing/canard design but his doesnt make the gripen/mirage2000 superior to thunder it only makes it different.

what people think that makes them superior is its avionics etc..and the very reason why jf-17 is rated low is the avionics,people still think that Chinese avionics are not upto the mark. reality is that we know nothing only the fact that thunder holds the latest Chinese developments and the fact that china is developing avionics for 5th gen aircrfts , that itself tells story...

other wise it has a better thrust/aerodynamics than earlier mirage2000 and gripen

if PAF had gone through the french deal of 1.2 billion dollars for 50 thunder avionics, i am pretty sure the same people would have rated it much better...

so issue is that chinese avionics are underrated, otherwise the IAF still thinks that mirage2000 as one of the best in their air force and people do consider gripen as world class aircrfts but thunder is considered by same people as no where near to them ..

Where did u get that idea? Indian members feed u with too much corrupted info?

Even yr air marshal gives it thumb up for the radar. This is the thing that surprises him most. It was even as good if not better than what Thales offer to Pakistan for the JF-17. I hope u better don't utter rubbish and humiliate yrself in front of others.

Remember his reputation is at stake when he says those word. Some may believe he just boast abt. But this is suppose to be an export aircraft. You can't hide or lie too much since test pilot of the interested countries will fly this aircraft and if yr claim can't be back up. Don't call yrself chief of air force!

Who are u to judge his word? Chief air force of USAF?

i meant the trend among russians and especially indians,some pakistanis members..western analyst are already acknowledging chinese achievements

 

[danger007]

sir mastan , generally is critical when pak members boast of jf-17's capabilities , however he comes to the rescue of jft with very valid points when indian members are over critical / sceptical about jft's capabilities .. just my observation and I understand and respect his POV -- it is better to downplay the capability of a fighter in front of the general public than to show all your cards and neither should the capability be blown out of proportion

I reckon in the long run , the coproduction of jft is one of the best things that has happened for paf aswell as pakistans aviation industry -- whatever maybe the reason e.g failure to get more f16s or m2ks

We had to start from the ground up sooner or later anyway.. better at this time , than 10 years from now ,when IAF would be fielding 5th gen fighters

However jft cant fill the slot for a fighter with better range/payload/radar ... and hopefully would not have to--- there are 2 schools of thought here ... some want paf to get a western fighter [rafale etc] which would be instant morale boosters -- while others think that one sanction prone fighter is enough and the other frontlinr fighter should be of chinese origin .... however its tougher to get a good fighter when your hands are tied behind your back due to crippling economy

first concentrate on economy, later fulfill all your requirements... instead of maintaining only weapons parity with India.....

 

[sancho]

This is the Gripen A/B. Dimensionally slightly smaller than the JF-17 but at least 700kg heavier! Advanced materials? Maybe for the C/D Gripen but looking at the A/B version, I find it hard to think it was superior to the Thunder.

Advanced materials are not only used to reduce weight right (RAM materials and coatings)?
Also you are mistaken, those specs are from Gripen C/D as you can see here:

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Doc...en/Gripen product sheet/Gripen_Dimensions.pdf

The empty weight is even from the twin seat version, while the single seat C has a weight of 6800Kg and the single seat A version, which is more comparable to the current JF 17 weighs only around 6600Kg. That means it is roughly 150Kgs heavier, but now comes the important part that you might have forgot. Gripens has around 6m² more wing area because of the big delta wings, also canards, an air brake, the additional coatings... So ALTHOUGH Gripen has all these additional airframe parts and materials that adds to the weight, it is just a bit more heavier than JF 17, because of the use of advanced materials. It gets even more obvious when you compare single engined J10 to twin engined Rafale.

However, my point wasn't the weight but that more advanced materials and coatings would have made JF 17 also more costly, but that wasn't the aim behind the development and with the Russian design consultants, the use of such materials was limited anyway.

other wise it has a better thrust/aerodynamics than earlier mirage2000 and gripen

Doubtful, especially the dry thrust TWRs might be hardly comparable to them, while especially the later has lower wingloadings + the canard advantage.

if PAF had gone through the french deal of 1.2 billion dollars for 50 thunder avionics, i am pretty sure the same people would have rated it much better...

For obvious reasons, the French EW systems (especially the export versions) a considered to be among the best in the world. HMS and the advantages of MICA IR with TVC and higher off boresight would have made JF 17 far better in WVR combats, not to forget that it could be used for passive BVR combats as well... You have to keep in mind that PAF asked for this weapons and techs, so they must had the view that they offer at least some advantages right?
As mentioned, China is catching up fast, but the currently available weapons and techs for JF 17 are not on par with latest western counterparts. That might change with JF 17 Block 3 or J10B, but we have to wait and and not speculate about it.

 

[nomi007]

can jf-17 thunder fire the RAAD missile

 

[Last Hope]

can jf-17 thunder fire the RAAD missile

Please go through recent, previous pages and find the answer.
It is yes.

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

can jf-17 thunder fire the RAAD missile

Can we rather not get you a temporary ban till you learn to use thread navigation links and the customized forum search feature?

 

[ziaulislam]

TWR ratio of jf-17 is better than gripen/ mirage2000 both dry and after burn.

there has been massive imporvement in chinese avionics recently, so i wounder even if we had the french door opened PAF might have opted for current avionics anyway.


the reason for going for J-10 is that j-10 suits a different role from thunder..

 

[soul hacker]

saw it on social network ....

 

[Tempest II]

saw it on social network ....

I labelled the ordinance and I believe I posted it on this very forum. It has just found it way back home = boomerang!

 

[razgriz19]

saw it on social network ....

its photoshoped

 

[MastanKhan]

JF-17 and gripen were based upon different design parameters..PAF liked f-16 and thus didnt opted for delta wing/canard design but his doesnt make the gripen/mirage2000 superior to thunder it only makes it different.

what people think that makes them superior is its avionics etc..and the very reason why jf-17 is rated low is the avionics,people still think that Chinese avionics are not upto the mark. reality is that we know nothing only the fact that thunder holds the latest Chinese developments and the fact that china is developing avionics for 5th gen aircrfts , that itself tells story...

other wise it has a better thrust/aerodynamics than earlier mirage2000 and gripen

if PAF had gone through the french deal of 1.2 billion dollars for 50 thunder avionics, i am pretty sure the same people would have rated it much better...

so issue is that chinese avionics are underrated, otherwise the IAF still thinks that mirage2000 as one of the best in their air force and people do consider gripen as world class aircrfts but thunder is considered by same people as no where near to them ..


i meant the trend among russians and especially indians,some pakistanis members..western analyst are already acknowledging chinese achievements

Hi,

I will take it to the ultimate level----the love of your life----you 9 months old daughter---your first born has a severe infection----she is terribly sick---the doctor says---you got one last shot----he has two medications---one made in sweden---the other made in china---the chinesemedicine costs Rs100----the swedish medicine costs Rs300----please take you pick.

As an aircraft in its development stage---the jf17 is a champion on its own merits---first the cost of the aircraft---. Then comes the packages---once the package is installed and the aircraft put thru its paces---you will have the answer to the next puzzle ( the ground strike capability )---the next step is the bvr package----so---in another 3 to 5 years time---you will have the complete report on the capabilities of this aircraft---the ground attack and the bvr---.

At this stage---this aircraft is being together in pieces---it is like a fill in the blanks as you keep moving----. The french denial of radar / electronics package has put a very serious dent in the operational capability of this aircraft---what was supposedly to be ready 2 years ago---won't be ready for another 2---3 years.

The grippen was all set and ready 9 years ago----Not directing this comment at you---but do you pakistanis know why you keep failing all the time in most of the things in life---you have no concept of time---you want to keep moving at your own pace----as you reach the point of interest 10 years later---you keep wondering why don't you see others besides you---why is this dust in the air suffocating you!!!