JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[LCA Tejas]

So, Russia needs India to "approve" it's decisions?

Nothing which costs our friendship....

 

[Kompromat]

Since the JF-17 uses Russian engines do you think it's possible it could use Russian radar? I think the zhuk-ae AESA would be a nice choice if India approved the sale (not likely), the zhuk has been quoted to have ranges from 160-200km.

I do not think so , because we do not want to get something that can be Blocked on India's plea .

Also the Indians would have access to Radar specs and countermeasures

We will rather install a Chinese AESA solution or European ie Vixen-1000e or Vixen-500 AESA.

Also the Engine would be replaced because we need an Engine with 100ktn Thrust most preferably ws-13 if it met the Requirements .

Thanks

 

[TaimiKhan]

Since the JF-17 uses Russian engines do you think it's possible it could use Russian radar? I think the zhuk-ae AESA would be a nice choice, the zhuk has been quoted to have ranges from 160-200km.

Well as said, JF-17 is a modular design, meaning the airframe is not dependent on any one specific radar. And in the initial time of its development the Kopyo-F series radar was said to be a possible contender.

And yups Zhuk would be a good choice, but as you know we can't get it.

And other thing is am not sure about the Zhuk radar diameter, and not sure if it can be fitted in the JF-17 due to the size of the nose cone or may be small sized variant may work.

 

[HORAS]

Yes, but AWACS are not that easy to be destroyed. They roam deep inside the territory, have fighter aircraft escort or planes are on stand by to help them, they have ECMs. And as per my own analysis & general rule, if they are inside or behind a good long range SAM system, then for any aircraft to reach the AWAC would be very tough rather near to impossible.

But yeah a Stealth fighter can do the job very easily.

Yes my friend, Stealth fighter will be present to both India and Israel in the next few years, India with Su-T-50 and Israel with f-35. both can shot down our AWACS, in addition this is not the only way to get AWACS, you can also use long range passive missals which tracking radar signal. Any way AWACS is not 100% protected like the past. At least it will has to fly in the safe place only and this will left some gaps in radar coverage, for Egypt, some the air battles most likely will happened above the Mediterranean sea or red sea far from air defense, in that case the RCS and radar rang and ARHM missiles will make all the different. Any way, this is not far from the near future, Israel already made contract with UAS for 25 F-35 with option to raise number to 75 plane.

Best Regards

 

[sancho]

The initial J-17 prototypes nose cone was of about 600mm, meaning 60cm, and in the 4th prototype the nose was enlarged to 640mm.

If you check the pictures of older prototypes and the newer version you can easily spot the difference between the diameter size.

And the KLJ-7 radar specifications were about 4-5 years ago, when initially it was said to be for JF-17. 4-5 years are more then enough to increase its specifications and effectiveness.

My rough idea or guess by looking at the nose cone and Chinese radar development, JF-17s radar must be with a look up range of something like 120KM+, but the RCS detection capability would be the real thing to be seen. Is it 5m2, 3m2 or 1m2 target RCS.

It is qouted with >105km for targets of 5m², so your figure could be right.

And other thing is am not sure about the Zhuk radar diameter, and not sure if it can be fitted in the JF-17 due to the size of the nose cone or may be small sized variant may work.

If your specs above are right, Zhuk radars should fit too:

Zhuk ME - 624mm
Zhuk AE (at least the early version) - 575mm

Last year there was a report here, that Zhuk ME and an upgraded RD93 would be on offer for JF 17 (I guess block 2), so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

 

[ptldM3]

We will rather install a Chinese AESA solution or European ie Vixen-1000e or Vixen-500 AESA.

The Vixen has a range of 65km why would you want that

Isn't Pakistan looking at some French systems?

Also the Engine would be replaced because we need an Engine with 100ktn Thrust most preferably ws-13 if it met the Requirements .

Thanks

ktn is kn correct? There is cerrently no engine that i'm aware of that can produce 100 kn that is small enough to fit in the JF-17.

Even the Typhoon's EJ-200 produce 90 km. From my reasearch on the WS-13 i have found that it produces 86 kn and needs an overhaul every 800 hours, on the other hand the RD-33MK produces 88 kn and needs an overhoul every 4,000 hours, that alone should be reason enough.

Now when looking at some of the engine options we have the options of:

Rafale's M88-2: 75kn

Typhoon's EJ-22: 90kn

RD-33MK: 88kn

WS-13: 86kn

 

[BATMAN]

^^ RD33 will gain good repution in the hands of PAF... otherwise indians made very bad PR for RD33.
The Indian Air Force (InAF) MiG-29 Experience:
in the article it said..... 90% of indian RD33 failed before reaching the first overhaul of 300 hrs.!

For JF-17....indications are that it will remain RD93 for some time until some competitor comes up with better proposal!
It can be technical as blackblood mentioned with higher thrust 100kn or commercial....could be WS13 or both perhaps... EJ/M88 etc.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

what is the thrust rate of RD-93??

 

[BATMAN]

Yes my friend, Stealth fighter will be present to both India and Israel in the next few years, India with Su-T-50 and Israel with f-35. both can shot down our AWACS, in addition this is not the only way to get AWACS, you can also use long range passive missals which tracking radar signal. Any way AWACS is not 100% protected like the past. At least it will has to fly in the safe place only and this will left some gaps in radar coverage, for Egypt, some the air battles most likely will happened above the Mediterranean sea or red sea far from air defense, in that case the RCS and radar rang and ARHM missiles will make all the different. Any way, this is not far from the near future, Israel already made contract with UAS for 25 F-35 with option to raise number to 75 plane.

Best Regards

No neither will happen... as of today both mentioned countries does not even know the price of T-50 and f-35 respectively.
Where as development of T-50 is not yet complete.

Sorry but from your post it seems you are considering AWACS as radars only!
No sir... AWACS is more of a control system of battel management, which can be ground based as well! it's just the same but little advance and airborne too!
Normal fighter aircrafts flying far away can relay its own radar results to it.

 

[BATMAN]

what is the thrust rate of RD-93??

Thrust is a torque and in SI units is measured in Kilo Newtons.
YOu can find RD33 thrust information on web with simple search... I hope next time you will act responsible and not waist time of other members with such questions........any how:

Principal specifications of RD-33:

Full afterburning performance (H=0, М=0):
thrust, kgf8300
Maximum performance without afterburning (H=0, М=0):
thrust, kgf5040
Length, mm4230
Maximum diameter, mm1040
Weight, kg 1055

 

[TaimiKhan]

It is qouted with >105km for targets of 5m², so your figure could be right.

Yeah the figure was quoted by the official manufacturers when it was shown to the world. But its been nearly 4-5 years since then, hopefully the specifications would have been much improved by now, becoz as per inside information, the JF-17s with PAF do not have the original KLJ-7 radars, but something else and much better.

If your specs above are right, Zhuk radars should fit too:

Zhuk ME - 624mm
Zhuk AE (at least the early version) - 575mm

Last year there was a report here, that Zhuk ME and an upgraded RD93 would be on offer for JF 17 (I guess block 2), so I wouldn't completely rule it out.

Yeah heard the news too, but impossible. Most probably a deliberate rumor was leaked by the Russians, as last year India was tilted a lot towards the west and had ordered a lot of equipment from them, so hope you can understand the tactic behind such a rumor.

Russians would never give it to us, not in decades to come unless something drastically changes.

 

[TaimiKhan]

The Vixen has a range of 65km why would you want that

Isn't Pakistan looking at some French systems?

Yups Pakistan is looking for french avionics, an as for Vixen if PAF goes for them, they would be the improved ones with increased range. Again as said, these specifications are old ones, its been years since they got updated and Italians are very much in the competition for the next batch of avionics, as they have been good suppliers to us over the years.

ktn is kn correct? There is cerrently no engine that i'm aware of that can produce 100 kn that is small enough to fit in the JF-17.

Its basically kN, 1 kN equals 101.97162 kilograms of load.

As of now only GE F414 engine with 98kN after burning comes near the 100kN range, but as we say impossible to get it.

So for now RD-93 is better, if we can get an advanced version with around 90kN thrust variant in future, it will be more then enough, but reliability of the spare parts would be an issue, hope China will keep open the supply.

Even the Typhoon's EJ-200 produce 90 km. From my reasearch on the WS-13 i have found that it produces 86 kn and needs an overhaul every 800 hours, on the other hand the RD-33MK produces 88 kn and needs an overhoul every 4,000 hours, that alone should be reason enough.

Well am not sure for the 800 hour figure, as WS-13 official data has not yet been released, so talking about such figures would be kind of early.

Now when looking at some of the engine options we have the options of:

Rafale's M88-2: 75kn

Typhoon's EJ-22: 90kn

RD-33MK: 88kn

WS-13: 86kn

Western ones are all good, but impossible to get for now, much expensive and much prone to sanctions.

So my choice would be a Chinese and Russian mixture both, if we don;t have much of logistical issues. A russian with 90 or more kN and a Chinese also with something around 90 or more kN would be the best option. The more we buy, the more the manufacturers will do research and come up with a much better engine.

Just look at RD series, gone from something in early 80kNs to now around 90kN. The MK series is already 88kN, so i believe the next variant is gonna be 90+kN.

Hope the russians sell it to us, as JF-17 has a very bright future.

 

[HORAS]

No neither will happen... as of today both mentioned countries does not even know the price of T-50 and f-35 respectively.
Where as development of T-50 is not yet complete.

Sorry but from your post it seems you are considering AWACS as radars only!
No sir... AWACS is more of a control system of battel management, which can be ground based as well! it's just the same but little advance and airborne too!
Normal fighter aircrafts flying far away can relay its own radar results to it.

Dear Friend,

The case for F-35 id deferent, it is operational plane, Israel will receive its first one in 2013 I think. It became matter fact.

Regards

 

[Dazzler]

Friends, there is a reason why Pakistan is pushing French for top notch equipment. The previous offer by Sagem was not exactly what PAF wanted and this time, French have assured that all the required equipment will be given. I mentioned in a thread what exactly PAF was looking for thunder. The plan is that we are looking for a specialized variant with best of the class equipment that WILL be more advanced than the Block 52s. Numbers will not exceed 100 units initially. Many people underestimate Chinese avionics by calling them inferior whereas this is not the case at all. PAF so far is very satisfied with current configuration of avionics and radar.

 

[Dazzler]

All the talk regarding a security clause included in the contract is right because the level of sensitivity of technology in the package is a definite point of concern for some countries. It will also enable PAF to have a very effective yet nominal cost fighter aircraft which is not accepted to our neighbor. So far, France is not bowing to US or Indian pressure but they are concerned as the technology might end up in China, hence, the clause. But equipment is coming for sure.