JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Hasnain2009]

Higher thrust doesn't means more maneuverable.

It depends on the design more.

ok...so do u mean new F-16's designs are inferior to old F-16s in maneuverability?

But i think thrust also matters

 

[TaimiKhan]

ok...so do u mean new F-16's designs are inferior to old F-16s in maneuverability?

But i think thrust also matters

Well we all know throughout the life cycle of a plane, small design changes are done to make improvements in the flying characteristics.

Look at Mig-21s, you will find changes in Russian made ones, and then if you check the Chinese J-7 models, you will see changes in its design as time goes by. Compare the wing designs of F-7P & F-7PG, you will see the difference.

Similarly F-16s may have gone through some design changes for improving its flying characteristics in the maneuverability section or some other purpose.

I did not said newer F-16s design is inferior to old ones, but with time F-16s role has been given a look and changes made as per requirement. Weight increase / reductions may have been seen, some slight changes in design may have been done to make it suitable for other roles also.

Yes thrust may matter, but if the design is not suitable enough for maneuverability or is limited t, then no matter what engine you have, the aircraft will be have limited maneuverability.

Lets suppose all the F-16s models have the same designed airframe. JF-17 is beating F-16 A/B models in simulated dog fights, thus implying that JF-17s is better then F-16s in maneuverability, so even if the newer F-16 models have higher thrust engine, due to design limitation it will have the same AoA as per the older F-16 models.

 

[Arsalan]

Hi,

Thankyou sir---a very interesting and revealing picture of the sd10a---so much information printed on the side---.

The missile itself says 70 km max range---some sites report it as 100 km + as well as many aposters.

it is the reported SD-10 B that is said to have improved range of upto 100Km as far as i have studied!

regards!

 

[araz]

the fear is that JFT would become the 'MiG-21' of the 21st century so that is why every 'hurdle' will be created by its competitors.

fatman
This would be purely a business decision. Where big money is involved, you know better than me that all scruples get left behind in the office drawers. Every big power has done it and as new providers we have to bear the brunt of this before we establish our selves. The point in our favour is that we are partnering China which is a big power house in its own rights. However when we move out of the current chinese sphere of influence, we will invariably face problems. With Thunder the initial vibes are very encouraging and we need to see how things evolve. One good thing in our favour is that currently , we can ensure uninterrupted supply without any sanctions, which will stand us in good stead with certain parties. The fact that even Turlkey appears to be interested speaks a lot for thunder's capabilities.
Araz

 

[Patriot]

Taimikhan is right - The Old F16's A/B are most maneuverable F-16's ever built (except for F16XL which remained a prototype).F16 Block52 are heavy and Block 60 is even heavier.

 

[araz]

That is true..depending on any radar warning receiver on the target aircraft it would be too late to out maneuver or out run the missile..hence I believe who sees whom first is very important and of course the range of missile, capability of the aircraft, counter measures and altitude of the planes make up the rest of the parameters for a successful kill

May I suggest an addition to your post.Yes whosoever sees whom first may matter as you are already homing in on the target.However 3 things need to be taken into account.In the indo Pak theatre there will be AWACs and thereforethe range of the planes individual radar will matter less. Also where it comes to a One on one, as long as you have a decent range on your radar, you will always have the time to shoot more or less simultaneously. Thirdly the last factor in the equation will be the killing range of the BVR AAM. If this is longer , you may shoot before the other aircraft.
My 2 paisas worth.
Araz

 

[Patriot]

There is no doubt dogfights will happen as the indo pak bases are just too close to borders.Situational Awareness on both sides.Thanks to massive AWACs and GCI Network.

 

[araz]

Boy that JF-17 was prototype, was flying with limitations.

Hasnain.
I would have expected better from a senior poster like you. He asked a genuine question. there was no need for this.
Kind regards
Araz

 

[Hasnain2009]

Hasnain.
I would have expected better from a senior poster like you. He asked a genuine question. there was no need for this.
Kind regards
Araz

ok..sorry i didnt meant to offend anyone

 

[mean_bird]

Three guidance modes for the SD-10! I take it the "datalink correction" is the midcourse update.

Hi,

Thankyou sir---a very interesting and revealing picture of the sd10a---so much information printed on the side---.

The missile itself says 70 km max range---some sites report it as 100 km + as well as many aposters.

But it is what that comes out of the horses mouth which is important. For an aircraft the size of JF 17---. Now---are the chinese under selling it----maybe---but most of the time---the chinese oversell what they have.

Mastan Sahib,

Firstly, it is "greater than or equal to" 70 km and it says "operation range" not "max range".

So I don't think its a matter of over or under-statement. The operation usage range is probably about 70km while if you fire at max distance from the most suitable position--because BVR range is determined by the aircraft itself like if its firing from altitude, AoA, etc. -- it could be around 100km.

So the operation range is more important since it presents a more realistic situation. But as I mentioned previously, in reality the missiles are fired from a much shorter range to maximize kill probability.

 

[Arsalan]

JF-17 Thunder Aircraft, a success story of Pakistan, China: Air Chief
ISLAMABAD, July 19 (APP): Pakistan’s Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has said that the co-development and co-production of JF-17 Thunder Aircraft by Pakistan and China is a success story and the two countries will continue cooperating in the field of Aviations in future. He was speaking on the occasion of Farnbrough Air Show 2010, said a press release issued here on Monday. Pakistan’s two JF-17 Thunder fighter planes are participating in the show. The aircraft has been co-developed and co-produced by Pakistan Air Force and China Aviation Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC).



Pakistan Air Force delegation is headed by Air Vice Marshal Muhammad Arif, SI(M), S.Bt. The two aircraft have been flown to the UK by Wing Commander Khalid and Sqnldr. Leader Azkaar.
The Chief of Air Staff is currently visiting UK on the invitation of Roya Air Force. The air Chief held meetings with the President CATIC Mr.Li Yu Haiand Vice President Aviation Industry of China (AVIC) Mr. Li Yu Hai and visitedjoint Stall setup by CATIC and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra and signedthe visitors book.
Pakistan Air Force and CATIC have co-developed and co-produced the JF-17 Thunder aircraft which is being unveiled for the first time at the FarnboroughAir Show.
The JF-17 Thunder is an all weather, multi-role, light combat aircraft.
Its design is based on modern concepts of aerodynamics and is equipped with hybrid fly-by-wire flight control system.
The aircraft has a full glass cockpit, excellent man-machine interface and modern self-protection suite, which gives it a good combat potential and ensures its survivability in high threat combat environments. It is equipped with fourth generation avionics systems, wide range of conventional/smart weapons.
Beyond Visual Range & short range air-to-air missiles, and air-to-surface missiles, the aircraft also has a remarkably short
take-off/landing distance that gives it the flexibility to operate from short airfields.
Shortly, the aircraft will also have the air-to-air refuelling capability which will further enhance its combat potential and
employment options.
First proto type of the JF-17 aircraft flew in September,2003. After flight testing, a Small Batch of 08 aircraft was produced in year 2007 and ,finally, serial production of the aircraft was started in Pakistan in the year 2009. So far 16 aircraft have been produced.
The JF-17 aircraft will be produced in blocks of 50 aircraft each where every succeeding block would be an upgraded version of the preceding block.
Pakistan’s share in co-production of the airframe of JF-17 aircraft would be more than 50 percent. Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, has the capacity to roll-out 15-25 aircraft per year.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and CATIC IS proud to offer a cost-defective, highly potent, multi-role combat aircraft
which is capable of meeting the challenges of present and future warfare.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - JF-17 Thunder Aircraft, a success story of Pakistan, China: Air Chief

regards!

 

[kursed]

Then I believe either.. 1. MAWs is still not operational on JF-17s but undergoing testing on FC-1.

OR

2. It's some other sensor of sorts.

Look here (notice the serial numbers).

P.S.
If you have access to a picture of an operational PAF JF-17 carrying the sensor that you've shown me on the FC-1, do share it please.

here plzz read the below link, this is the Chinese SE-2 MAWS system and the sensor in the JF-17 should be something like this, optical sensor, while in my above posted links pictures you will see them to be closed. Thus you can't see the optical sensors.

SE-2 Airborne Missile Approach Warning System - SinoDefence.com

Plus some pics of JF-17s, you can see black spots in those MAWS sensors housing, while at Farnbrough we saw nothing, just simple metal.

And now here compare the J-11B MAWS sensors with the picture of the optical sensor clearly being seen in the JF-17 tail specifying MAWS.

J-11B MAWS

JF-17 MAWS

 

[Dazzler]

Sometimes what is being shown to the outside world is not what the operator itself may be using.

Export variant may be different compared to the PAF variant.

Also, simulator layout and the things being shown in them are different then what is in the real cockpit.

And these 2 planes are from the operational Sqd of the PAF, you can see the MAWS sensors missing from the tail section, which may have been removed deliberately.

That is a very valid point Taimi !

PAF variant has quite a few tricks up its sleeves and time will tell what they are. As for exports, the policy is not to make it a so called "monkey version" but it will still be a fully capable Multirole Fighter with a capable radar, avionics, datalink, fbw, and complete electronic warfare and weapons package. WMD-7 is a surprise package to most as this is a third gen of LDP, IR sensor and is as capable as any western LDP out there. Just a matter of what systems a customer wants in their JFTs/ FC-1s. One correction though, MAWS is operational on JFT since 2007 and what we see in these pics is just the protective lid to cover sensitive sensor heads.

 

[SQ8]

And.. that isnt your baseline se-2 MAWS either.
What somehow has been left out of all of this discussion is the lack of a picture detailing the location of the Flare/Chaff ejector ports.
Which means more sheet metal is in place covering them as well or they have not been installed as of yet.

 

[Dazzler]

It is the SE-2 and was also shown in avionics display pics here a month or so ago. It is an efficient MAWS system and provides complete situation awareness to the pilot from any in coming threat by visual warnings on HUD and MFD and acoustic alarm and automatically activates Chaff and Flares as per the threat identification. Originally developed for J-11, it is now operational on JFT, J-10 b.