What's new

JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

Status
Not open for further replies.
THUNDER WILL ONLY FACE

SU30MKI
mig29 smt
mirage2000-5
MMRCA
lca tejas

" No body including the mods have highlighted that by the time PAF have 200+ Thunders which will take 7-10 years the IAF will have a completely different fleet as of today. "

All five planes metioned which will be the only planes in service will either superior techology ie 400 su30mki/mmrca or equal 200+ mig29smt/k/ mirage2000-5 , LCA tejas

I am merely pointing out that to face off the PROJECTED IAF of 2020 FAR MORE FC20s and more block52 block60 F16s will be prudent
You are talking as if Paf will be in possession of thunders only... :lol: .
you are conveniently ignoring the fact that PAF intends to equip the next block of JF-17 with European tech which will definitely make them more potent then the already are, your self made numerical standings of mmrca are highly subjective & there fore worthy enough to be discredited. you are assuming as if PAF progress will go static because India has become too modern to keep pace with :rofl:
 
Heres a really balance article on the FC1/Thunder.

Its not chinease or Pakistan. BUT NEUTRAL

Pakistan’s JF-17 Fighter Program



Interesting notes taken.

Good Points.
Cost
150 required minimum
13 countries looked at Thunder
Russia will supply engines despite Indian efforts to sabotage

Not so good points.
SMOKEY ENGINE TRIALS
cannot use GPS weapons
plaaf not yet committed to the project
Pakistans budget may restrict orders to less than 150

Theres lots of other points plz read and enjoy.
 
Last edited:
Storm force

You really are an unbelievable man as you have two habits that you repeat through out the forum.

1. List of Indian fighter procurement and include future ones with current ones

2. Attempt to prove that jf-17 is nothing in terms of capability and PAF made a poor decision after its entire TOP BRASS was involved in the project.


I do not have to convince you but Chinese came up with super 7 and PAF proposed all the changes including DSI and EW housing. All the innovation you see in current bird is PAF's innovation and since China is by far our best friend, they gave the positive nod every time we suggested an improvisation.

I will be thankful if you write after you read and think on this topic and please do not make it yet another VS or COMPARISON thread as you have done this more than once.

Regards
 

SMOKEY ENGINE TRIALS
Man it was very old news when the Thunder leaves behind the smoky trails but th thunders which are now inducted in PAF are not having any smoke trail problem.

cannot use GPS weapons
GPS weapon if PAF requires tht it will be added or even might be added and it was not made public .or if not added till now it will be added in the next block of JF17.

plaaf not yet committed to the project
PLAAF the thing is its like told as million times before tht JF17 dont fit the role of PLAAF . and btw there is sum news tht PLAAF might get JF17 after it will be sucessfully installed with WS13.

Pakistans budget may restrict orders to less than 150
I dont think it is really a problem ,Fund can be daviated from other project to get more JF's coz Nations Defence is more important than anything.so i dont think if PAF needs more Thunders they gonna face any financial problems.
 
Pakistans budget may restrict orders to less than 150

Theres lots of other points plz read and enjoy.

As Rohail Malhi has answered all of your obsolete and old questions, which infact has been answered thousand of times, even then let me answer above quoted part of your post...

As cost of one JF17 is 15 million USD, as you posted, and let us consider 25 JF17 Thunders to be produced each year then cost per year will be 375 million USDs. Even assume the cost of JF17 to be 20 million USD then total cost year turns out to be 500 million USDs...
This is easily affordable...Then how can you say that Pakistan's budget may restrict orders to less than 150?
 
You did not choose to respond on engines -- will Pakistan be able to rectify engine issues ? I am not talking about petty maintenance issues but the real complex ones. Icecold i have been long enough on this forum to know that Kamra has begun production of avionics -- but what kind of avionics are we talking about ? avionics covers a wide range of spectrum -- right from Hud - to as complex as radar. Hope you get the drift ! There is a difference when you are a co production partner and when you solely are producing your own fighter. For all the bonding going on for F35 programme , britan still doesnt have the techinical know how of many of the components !

The reason i did not choose to respond to it was not because i could not but rather to what avail. It is very obvious from the know all attitudes of majority of the Indians at this forum that they know everything about Pakistan and what ever they say must be true in all aspects. That kind of attitude leaves little or nothing for debate.
By the way your earlier post mentioned about avionics and that is why i replied to it.

Here is a link about Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and there expertise:
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the same article let me post something to save you the trouble

The Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF), formerly known as P-741, is dedicated to the overhaul of French origin military aircraft in service with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), the Dassault Mirage III and Mirage V combat aircraft. Overhaul and manufacturing services were utilized by other countries with French Mirage aircraft in service. This factory also grew to service and overhaul the Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofan engines belonging to the F-16 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft of the PAF.

This is just a small part of what PAC is capable of doing. Rectifying an engine issue does not even count. That is why to this day we have the mirages flying and that is how those F-16s remained our main stray fighter even with the US sanctions. JF-17 does not even fall in the same list as we will never face any problem even remotely close to what we must have faced with the F-16s due to sanctions.
So your argument about sending engine else where to rectify an issue is invalid and shows your ignorance over the subject.

And yes dont bother replying as we are done here. There is no need for me to further drag the issue.
 
Kid,

You are a live at home---going to high school---dependant on your parents---guaranteed---. A professional is never shy and afraid to state what he does.

Your roots are so deep that you still cannot afford to move away from home----. You think ypu are the first one over here with these credentials---at least 200 of them before you.

Good luck with your high school son---.:pakistan::pakistan::pakistan:

What is this fixation with kids. I think you have been facing off with kids too much on this forum who you can impress with ill informed and halfbaked ideas you pick up on the internet. But just for the record I have not lived with my parents since the 80s, I am not a student, I have already told you what I do. I am very hesitant to give details of what I do because people will think that I am either lying or trying to show-off. I work for major global organizations and influence and drive decisions at the enterprise level impacting 1000s of lives and billions of dollars. On the side I run an NGO that runs schools and hospitals in Pakistan providing free treatment and education to thousands. I am also regularly asked to speak at international forums and have an advisory role with certain governments. As I said my background or what I am in real life should not be of any consequence of what I write on any forum. I do this mostly for entertainment or when I am bored. The amount of detail I have provided is more than I have ever on a forum and have done this only becuase you insist and intent is not to upstage anyone. If there are 1000s of folks with such background on this forum, I am very happy because atleast I will be dealing with people of comparable intelect and knowledge.
 
Hi,

After the 2002 scenario Musharraf stated that pak had no delievery system in place for the nukes---and that is on record---a big surprise to everyone---the nuke would have been buried under dirt enroute of advancing indian army---or on a flat bed of a truck.

His statement can be found. That was seemingly one of the biggest bluffs that pak played on the world.

The pressler amendment had been presented to the president Reagan many a times---pushed hard by the indian lobby congressman Steven Solariz was with Pressler and was firmly behind this issue---everyone remembers Pressler---but no one knows Steven Solariz---the real poison---in control by the indian lobby and openly working for the indian lobby.

Any way---when the amendment would came to Reagan---he would ask---does pakistan has anything that says atom bomb on the side----the reply would be no----the amendment would be squashed---Reagan had enough political clout to take out any challenge from any senator or congresssman---when Bush came into power---he was cornered---he didnot have the same savy as that of Reagan---got cornered and had to sign.

Paks knew the sanctions were coming---but didnot want to believe it---fatalism.

About the A Q Khan issue---Pak got cocky after 9/11and forgot what india was feeling about this new found relation of U S and pak---india was left down---but incidently not out.

If pak could have understood this loneliness of india after 9/11 and taken care of the business properly and handled itself better and acted upon the issues pro-actively---A Q Khan would have been a dead issue---.

Strategically pakistan failed one more time in analysing the situation properly---playing america for a fool---in the earlly years of the war---trying to milk america for weapons systems and trade---pakistan went for the deception---fake millitary / frontier corps strikes against the al qaeda----two days war and twenty day peace---letting the terrorists escape----pak millitary generals making a piece meal out of their soldiers and oficers---playing games over the slaughtered bodies of their soldiers---.

What a price to pay for pakistan----if they would have understood the game right from day one and done their job that they chose to---pakistan would have been in a totally different position than where it is today---.

Lesson learnt if there is any---do not sell your enemy short---dodnot take india for granted---if you agree to---then do the bidding with a 110% efficiency.



You have no idea how political games work. The type of statement by Musharraf you are referring too was a political statement and was mean't to cool down things and distract attention. The reality is the Pakistan had a device ready in 1987 but its existence was not announced until 1998. Following is an section written on Pakistan nuclear program based on publically available information. It was published in Defence Journal in 2004. Since then lot of water as flowed under the brideg. It clearly states that a deliverable device was ready before 1990. I know for a fact that PAF A5s were practising toss bombing techniques for nuclear weapons delivery way back in the 80s. By 2002, the year you quote we had even developed missile delvery capability.

Problem with you is that you have very little knowledge on the subject you pretend to be an expert on. I suggest you should be a little more humble and stop pretending.

"Preparing to Build the Bomb

Pakistani work on weapon design began even before the start of work on uranium enrichment, under the auspices of the PAEC. Mr. Munir Ahmad Khan, Chairman PAEC called a meeting, in March, 1974, to initiate work on an atomic bomb. Among those attending the meeting were Hafeez Qureshi, head of the Radiation and Isotope Applications Division (RIAD) at PINSTECH (later to become Member Technical, PAEC), Dr. Abdus Salam, then Adviser for Science and Technology to the Government of Pakistan and Dr. Riaz-ud-Din, Member (Technical), PAEC. The PAEC Chairman informed Qureshi that he was to work on a project of national importance with another expert, Dr. Zaman Sheikh, then working with the Defence Science and Technology Organization (DESTO). The word “bomb” was never used in the meeting but Qureshi exactly understood the objective. Their task would be to develop the design of a weapon implosion system. The project would be located at Wah, appropriately next to the Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF), in the North West Frontier Province and conveniently close to Islamabad.

The work at Wah began under the undescriptive codename Research and Qureshi, Zaman and their team of engineers and scientists came to be known as “The Wah Group”. Initial work was limited to research and development of the explosive lenses to be used in the nuclear device. This expanded, however to include chemical, mechanical and precision engineering of the system and the triggering mechanisms. It procured equipment where it could and developed its own technology where restrictions prevented the purchase of equipment.

The first preparations for eventual nuclear tests also started early - in 1976. Dr. Ishfaq Ahmad, and Member (Technical) and Dr. Samar Mubarak of the PAEC were dispatched to Balochistan to conduct helicopter reconnaissance of potential test sites with the assistance of the army 5 Corps located at Quetta. Over a span of three days, the PAEC scientists made several reconnaissance tours of the area between Turbat, Awaran and Khuzdar in the south and Naukundi-Kharan in the east.

The PAEC requirement was for a mountain with a completely dry interior capable of withstanding an internal 20 kt nuclear explosion. A likely site was found in the form of a several hundred-metre tall granite mountain Koh Kambaran in the Ras Koh range (also referred to as the Ras Koh Hills). The Ras Koh in the Chagai Division of Balochistan rise at their highest point to 3009 metres. After a one-year survey of the site, completed in 1977, plans were finalized for driving a horizontal tunnel under Koh Kambaran for a future test. (Brig. Muhammad Sarfraz, who had provided support to the PAEC survey team, was tasked by (now) President Zia-ul-Haq in 1977 with creating and leading the Special Development Works (SDW), which was entrusted, with the task of preparing the nuclear test sites. The SDW was formally subordinate to the PAEC but directly reported to the Chief of the Army Staff. Meetings between SDW and PAEC officials and Zia-ul-Haq led to the decision to prepare a second site for a horizontal shaft. The site selected was located at Kharan, in a desert valley between the Ras Koh Hills to the north and Siahan Range to the south. Subsequently, the Chagai-Ras Koh-Kharan areas became restricted entry zones and were closed to the public.

The Wah Group had a weapon design - an implosion system using the powerful but sensitive HMX as the principal explosive - ready for testing in 1983. The first “cold test” of a weapon (i.e. a test of the implosion using inert natural uranium instead of highly enriched uranium) took place on March 11, 1983 under the leadership of Dr. Ishfaq Ahmed of the PAEC. This test was conducted in tunnels bored in the Kirana Hills near Sargodha, home of the Pakistan Air Force's main air base and the Central Ammunition Depot (CAD).

The Kirana Hills test tunnels were reportedly bored by the SDW after the Chagai nuclear test sites, i.e. sometime between 1979 and 1983. As in Chagai, the tunnels had been sealed after construction to await tests. As Prior to the cold tests, an advance team opened and cleaned the tunnels.

After clearing the tunnels, a PAEC diagnostic team headed by Dr. Mubarakmand arrived on the scene with trailers fitted with computers and diagnostic equipment. This was followed by the arrival of the Wah Group with the nuclear device, in sub-assembly form. This was assembled and then placed inside the tunnel. A monitoring system was set up with around 20 cables linking various parts of the device with oscillators in diagnostic vans parked near the Kirana Hills.

One of the principal objectives of the test was to determine whether the neutron initiator (probably a polonium beryllium design similar to those used in the first US, USSR, UK, and Indian bombs) to reliably start a fission chain reaction in the real bomb. However, when the button was pushed, most of the wires connecting the device to the oscilloscopes were severed due to errors committed in the preparation of the cables. At first, it was thought that the device had malfunctioned but closer scrutiny of two of the oscilloscopes confirmed that the neutrons had indeed been produced. A second cold test was undertaken soon afterwards which was witnessed by Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Lt. Gen. K.M. Arif and Munir Ahmed Khan.

Between 1983 and 1990, the Wah Group developed an air deliverable bomb and conducted more than 24 cold tests of nuclear devices with the help of mobile diagnostic equipment. These tests were carried out in 24 tunnels measuring 100-150 feet (30-50 m) in length which were bored inside the Kirana Hills. Later due to excessive US intelligence and satellite attention on the Kirana Hills site, it was abandoned and the cold test facility was shifted to the Kala-Chitta Range. The bomb was small enough to be carried under the wing of a fighter/bomber such as the F-16 which Pakistan had obtained from the US. The Wah Group worked alongside the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to evolve and perfect delivery techniques of the nuclear bomb using combat aircraft including “conventional freefall”, “loft bombing”, “toss bombing” and “low-level laydown” attack techniques, the latter requiring a sophisticated high speed parachute system. Today, the PAF has perfected all four techniques of nuclear weapons delivery using F-16, Mirage-V and A-5 combat aircraft."

This one is from a speech give my Dr Samar Mabarek Mund

For every country in the world, which produces this bomb, the first one is very large and very unwieldy and not suitable for deliverable weapons. So the miniaturization or the quantisation of the weapon, should we do it now or wait for a hot test? We went to the Government and said we are ready and we want to do a hot test. The then President said no, it is not the right time and so we had to abide by that decision.

We decided to keep on working on better and better designs and since 1983, over the last 15 years, I must really confess and congratulate the theoretical physicists at PAEC, lead by Dr. Masud, in that they designed one sample after the other. After every 18 months or 2 years or so, we would have a new design and would perform a cold test on that. The success rate in every cold test was 100 percent. Sometimes we started thinking that our diagnostic people are giving us positive results all the time. At least we should fail some time.

Maybe our electronics are faulty and giving us detected neutrons. Probably they are spurious counts but the success was so consistent that we started disbelieving our diagnostic people. Anyway, one design after the other kept coming out, we manufactured the bombs, tested them and were successful.

We came through a series of 4 or 5 designs and then we came up with a model, which we would say, and our generation of people in the PAEC would claim that is the state-of-the-art.
Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info
 
Last edited:
by the time PAF have 200+ Thunders which will take 7-10 years the IAF will have a completely different fleet as of today. "

All five planes metioned which will be the only planes in service will either superior techology ie 400 su30mki/mmrca or equal 200+ mig29smt/k/ mirage2000-5 , LCA tejas

Excellent point ... In manufacturing and specially defence manufacturing there is always a strategic R&D team which continuously works on further improving the final product to stay competitive.

Our facilities in Kamra and PAF over all is one of the best in this world so trust me all of these issues have been looked at and addressed. PAF will not sure its plans and strategy with everyone but I can assure you that avionics and everything else will be far different in 2015 from today.
 
Not so good points.
SMOKEY ENGINE TRIALS
cannot use GPS weapons
plaaf not yet committed to the project
Pakistans budget may restrict orders to less than 150

Theres lots of other points plz read and enjoy.

Thanks but this article completly ignore the capabilities of PAF's R&D. As I stated above our final product will not be the JF-17 from today but it will be a far advanced jet.

PLAAF has already benefitted from JF-17 in different ways so it doesn't matter if they have a squadran or not.
 
What is this fixation with kids. I think you have been facing off with kids too much on this forum who you can impress with ill informed and halfbaked ideas you pick up on the internet. But just for the record I have not lived with my parents since the 80s, I am not a student, I have already told you what I do. I am very hesitant to give details of what I do because people will think that I am either lying or trying to show-off. I work for major global organizations and influence and drive decisions at the enterprise level impacting 1000s of lives and billions of dollars. On the side I run an NGO that runs schools and hospitals in Pakistan providing free treatment and education to thousands. I am also regularly asked to speak at international forums and have an advisory role with certain governments. As I said my background or what I am in real life should not be of any consequence of what I write on any forum. I do this mostly for entertainment or when I am bored. The amount of detail I have provided is more than I have ever on a forum and have done this only becuase you insist and intent is not to upstage anyone. If there are 1000s of folks with such background on this forum, I am very happy because atleast I will be dealing with people of comparable intelect and knowledge.

Sir,

If you are a professional then act like one---professionals know how to behave wen they enter anew place----you are walking in here with your sword swinging and slashing around----coming here with a holier than thou---I know it all attitiude----what did you really think how you would be accepted.


There are 25000 plus mebers on this board---and if everyone came here with your attitude and started swinging around---there would be a brawl----so even though you maybe what you claim to be----please have an attitude adjustment---.

You may have heard from others----but one of my dear relatives was a principal at reactor school and Samar and Bashir were junior to him---. I remember it was 1973 and I visited nylore with him----all the way inside the reactor building.

This detail that you are talking about has been known and buried deep on this forum years ago---.

Get of your high horse and come smell thedirt---there have been many before you who came aswining and then were gone before you blinked an eye.
 
Sir,

If you are a professional then act like one---professionals know how to behave wen they enter anew place----you are walking in here with your sword swinging and slashing around----coming here with a holier than thou---I know it all attitiude----what did you really think how you would be accepted.


There are 25000 plus mebers on this board---and if everyone came here with your attitude and started swinging around---there would be a brawl----so even though you maybe what you claim to be----please have an attitude adjustment---.

You may have heard from others----but one of my dear relatives was a principal at reactor school and Samar and Bashir were junior to him---. I remember it was 1973 and I visited nylore with him----all the way inside the reactor building.

This detail that you are talking about has been known and buried deep on this forum years ago---.

Get of your high horse and come smell thedirt---there have been many before you who came aswining and then were gone before you blinked an eye.

I am not on this forum to get into a debate with kids so don't feel paranoid that I am coming after you personally for some reason. I am only correcting wrong statements being posted on the site, which I think will improve the quality of discussion on this forum and hence improve its credibility. I have corrected you with facts and you have responded by coming up with totally unrelated items and non-issues. You were wrong on the SD-10s, wrong on the deliverability of Pakistan's nukes, wrong on JF17s, wrong on M2Ks. I know the information that I have posted in nothing new on this or any other forum, so howcome you are so ill informed. I think you are simply reacting to me because I have exposed your level of knowledge and understanding of defence matters. BTW I cannot share my access to people associated with Pakistan nuclear program in an open forum so your "1973" visit to NILORE makes you an expert on the program. You must have been a young teenager at that time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As anybody seen this statement from

SSG

Our facilities in Kamra and PAF over all is one of the best in this world so trust me all of these issues have been looked at and addressed. PAF will not sure its plans and strategy with everyone but I can assure you that avionics and everything else will be far different in 2015 from today.

How have you concluded this.

Wat has PAC done recently to make them world class.

To be World class Is Dassult, Elta, British Areospace, General Dymamics.

Even Chengdu or HALDRDO cannot be classed as world class as yet.

And these companies are licensing building flankers ,indengious attack helicopters , testing BVR missles and have dozens of multi billion dollars projects on the go with likes of Israel and Russia.
 
paf upgrade many engine like mirag f7 .........but it has'nt made its own engine till now can any paf resposible answere
 
AoA,

I must add that when I opened this topic today there were so many posts with Todays stamp; I thought with excitement that there must be some major development with JF program today. Just to find 4-5 pages of Bossman vs MastanK was very disappointing.
Fellas, according to your posts, mashAllah you are enjoying good life + family + Jobs n experience. Why to fight on small matters .. its good that you both Love your country and wanna see a strong Pakistan. No need to belittle each other. As my (not so) wise Turkish friend used to say. "Stop this Piss fighting"

Cheer up guyz ..!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom