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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

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Only ppl paying attention to him are deluded with propaganda :agree:

Let me tell you what propaganda is.

The failed LCA
The over exaggerated Su 30 mki
The long awaited MRCA
The no where near HGFA or PAK-FA or whatever it is

And all whatever you do to hide above is propaganda.

:)
 
Areesh u propogandist.... dont u know Arjunk 2.0 generation and Tejas MK2 are going to be in service this year lol
 
Areesh u propogandist.... dont u know Arjunk 2.0 generation and Tejas MK2 are going to be in service this year lol
Sorry PN to burst your bubble...I know my post will get deleted becoz of this secret. But more than 2000 LCA and 5000 Arjuns are in service.....All the failure are Pakistani propaganda.


KEEP THE DISCUSSION TO JF 17 ONLY
 
Blain,

Thanks very much for the post. You took your time and that is respected.

But again---the post is going in circles---you were very specific in what you wrote---don't take the sting away from your original post.

You meant what you said---that is how I understood it---what I wrote back was in response to that---we both know that.

Mastan, what exactly is it that you are referring to? Obviously I mean what I say, otherwise what kind of a man would I be?
When you point out specific issues with my post, please quote me so I know what you getting at. My initial comment was about this statement of yours
"To say JF 17 would bring the enemy to the peace table is like making myself the laughing stock in front of those from across the border."

I agreed with this statement and in my previous post I had said this twice that wars are not won on the basis of a single weapon system. My point was even more general than the one you were trying to make.
What it comes down to is---that in going after the JF 17---pakistan has basically waved the white flag---they have admitted that they cannot compete with the opponent---and there is nothing wrong with this approach---at least they are being prudent---they know their limitation---they know the limitations of the enemy---.

Not sure why going for the JF-17 is akin to waving the white flag? If anything it has shown that PAF and the GoP will do what they must. Had Pakistan "completely" waved the white flag , we would not be buying new combat aircraft and enhancing our maritime capabilities. Instead we would be spending money on other important things such as social welfare and education. So this waving of white flag is out of place. Pakistan has ongoing disputes with India and those carry on so the issue of the white flag does not even figure. In line with our economic situation, Pakistan will make selective purchases and investments and the JF-17 is the latter case. Pakistan has never competed with India and nor should she. We have made gradual capabilities enhancements when we have been able to afford them or manage them. The same goes on now.
About the Amraam's---I guess the recent news of two days ago---Mr Blake---was conveniently ignored----the non-usage of american equipment against india.

Since you are such a history buff , how about you find a few articles from 1964 on microfiche (Library of Congress has an excellent collection) about the USMAP in Pakistan. The Americans had placed the exact same restrictions on us then and do so now. The same goes for India. As soon as a war starts between Pakistan and India, the Americans will stop supplying spares to both. However none of this stops us or anyone else from using them. This is something that people should understand clearly.

You have proved nothing---but rode piggy back on my post---and with cut, paste and post you have taken the meaning out of what I have written and twisted it around one more time---good try---your post is still there---read it again.

Lets not play games here. Post what exactly is it that you have a problem with. I don't hide behind words. I meant every single thing I stated. If you have a specific problem with a point, please use quotations so I understand what you are trying to say. I have no idea about the part in my very first post which seems to have irked you to no end.

In your last para---what are you saying---we can confront india with a little here a little there
What is a little here and little there? On the ground, there is a parity of capabilities. In the air and at sea, we are at a disadvantage, however this advantage is not any worse than in the past. If anything, going nuclear has ensured one thing and it is that neither side can afford to overwhelm the other. This goes more so for India.


your quote" ---To what end? And if that is your goal, why can this not be done with PAF's current plans? Have enough multi-role aircraft with decent standoff and strike capability. Have good radars and have a good training program. You get a fairly aggressive capability to deter aggression".
What a spinner Blain---what a spinner---indeed. You again twist my words.

Mastan, you really need to stick with facts. Your posts are increasingly confusing. Where is the spin? Please explain clearly and use quotations properly.
Under paf's current planes----they can't even run away from their own shadow---and talk about confronting india---ground radars are sitting ducks---multirole aircrafts---what multirole aircrafts---that can be taken away or destroyed on the ground by the u s of a.

Ground radars? So do you think the Erieyes are for storing at the PAF museum in Karachi? What about the F-16s flying right now? What about the JF-17s ability to conduct air interdiction and surface attack? Your sole point, which started this debate was negating the importance of the JF-17. Your words
Let me re-phrase it----JF 17 is a great plane of its own kind---BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DOCTOR HAD ORDERED---.

So you want Pakistan to go for more Western aircraft so we can be embargoed even more? My point is to the contrary. I support the JF-17 induction. I think its exactly what the PAF needs to avoid getting into another difficult situation if the F-16s are sanctioned again. Your post is fairly contradictory and I feel I am not the only one who sees this.



These are different times---the u s will not hesitate to strike to destroy any threatening american weapons against india---.

All the more reason to stick with the JF-17s.


All my posts lead to one thing---pakistan didnot kill alqaeda on the slopes of hindukush---the pak millitary stayed angry with the u s of a even after agreeing to help them---the pak airforce failed to procure a platform between 2002 and 2005---because of bad assessment---that peace will prevail with india.

Americans had a better opportunity to kill AQ in the hills of Tora Bora. It would be better to question the American side why they allowed the AQ folks to get away instead of this self-flagellation. PAF failed to acquire anything because the GoP failed. It was the inability of the GoP to conduct its foreign policy in a manner which would have allowed its armed services to acquire the required equipment. To your last point, there is no option but for peace to prevail. Us buying 250 F-15s will not change this fact and neither would their purchase of a similar number of Su-30s and MMRCAs.



Oh---I almost missed it---you conveniently missed out on that part---about paf's failure to decipher india's mindset after 9/11.

And this has what to do with the JF-17 issue on hand? Lets stick to the topic on hand. Its not the PAF's job to understand "India's" mindset. This is diplomacy and beyond the scope of the discussion on hand.

Paf is in a stage of self denial---they almost again blundered us into all swedish awacs---thanks to Musharraf---we would have been tanked one more time. And look at the audacity of the ACM---after retiring he lambasts Musharraf for that---even though the ACM rented out his house to the swedish company for 4500 u s dllars---. Didnot have the decency to keep his mouth shut for awhile.


Again, this has nothing to do with the JF-17 issue and despite the fact that you have made incorrect statements again, I do not want to derail this topic of JF-17 with 10 other angles. Lets stick to the point on hand instead of bringing non-essential points to the discussion please.
Time has been the worst enemy of pakistan and pakistan air force---they always bet on the wrong horse---and the horse bit them in the behind every time.
It has been our ACHILLES heal for the 22 years for now.

Some bets are good, some are not. The JF-17 is definitely a good one any which way you look at it.
You will learn my young friend---in time you will learn what I am saying. Twenty five years ago I was sitting in the same chair as you were and there was someone else sitting in my position---how the roles have reversed---it is a fascinating process.

Patronizing tone should be avoided. Age is not an issue here (you'd be surprised to know that we are pretty close on that count). Trust me on this. This is the least bit courtesy that you should allow others who post on this forum given that you really have no idea about the background of most here. Stick to facts when responding instead of deflecting valid points with inane points about age, diapers, youth of others etc. etc.
Regards
 
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And as for BVR missile on the aircraft, for now, the initial batch is for ground attack role, thus you won't be able to see them on it.
Any idea as to what number of aircrafts from the first batch of 50, will be used for ground-support role only?

So, JF-17 is fully BVR capable, KLJ-7 can support BVR engagement
I had based my assertion on information provided by pshamim here, which stated that PAF is having certain issues with mating S10A with KLJ-7 and that KLJ-7 will be replaced by KLJ-10 in order to overcome that problem.

Do clear it up for me, please, if the situation is different from what I have perceived.
 
In begining of your sentence you talk about of having 100SU and discard JF-17 because it is in process of buying avionics.
Immediately you start usual Teja, PAK-FA etc.
As the say.... either write in past or present or future but don't mixup and that too clearly to your advantage!!!! how unfair?
You'r 100 SU are not airworthy....
JF-17 can't be flying and fighting wars taking part in excercises and testing without avionics.
Editor of AFM have never witnesed quality targeting as displayed by Thunder... next generation Avionics package negotiations are underway for blk 2... just for variation and improvement in specs...
FYI.. we are also working on improved engine... that what shall this mean we should stop flying?
Teja is a failed project and need modifications in airframe...incl. wing design.... you are relatively new to forums but LCA designers have all over Pakistani defence forums... incl. this one... to learn about wing designs and air intakes.
PAK-FA is a bird which is under development in Russia and we are anxiously waiting for their arrival but mentioning them while thunder is participating in wars, praised and touted as potent fighter by AFM is light years ahead. ;)

BTW.... not only this thread.. it is defence.pk and you are welcome but seriously... if you look at history... smaller posts have more substance and pulling Teja and PAK-FA in this thread is really bit out of taste for many. infact.. i personally am tired of these names incl. MRCA.


Nice post BATMAN. I admire your writing. :pakistan:
 
Is this for JF 17 or other planes?????

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Hi MastanKhanji,

Many thanks for making this thread such an interesting one to read. I reiterate that we sorely miss someone like you in the Indian defense section.

Excuse me for commenting as an outsider.




Hi,

Thanks for talking to me. Have you ever read a book by Louis L'amour ' The Haunted Mesa ' In it, he talk sabout a parallel world that exist next to ours---there are time and instances that the openings slide open and the wonders and wealth of that other world are exposed to the fortunate momentarily---sometimes the sliders stay open for awhile---creating an artificial lull in the urgency for the gatherer---who becomes complacent with time---basking in the illusion that the he now knows where the gates are. They can be opened anytime by him.

Pakistan had a very narrow window of oppurtunity---after 9/11---to take out the alqaeda---. Pakistani people failed in understanding the level of threat then---and they are not understanding the level of threat now.

If you pick up our history---when the armies of destroyers were right at our gates---the intelligentia of the islamic nation was busy discussing the intricacies of religion and intellect rather than facing and understanding the enemy and what needed to be.

Pakistan should have destroyed al qaeda ----executed them---destroyed them---annihilated them. They failed in that initial task---they were thinking of how to milk the americans in the long run---they made a gamble---they wanted to play the game---they never realized that the u s will give them enough rope to ultimately hang themselves up with---. They gave Saddam the rope and then hung him with it---for you disbelievers.

You never play this game with the U S. They are masters of playing the game---they have the resource---the time---and money.

If people remeber the 80's---everybody who hated america was bragging that the japanese are going to take over the usofa---japanese were buying U S real estate like there was no tomorrow---and then they went into Vegas and bought the casinos---fired all the white pit bosses and put the japanese in control---boy did they have it coming to them---the japanese never knew what hit them---the gambling casinos literraly tore them apart---not knowing what to do and acting like they did---the japanese could not hold on to it---went bankrupt in the U S---went bankrupt in japan as well. Japan could not play the game---how could pak.

The japanese left with their tails between their legs and truly and really kowtowed to the american accepting their mastery.

The peace measures that were taking place between Musharraf and Vajpayee---the paf was sure of that the time for war is over---that is what their analysis was. That is why after 4 years of 9/11---paf had nothing going in the dept of an air dominance aircraft. Paf showed no urgency it filling up the much needed gap.

After 9/11 the paks should have taken on the terrorists like there was no tomorrow---proven to the world that they are a responsible nation---. But pakistan and pakistanis got busy on who did what and why should we do what to the one who was trained by someone 15 years ago.

If some of youtrained somebody to stitch their pants 15 years ago---and now--he has become a tailor---who are we going to blame. Let the criminal take the blame as well.


As the time wore on---they got more into the rhetoric. Rather than taking advantage of an open oppurtunity---open coffers---open check books---they spent more time on the blame game than on doing the job they were supposed to do---ie---take out the al qaeda.

Non-chalant and healfhearted efforts over here---some over there---little action and then peace deals---it just became a joke. Pakistani millitary thought that the world was a real fool or maybe they just didnot know how to do what.

They should have dug into the history books of islamic glory days and studied what those muslims general--governors---caliphs did in time of insurgency. The would have found out that the insurgency was instantly and viciously crushed righ to the last man---last child---last women---and here we are---they slaughtered and skinned our soldiers alive---literally skinned our soldiers---and these coward generals were making peace deals with those insurgents.

When Kyani started the anti-insurgency move, the water had already passed under the bridge----the world had grown tired of pakistan and its games---the compassion was long gone.

Now comes a time that the u s has to literraly threaten pakistan with a major strike and pakistan is clueless as to what is happening.

A member is suggesting to look into the microfische of the 60's and what the americans said at that time. Very interesting and ionformative wouldn't it be now.

People want look the meaning of word confused---directionless---without rudder---without an aim or a goal for succes---in a dictionary---they don't need to go there---they can look at my motherland and at me. The will get the gist of it all.

Pakistani generlas and politicians---in govt or out of govt---completely got befuddled by the india factor. They never had the intellect of counting what would india do once the u s came back to pakistan. Even after 2002 confrontation---the paks were caught sleeping. So much empowered they were feeling by possessing the nukes that they didnot feel the momentum slipping by---nary a chance went by when the paks didnot threaten to use the nukes---. They believed that talking big would make them strong---make them look stronger---make them invincible----on the contrary---every step in that direction made us weaker and vulnerable---but we didnot know that.

During all this time---the u s has taken into account every single place that pak has stored their nuke warheads and accompanying missiles---. The u s seriuosly started seeking the pak nukes after 2005---. In about three years time they had all of them accounted for---.

For that reason---you don't hear anything from the americans about the nukes---and that is a moment of concern.

Now coming down to india---the u s will definitely strike down pak assets to stop a war from escalting between pak and india. A war between pak and india would have severe repurcussions for the world---so bad that we will not know the world as it exists today. or that reason and to prevent its integrity---the u s will strike and strike hard---take out all strike capabilities of pak weapons---even if a missile or two with nukes escaped the american strikes into india---the u s will force india not to retaliate.

India being the prudent one---would follow the directive---why complain when the amricans will finish the job for you. It would be a win win situation for india.

So---what must pakistan do---first to survive this anamoly---pakistan must do the unthinkable---the unpredictable---take india headon in its own game---make an all out peace overture---basing it on the facts---we fought---we spilt blood---we hated each other---and we found out that we can't go too far with that. So do the impossible.

There is nothing wrong with it---there is nothing wrong with peace---there is nothing wrong with giving an average pakistani a better taste of life and happiness.

In order for pakistan to succeed---they must do the opposite of what they have been dong till today---.
 
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Regarding you first point sir ,No one can ever dictate terms to US and Pakistan was not an exception I agree with your point to some extent that we didnot played our cards right because of our poor strategy and foreign policy, but you have to except the fact that we didnot have the luxury like india to do so .This was because of two facts

US has a lot of influence in our politics secondly due to our poor economy (except from 2004 to 2008 which was a good patch for us)

From day one we had US aid and US was the biggest supplier of arms to Pakistan.


Hi,

Mani my man---if you know that we are dependant on the american equipment and I know that as well---and we knew that our major arch enemy was way ahead of us---then what stopped us from planting our lips hard and sucking deep right to the eternal end and never letting go.

That is what I have been saying in a as many ways I possibly can---we knew where our salvation lay---but we were never 110% committed to the task---and that is the price we are paying today.
 
Keep the discussion to JF-17, for corruption, military take overs and other stuff, there are threads, and if you don't find one, open one and discuss.

Keep this thread for just JF-17.

Thanks

When ATTENTION doesn't work, I think we need action to be taken now...
 
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