JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[jagjitnatt]

if you keep thinking that JF-17s and SU-27s are not (ture) fly by ware, fine. it's your privilege to believe what you think is right.

Su-27 didn't have a fly-by-wire system. A fly-by-system acts as an interface between the pilot and the aircraft. There is no way one can control the aircraft if its fly-by-wire system gets kaput.

Only the later SM upgrade of the Su27 had digital fly-by-wire system.

FYI, fly-by-wire is the same system as drive-by-wire in cars.

 

[Peregrine]

J-10 and jf-17 II will be mostly similar
We will get 50% profit on the export of each jf-17..
only 250Mn USD are spented on jf-17 and we hav a good multirole fighter..

Hi
Dude you keep on repeating JF-17 block II, but where is it, Block II was supposed to be the one with french avionics, i think its much better if PAF spend something on J-10 instead of Jf-17

 

[SomeGuy]

Range of R77 is 90 kms.

Which source?

As I said the above data for SD-10 has been highly inflated to unimaginable figures. The R-77 is the most agile missile (medium range) in the world right now due to its lattice control surface.

The lattice fins are advantageous only at high supersonic speed because less energy is lost whilst manoeuvering.
At speeds of mach 1 and lower they lose more energy while manoeuvering - The consequnce of this is that it decreases the effective range.

The rcs of MKI is almost 15 square meter with all weapons loaded, similarly the rcs of JF-17 would also shoot up with the weapons.
MKI would detect a 3 square meter rcs aircraft at a distance of 166 km.
There is no way you can calculate the range at which KLJ-7 would detect MKI, since not much info is available, but 100 kms seem to be the number.

Okay, suppose that MKI can detect JF-17 from 166km.
Other than situational awareness, what other advantages will that give to MKI?

MKI will still have to get to about 40-50km to get a high probability BVR kill (if max range of R-77 in 80-90km).
That will still take it within max range of SD-10 (About 70km).

What if JF-17 pilots decided not to wait until 30-40km to try for high probability kill? What if they fired earlier e.g. at 40-50km (the same as MKI pilots)?
How much more would it affect the kill probability - would it be a small or huge difference?

 

[SQ8]

You fannies thrive on the hypothetical and not one is prepared to give an inch of ground on stuff that has not yet been tested and verified.
Currently there is NO SD-10 on JF... The MICA deal has stalled. No actual performance of SD-10 is known, since it has never been used in anger or has any any test info been released. And the Chinese are very unlikely to do so.
The R-77 is a tested missile system but not in combat, the russkies have a penchant for exaggerating before any actual confirmation of the capability. On paper the R-77/MKI has a definite advantage of both range and supersonic manevrability, however if the missile loses energy, which is tantamount to the target turning tail and running its Pk drops like a rock. Then again, considering the beast the MKI is its probably carrying 8 of these so it will just keep firing till it hits something.
The only option for a craft the class of the JF is to rely on jammers to prevent a lock on from occurring till it can fire within an acceptable PK zone itself.
after that its a game of chicken seeing who can hold the lock long enough whilst risking themselves to ensure the missile goes active.
Still, the MKI has, will hold the upper hand and dictate the terms of the engagement in most cases.(sick of all the MKI vs JF comparisons, frikkin Indians cant stop blabbing about it and our overeager juniors cant hesitate to indulge in idiocy)
Now
Back to the Jf
Isnt it about time the Kamra people tried outsourcing radar development to local universities and other organizations. Maybe that way a local system may be developed by 2015 or so.
Somehow though the officers I know in the PAF are more excited about the Block 52's then the Thunder, maybe it isnt all its cracked up to be.

 

[Indian-Devil]

Which source?



The lattice fins are advantageous only at high supersonic speed because less energy is lost whilst manoeuvering.
At speeds of mach 1 and lower they lose more energy while manoeuvering - The consequnce of this is that it decreases the effective range.



Okay, suppose that MKI can detect JF-17 from 166km.
Other than situational awareness, what other advantages will that give to MKI?

MKI will still have to get to about 40-50km to get a high probability BVR kill (if max range of R-77 in 80-90km).
That will still take it within max range of SD-10 (About 70km).

What if JF-17 pilots decided not to wait until 30-40km to try for high probability kill? What if they fired earlier e.g. at 40-50km (the same as MKI pilots)?
How much more would it affect the kill probability - would it be a small or huge difference?

source Vympel R-77 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Regarding firing of the missile in 50-60 km range R-77 has edge here as well. Along with that Su-30Mki is having of the best jammers on board to misguide the enemy missile and fighter's radar guidance.

 

[Dazzler]

Source for MKI best jammers ? Or is it that its Israeli made ?

 

[Dazzler]

I don't know whether to say it here or not but i saw Thunder at around 11.00 pm with a mirage here in Karachi. Interesting....

 

[gambit]

As I said the above data for SD-10 has been highly inflated to unimaginable figures. The R-77 is the most agile missile (medium range) in the world right now due to its lattice control surface.

The lattice fins are advantageous only at high supersonic speed because less energy is lost whilst manoeuvering.
At speeds of mach 1 and lower they lose more energy while manoeuvering - The consequnce of this is that it decreases the effective range.

The missile will pass through the transonic region quickly enough that the lattice structure's drag factor will not matter much. But here is a more interesting fact...

Giza - Radar Picture of Giza

The pyramids at Giza appear as three bright triangles aligned with the image top just at the boundary of the urbanized area. They are also shown enlarged in the inset box in the top left of the image.

There are many structures around the world that pilots uses for radar navigation, references and even calibration. The Giza Pyramids grouping is one and just about the best electronic radar beacon is the Eiffel Tower -- a metallic lattice structure.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Which source?

There are several versions of the Vympel missile. The one in service in India is the RVV-AE according to
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena

The range of RVV-AE R77 is 100 kms head on.
The Russian Philosophy of BVR Air Combat

R-77 RVV-AE (AA-12 "Adder") Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile

The lattice fins are advantageous only at high supersonic speed because less energy is lost whilst manoeuvering.
At speeds of mach 1 and lower they lose more energy while manoeuvering - The consequnce of this is that it decreases the effective range.

That is a copy paste answer. It is true that the missile loses more kinetic energy while maneuvering but what you forgot to read was that it adds to the maneuverability of the missile. Lattice fins are designed to maximize control surfaces and more control surfaces mean more drag, which results to more loss in energy but it enhances the control of the missile.

Okay, suppose that MKI can detect JF-17 from 166km.
Other than situational awareness, what other advantages will that give to MKI?


MKI will still have to get to about 40-50km to get a high probability BVR kill (if max range of R-77 in 80-90km).
That will still take it within max range of SD-10 (About 70km).

What if JF-17 pilots decided not to wait until 30-40km to try for high probability kill? What if they fired earlier e.g. at 40-50km (the same as MKI pilots)?

The MKI pilot would never wait so long since the range of its missile is 100 km. It will have ample time to detect the JF-17 first, jam its radar, and launch missile at a distance of 60 km or more and since the MKI would be carrying more missiles it can afford to spend them.

Also the MKI has Israeli Elta EL/M-8222 jammer support. These are the same jammers used on Israeli F-15s, or on Indian bisons. Also it has an indigenous Electronic Countermeasure system.

How much more would it affect the kill probability - would it be a small or huge difference?

The kill probability for MKI is above 0.8 if you ask me.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Source for MKI best jammers ? Or is it that its Israeli made ?

This is why SU30MKI is a God's Gift to Aviation. It has Israeli Radar/Jammers, French Avionics, Russian Airframe and most importantly Piloted by Martian Indian Pilots capable of sustaining 30G's. Any question raised about the MKI's capabilities will be met by stiff resistance from our Indian friends as we have seen, they firmly believe blindly that nothing can defeat this aircraft and i can say that nothing makes me happier hearing that . God Forbid if we ever go to a war, all we would need to do is shoot down 10 or 15 of their MKI's and their morale goes South

 

[jagjitnatt]

This is why SU30MKI is a God's Gift to Aviation. It has Israeli Radar/Jammers, French Avionics, Russian Airframe and most importantly Piloted by Martian Indian Pilots capable of sustaining 30G's. Any question raised about the MKI's capabilities will be met by stiff resistance from our Indian friends as we have seen, they firmly believe blindly that nothing can defeat this aircraft and i can say that nothing makes me happier hearing that . God Forbid if we ever go to a war, all we would need to do is shoot down 10 or 15 of their MKI's and their morale goes South

Be honest yaar, tell me do you expect to kill MKI which has jammers, the best passive radar, one of the best medium range A2A missile, most maneuverable airframe using a plane which features none of the above?

Seriously, there is no comparison. F16 block 52+ is a better comparison. At least it has one of the best A2A missiles, along with a decent radar. That can give MKi some tough time but JF-17 would be a one man show for MKI.

MKI should be compared with Typhoon, Rafale, F18, F15, Gripen, Su35, F35. Once it gets its MLU in 5-7 years from now, it would have Irbis-E radar which is just second to APG-77 of F22.

 

[Creder]

guys cool it and for the upteenth time FC-1's WONT and i reapeat wont be going up against the MKI's

 

[TechLahore]

I guess folks never tire of senseless 1:1 comparisons. Real scenarios will be far more complex with numerous assets coming into play, including SAMs, ground positions, AWACS, whether the battle is on own or enemy territory, numbers in the air, whether someone gets intercepted at the tail end or very beginning of his mission, weapons actively carried at the time of engagement and so on and so forth...

Suffice to say the JF-17 will significantly upgrade Pakistan's air defence and CAS capabilities, and with the FC-20 soon to follow, along with new F-16 Block 52s being inducted, the promise of a new SAM system and two AWACS platforms, augmented with refuellers and offensive options such as Babar, Ra'ad and the numerous ballistic missile options, we are just swimmingly. There is no near-term threat that could neutralize us without paying an equally heavy price - or perhaps even a greater one.

 

[SomeGuy]

The range of RVV-AE R77 is 100 kms head on.
The Russian Philosophy of BVR Air Combat

R-77 RVV-AE (AA-12 "Adder") Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile

LOL - That last link says that the head on range is 150km. That's the most over-exaggerated figure I've seen yet.

That is a copy paste answer. It is true that the missile loses more kinetic energy while maneuvering but what you forgot to read was that it adds to the maneuverability of the missile. Lattice fins are designed to maximize control surfaces and more control surfaces mean more drag, which results to more loss in energy but it enhances the control of the missile.



The MKI pilot would never wait so long since the range of its missile is 100 km. It will have ample time to detect the JF-17 first, jam its radar, and launch missile at a distance of 60 km or more and since the MKI would be carrying more missiles it can afford to spend them.

Again, that 100km claim is debatable.
I've seen maximum ranges of 80km (warefare.ru, sinodefence), 90km (wikipedia, link) or even 100km claimed.

Even if the MKI pilot fired at 60km away, they would still be within the maximum range of SD-10.
Plus the earlier the R-77 is launched, the more likely it would use up its fuel and slow down - when this happens the lattice fins are more likely to bleed off the missiles kinetic energy when it tries to manoeuvre in for the kill.

 

[kursed]

Launch distance isn't the only variable in BVR (specially with regards to NEZ) warfare. Aircraft speed and altitude at the time of launch feature heavily into the equation as well.