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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

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7 hard points were not enough for an AC like jf17

Why not?

the PAF CAS has already said the JF-17 hard points would be raised to 9 from current 7, plus many other new technologies would be added also

So that would be a more dedicated to CAS role.

This whole business about hardpoints is nonsensical. The airacraft is essentially designed for point defense, though it variants are sure to be developed. Lets concentrate on Engines and avionics, not how many hard points.
 
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Why not?



So that would be a more dedicated to CAS role.

This whole business about hardpoints is nonsensical. The airacraft is essentially designed for point defense, though it variants are sure to be developed. Lets concentrate on Engines and avionics, not how many hard points.

Muse, the more hard points the better it is for the aircraft either in CAS or A2A engagements. In a CAS role it will definitely help as more pay load can be delivered, but in A2A mode its also essential, because BVR is the future, but for the time being the Kill rate of a BVR missile is very low, so more hard points will mean more A2A missiles capability, resulting is more launches at one given or multiple targets. Ideally, if 2 BVR missiles are launched at one aircraft, JF-17 having 9 hard points making it carry 4 BVR missiles, then it can engage 2 targets with 4 missiles, result would be increase in chances to hit the target more.

Plus other weapons combination can also be planned as per mission or doctrine requirements.
 
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What problem? If the JF needed more hardpoints they would have added more hardpoints already. Seven hardpoints are enough, if they need more they will add more or use multiple launch rails like they are using for bombs. Even the Saab Gripen only had 7 hardpoints originally:

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no dear, it is not so simple!
it is not easy to increase the hardpoints without compensating on a number of other features!
the JF17 do need atleast two more hardpoints and prehaps one more under the cockpit for a targetting pod or such things!
look as we all know that the first squadron will be equipped for a groung attack role so in this case what good the plane be carrying two WVRAAM on wing tips and just two bombs and two fuel tanks as we will have to use the remaining one point for targetting pod, FLIR or anything like this! the problem is sorted out be using multiple point pylons and now it can carry two extra bombs!!!
the same is the case with A2A role planes! it wont be wise to go into the battle with two WVRAAM and two BVRAAM as the rest hardpoints will be accomodated by fuel tanks! if we want to carry more missiles we will have to compromise on lotier time. a multiple point pylon able to cary two BVRAAM will help us out of this problem and wont be difficult as minimal design change will be required, infact there may not be a single change!

yes you are right with gripen but i hope you know that it carries four pylons and tis makes the number of hardpoints 13!

regards!
 
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SO SIR I CAN CONCLUDE NOW THAT BY 2015 WE WILL BE HAVING ALL 150 PLANES IN OUR FLEET
THAT'S SOUNDS GOOD
LONGLIVE PAF

ys inshallah!
if every thing keeps on going according to plan as it had been so far then we will Inshallah be having about 150 or even more JF17 in PAF colors by 2015!

regards!
 
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Why not?



So that would be a more dedicated to CAS role.

This whole business about hardpoints is nonsensical. The airacraft is essentially designed for point defense, though it variants are sure to be developed. Lets concentrate on Engines and avionics, not how many hard points.


what about an Su30 firing three or even more BVRAAM on a JF with the JF only having the liberty of two under its wings!
its all about probability sir!
similarly the first squadron for the groung attack role wil be needing more hardpoint! we suurely dont want a plane to burn fuel and just deleiver two bombs! this problem is almost sorted out by the use of pylons and now it carries four bombs using two hardpoints!

i hope you understand what i wanna say!

regards!
 
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Adeos, thats how fighter aircrafts evolve, the PAF CAS has already said the JF-17 hard points would be raised to 9 from current 7, plus many other new technologies would be added also....
Last I read, he stated somewhere that "work was progressing well to increase number of hardpoints from 7 to 9". Has anybody saved the link to that news report?

Something interesting about F-16's hardpoints is that when they added the "chin" hardpoints to the air intake for carrying targeting pods, they had to increase the size of the horizontal tail "stabilators" to offset the extra weight of the hardpoints. I think the JF-17 designers will have to do something similar.

JF-17... future variants would be likely more bigger, better & deadlier.
Sure they will make it better and deadlier, but that does not mean they will make it bigger. You can't just increase the size of a fighter so easily, you have to re-design it. You can stretch it and make a two-seater but that won't make it much bigger. Look at Gripen and F-16. Gripen NG wasn't made bigger, Saab just modified the internal structure and moved the landing gear housings to allow larger fuel tanks. F-16 was never made bigger except in the Mitsubishi F-2, but even though that looks a lot like F-16, it is a whole new aeroplane. It is also a huge amount more expensive than F-16.

Muse, the more hard points the better it is for the aircraft either in CAS or A2A engagements. In a CAS role it will definitely help as more pay load can be delivered, but in A2A mode its also essential, because BVR is the future, but for the time being the Kill rate of a BVR missile is very low, so more hard points will mean more A2A missiles capability, resulting is more launches at one given or multiple targets. Ideally, if 2 BVR missiles are launched at one aircraft, JF-17 having 9 hard points making it carry 4 BVR missiles, then it can engage 2 targets with 4 missiles, result would be increase in chances to hit the target more.
Plus other weapons combination can also be planned as per mission or doctrine requirements.
Of course more hardpoints are better, but for more hardpoints you need a larger, more expensive fighter. JF-17 is designed to be small and low-cost, why change this? Twin engines are more powerful than single engine, but that doesn't mean the JF needs to be modified for two engines, does it?
The point is that if the JF really needed more than 7 hardpoints, it would have been designed from the start with more than 7 hardpoints. Right now it seems to me that they are just adding two more under the air intakes so that it can carry jammer/targeting pods.
You make a good point with the BVR AAMs. But if the kill probability is so low, the fighters will be in heat-seeking SR AAM range in no time. When that happens, what use are those extra 2 heavy BVR AAMs? They are just 360 kg of dead weight that the pilot would probably rather jettison.
If the mission requires more weapons, then more fighters will be sent to do the job anyway.

I agree that the JF could use more hardpoints, but I disagree that it is a huge problem which must be fixed immediately. Bear in mind, the fighter was designed for a BVR combat role - if it needed extra hardpoints for carrying such missiles, they would have added them.
The extra two hardpoints being added will probably just be for EW/targeting/FLIR pods and the like, that's all the aircraft really needs.
 
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no dear, it is not so simple!
it is not easy to increase the hardpoints without compensating on a number of other features!
the JF17 do need atleast two more hardpoints and prehaps one more under the cockpit for a targetting pod or such things!
look as we all know that the first squadron will be equipped for a groung attack role so in this case what good the plane be carrying two WVRAAM on wing tips and just two bombs and two fuel tanks as we will have to use the remaining one point for targetting pod, FLIR or anything like this! the problem is sorted out be using multiple point pylons and now it can carry two extra bombs!!!
the same is the case with A2A role planes! it wont be wise to go into the battle with two WVRAAM and two BVRAAM as the rest hardpoints will be accomodated by fuel tanks! if we want to carry more missiles we will have to compromise on lotier time. a multiple point pylon able to cary two BVRAAM will help us out of this problem and wont be difficult as minimal design change will be required, infact there may not be a single change!

yes you are right with gripen but i hope you know that it carries four pylons and tis makes the number of hardpoints 13!

regards!



excellent points arsalan,thats what exactly i was trying to say.:cheers:
 
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Last I read, he stated somewhere that "work was progressing well to increase number of hardpoints from 7 to 9". Has anybody saved the link to that news report?

I think you are talking about this video



The point is that if the JF really needed more than 7 hardpoints, it would have been designed from the start with more than 7 hardpoints. Right now it seems to me that they are just adding two more under the air intakes so that it can carry jammer/targeting pods.

That is partially true but not completely. If more than 7 hardpoints was put at the very beginning, then the whole program could have been delayed. Keep in mind that even the BVR requirement was made in the development process not before the beginning of the design.

The idea is that we incorporate extra hardpoints on the existing airframe (with minimum changes if required) and not to build a bigger plane such as J-10, which as you said, could have been the case from the beginning.


You make a good point with the BVR AAMs. But if the kill probability is so low, the fighters will be in heat-seeking SR AAM range in no time. When that happens, what use are those extra 2 heavy BVR AAMs? They are just 360 kg of dead weight that the pilot would probably rather jettison.

I think BVR are no doubt good but a bit overrated. So far their usage in real wars have been pretty limited and from what is available on the net, the kill probability is indeed quite low.

For those who might have paid attention to interviews of PAF senior officials, they have always mentioned " a BVR weapon and a 5th generation WVR weapon". That shows the importance being stressed on the WVR weapons as I think they are still the most important weapon as of today--that is not to downplay the role of BVR which keeps an enemy at bay since you tell him your punch can reach far and any aircraft within that region is potentially under threat.

my $0.02
 
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hi hj786
agree with almost all of your points except:
Originally Posted by hj786
The point is that if the JF really needed more than 7 hardpoints, it would have been designed from the start with more than 7 hardpoints. Right now it seems to me that they are just adding two more under the air intakes so that it can carry jammer/targeting pods.
look this is not the case wiht fighter jets. you can not plane a paper copy and then produce it to get exactly what you wanted. F16 have evolved in the next generation fighter through years of modification. originaly it was designed for superiority in dog fighs but now have made itself into a true BVR platform. so this makes it clear hat it is not like"if they wanted it they would have done it from the start". look at gripen for example. originally designed with seven hardpoints, what made the SAAB to use pylons to eventually end up with the gripen carrying 13 hardpoints, we are looking for a new radar, as far as your comment, if we needed it we must have incorporated it from the start! same goes for FLIR! i hope you understrand the point, its all about evolution and upgradation!
we are looking for a better radar now
 
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well some days ago I asked about the possible engine for block II but got no replies. plz enlighten us.
thanks.
 
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I think pakistan too much depend upon j-17. I see report pakistan making serial production of j-17 in pakistan. That's nice :yahoo:I want to know how many in one year.
 
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well some days ago I asked about the possible engine for block II but got no replies. plz enlighten us.
thanks.



It can be either a western one, french engines are talked about a lot, but for the time being the engine having most chances is the Chinese WS-13, RD-93 copy, having more engine thrust.
 
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It can be either a western one, french engines are talked about a lot, but for the time being the engine having most chances is the Chinese WS-13, RD-93 copy, having more engine thrust.

thanks sir,but WS-13 is still in development stage,and if gets into production it would a true first chinese engine, however french enigine most probably M88-Eco with thurst more then 90 KN would be desirable because of its mature background,but at the same time it would more expensive than WS-13, so what other options are there for an engine that is reliable, more powerful and cost effective??
 
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well WS-13 is in the testing stage, plus the next batch of JF-17 are at least 2 to 3 years away. Yes french engines are good, but PAF needs a sanction proof thing, and french engines would be not sanction proof.

In other options, US is there but we can't buy from them, reason u know :) , russian engines are already there. So don't think any other viable option is left.
 
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