JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[hj786]

They are old pics

Because the FC#6 is better than FC#4

Thanks for pics and info Wangrong. Can you give us more info on the differences between 04 and 06?

 

[mean_bird]

Thanks for pics and info Wangrong. Can you give us more info on the differences between 04 and 06?

From what I hear in the chinese forums, the only difference is that PT-06 uses all chinese instruments- radar, antennae, ejection seat, etc.

It didn't even make much news and most even doubted it existed.

 

[sancho]

I think you answered the questions correct. No matter India will decide (or delay) the result will be that all other parties will love to sell to Pakistan. As long as JF17 does not compete Mig29 versions it will have the option to absorb Russian technology. If that means selling to Pakistan (indirectly from China) the Russians do not care. They no longer need India to finance their military programs nor did they like the attitude of IAF when going for western parts (certainly this re-elected government will push to do)...

I think you are wrong, if India would decide for Mig 35, Russia wouldn't give China, or Pakistan these techs (they won't give it to Pakistan alone anyway, it will always come through China, if Russia want, or not), so it is related on Indias decision. Also the only thing that all these countires LOVES is money, that's why they all are so friendly to us at the moment and not because they love us, or you. They look only for their advantages regardless if they sell to us, or to you.

You are highly mistaken if you really belive that Russia don't need Indian finance! Pak Fa development started by Russia but they couldn't finish because lack of money, Nerpa building started but was never finished because lack of money, Brahmos developed jointly but only India is going on with development and induction into forces, cause Russia has a lack of money, MTA wouldn't be possible without Indian funding and the list could go on and on.
We need their high tech for low costs, they need us as a reliable partner with money and access to western techs.

Btw the article you posted proves this only! If they wouldn't need India and wasn't afraid to lose their main arms buyer, they wouldn't reduce the price for Gorshkov and promise to deliver things on time now.
So they are not looking for other partners, they are trying everything to keep us as a partner!

However, I think those Mig 35 techs will be useful for JF or J 10, but it looks to me PAF and IAF would face eachother with nearly the same techs and weapons in the near future. Consider JF/J10 with Russian radar and engine alongside with US F16 and their weapons. On the other side Mig 29 and Mki with nearly the same radar, engine and weapons, alongside with US F18SH and the same US weapons that you will have.
Only the plattform, their quantity and maybe the quality of techs could be different.

 

[mean_bird]

I think you are wrong, if India would decide for Mig 35, Russia wouldn't give China, or Pakistan these techs (they won't give it to Pakistan alone anyway, it will always come through China, if Russia want, or not), so it is related on Indias decision. Also the only thing that all these countires LOVES is money, that's why they all are so friendly to us at the moment and not because they love us, or you. They look only for their advantages regardless if they sell to us, or to you.

Russia isn't even willing to deny China the PAK-FA technology, which India is co-financing and we are talking about Mig-35 which India will only be a buyer.

India got the Su-30, China got not only the Su-30 but also the whole Su-27 technology (from which they built the J-11). China also got samples of Russian radar and missiles...the same that india bought. Where was the Indian leverage then?

India might have a leverage against pakistan but not so against China. Russia continues to sell whatever it likes to China irrespective of what India thinks. If CHina wants the Mig-35, it will get it.

For Pakistan, its the end product that matters whether it comes directly from Russia or via China. I don't even think Pakistan is eagerly waiting to have direct engine talks with Russia but via China. But anything that comes to Pakistan have all members on board i.e Russia was willing to sell the RD-93 engine to pakistan even if it means having to go through China, and has even offered an improved version of it.

Do you think JF-17 started development without Russia agreeing that the engine would be ultimately sold to Pakistan? Its just a drama that was created by Indian media that the engines won't be shipped to Pakistan. Apart from them, everyone knew that they would and everyone was laughing and going on with the development.

Btw some of the technology Russia have, which was developed during the soviet era, is also available via 3rd party ( or 4th if you wish). Some of the R&D was carried out in Ukraine which might be willing to sell to users Russia might not sell directly.

 

[Munir]

Did you really think China designed a whole new SD10, J10 IRIST without Russian help? Ooops. They saw, they copied and they moved on. They saw AL31 and they made one in their own backyard... And India? India is still getting its AL31 shipped back to Russia... Who achieved the most?

 

[Munir]

The other F16... Italian...





Like to see JF17 dressed like this...

 

[sancho]

India got the Su-30, China got not only the Su-30 but also the whole Su-27 technology (from which they built the J-11). China also got samples of Russian radar and missiles...the same that india bought. Where was the Indian leverage then?

That's not quiet true, both countries got Su 30 right, but India got a way more advanced version! That is more than 10 years back now and China still don't got that PESA radar or AL 31 engine with TVC for that fighters right?
And now when it seems that those will be available for J10, India is already getting the next version (AL 41) for FGFA and most likely for upg MKIs. So there is a difference in what India can get from Russia and what China can get.
At the end it's like I said, everybody is trying to get his own advantage and if we don't buy those techs, why shouldn't Russia offer them to China.

Did you really think China designed a whole new SD10, J10 IRIST without Russian help? Ooops. They saw, they copied and they moved on. They saw AL31 and they made one in their own backyard... And India? India is still getting its AL31 shipped back to Russia... Who achieved the most?

And that describes why Russia trust us more than China! Btw Astra is also based on a Russian missile, MKI has OLS since years and:

Welcome to Engine Division, Koraput of HAL

 

[PAFAce]

That's not quiet true, both countries got Su 30 right, but India got a way more advanced version! That is more than 10 years back now and China still don't got that PESA radar or AL 31 engine with TVC for that fighters right?

Correct. However, this is not because the Russians favour the Indians over the Chinese, but because the Chinese ask for less. The Chinese Aerospace industry is ahead of the Indian Aerospace industry by a good amount (in all objectivity) and so they require less assistance from the Russians. The Indians are much less self-sufficient in the field of Aerospace (in fact, in advance aerospace, they are not self-sufficient at all). You have to sacrifice one thing for another, it is all about trade-offs. The Chinese pay less because they can do more, India pays more because they can do less, and so it balances out.

Ofcourse, when comparing India and Pakistan, it is India that enjoys similar advantages over Pakistan.

And now when it seems that those will be available for J10, India is already getting the next version (AL 41) for FGFA and most likely for upg MKIs. So there is a difference in what India can get from Russia and what China can get.

No. Again, the difference is not "what India can get from Russia and what China can get", but rather "what India wants from Russia and what China wants".

At the end it's like I said, everybody is trying to get his own advantage and if we don't buy those techs, why shouldn't Russia offer them to China.

Correct. All three parties; Russia, China and India, are looking out for themselves. It's all business, nothing personal.

Russia trust us more than China!

And there you go neutralizing the intelligent statement you made above. No, they don't trust India more. As far as the Russians are concerned, the country that offers bigger business is the country that it favours at any given point in time.

 

[mean_bird]

That's not quiet true, both countries got Su 30 right, but India got a way more advanced version! That is more than 10 years back now and China still don't got that PESA radar or AL 31 engine with TVC for that fighters right?

As PAFAce has said, it is what China wants. China terminated the Su-27 and went ahead to build the J-11. It doesn't need MKI's when it can build its own.

China has no one to fear at the moment (no threat or war is imminent). Why would China go and buy a TVC engine or a PESA radar for a stop gap if she feels its own production is very near? The J-11 are now getting the WS-10 engines.

Consider the case of the Su-33. Its been on offer by Russia if China orders a sizeable number of them, but so far China has not shown interest in buying except just for prototypes (which neither justifies the production line being opened and looks more like just for copying). Why? because China's own Carrier-borned fighter (J-13/J-15) is being seen as in an advanced stage of development. Only if there are some problems or delays will China go for the Su-33.

Believe me if India's aerospace industry was even 1/4th of China's, it won't be going for MMRCA or Su-30 upgrades or Mirage upgrades, etc. If kaveri was even a half-decent and functioning engine, they won't be looking for new engines for the LCA.

 

[SEAL]

President Zardari to visit Russia and Brussels from 14-June-09..
lets see Russian response

 

[sancho]

Correct. However, this is not because the Russians favour the Indians over the Chinese, but because the Chinese ask for less. The Chinese Aerospace industry is ahead of the Indian Aerospace industry by a good amount (in all objectivity) and so they require less assistance from the Russians. The Indians are much less self-sufficient in the field of Aerospace (in fact, in advance aerospace, they are not self-sufficient at all). You have to sacrifice one thing for another, it is all about trade-offs. The Chinese pay less because they can do more, India pays more because they can do less, and so it balances out.

I agree with you that China is more able to develop and produce techs on their own, but imo India is catching that up very fast and the reason for that is that India has much more access to Russian and Western techs.
For example both countries still wasn't able to develop a fighter engine that was good enough to be used now on J10, or LCA, that's why China have to use AL 31 and India GE 404.
To produce Russian RD 33 and AL 31 in India definitely helped to get experience but of course that wasn't enough to build an engine capable enough and on time. Now with the cooperation with Snecma they will get far more experience with high western techs which clearly will improve capabilities too.
Same goes for radar I think, LCA Mk2 will use foreing AESA radar and in this and the J10 thread you can always read about the fighters getting Russian, or western AESA radar right? But again China will have to develope most of this tech alone (of course with some help of Russia), India on the otherside will get ToT of the most capable AESA radars through MMRCA and Pak Fa coop.
To come back to the relationship to Russia., let's pretend you are right and China was and is able to get the same from Russia like India. Why would they deny to add advanced techs from Su 35 to their MKK like India added to MKI?
They wasn't able to develop PESA radar, OLS-30, or TVC in that time, so why should they want to get a less advanced fighter than us, if they had the same choice?

Consider the case of the Su-33. Its been on offer by Russia if China orders a sizeable number of them, but so far China has not shown interest in buying except just for prototypes (which neither justifies the production line being opened and looks more like just for copying). Why? because China's own Carrier-borned fighter (J-13/J-15) is being seen as in an advanced stage of development. Only if there are some problems or delays will China go for the Su-33.


Believe me if India's aerospace industry was even 1/4th of China's, it won't be going for MMRCA or Su-30 upgrades or Mirage upgrades, etc. If kaveri was even a half-decent and functioning engine, they won't be looking for new engines for the LCA.

Actually China had interest on Su 33, but only on a few numbers as you said and Russia cancelled the deal because they was afraid tha China only wants some samples to copy them again and produce those in mass production!

Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses - paper | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire

Now I heared they want to navalise J10, but long range strikes they will need a bigger aircraft too, let's wait and see.

I think I ansered many things of your post above too and as I said I don't see so much difference in the gap of China to Inda in this field. Kaveri engine is working and like latest reports say it offers as much thrust as the Russian RD93 in JF 17, but the requirement of IAF was 90Kn for LCA, so it needs more improvement and that's why we have to get another engine first. That's a setback of course, but as I said above China is facing the same problems and the first Rafales used also US GE404 because M88 wasn't ready. So for for the first attempt it might be not that bad right?

 

[Munir]

I think there is a huge gap between wat China achieved and what India sofar did. India might dream about super powers or super tech but it has not shown anthing sofar. Building downgraded copies with help of man and calling it superduper after three decades is something that is not comparable with J10-B or J11. And JF17 might be originall in the same league but it alread have passed LCA with huge distance. Telling about what LCA theoretical should have been doesn't make it that good in realit. Why else would it be remembered as technology developement and not real fighter jet. Buying a few shows that it is a failed program.

 

[Munir]

This sums prett much the whole picture... In military it is the same...

>>>In the last few days, India has dispatched roughly 60,000 troops to its border with China, the scene of enduring territorial disputes between the two countries.
J.J. Singh, the Indian governor of the controversial area, said the move was intended to “meet future security challenges” from China. Meanwhile, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh claimed, despite cooperative India-China relations, his government would make no concessions to China on territorial disputes.
The tough posture Singh’s new government has taken may win some applause among India’s domestic nationalists. But it is dangerous if it is based on a false anticipation that China will cave in.
India has long held contradictory views on China. Another big Asian country, India is frustrated that China’s rise has captured much of the world’s attention. Proud of its “advanced political system,” India feels superior to China. However, it faces a disappointing domestic situation which is unstable compared with China’s.
India likes to brag about its sustainable development, but worries that it is being left behind by China. China is seen in India as both a potential threat and a competitor to surpass.
But India can’t actually compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale. India apparently has not yet realized this.
Indian politicians these days seem to think their country would be doing China a huge favor simply by not joining the “ring around China” established by the US and Japan.
India’s growing power would have a significant impact on the balance of this equation, which has led India to think that fear and gratitude for its restraint will cause China to defer to it on territorial disputes.
But this is wishful thinking, as China won’t make any compromises in its border disputes with India. And while China wishes to coexist peacefully with India, this desire isn’t born out of fear.
India’s current course can only lead to a rivalry between the two countries. India needs
to consider whether or not it can afford the consequences of a potential confrontation with China. It should also be asking itself why it hasn’t forged the stable and friendly relationship with China that China enjoys with many of India’s neighbors, like Pakistan, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
Any aggressive moves will certainly not aid the development of good relations with China. India should examine its attitude and preconceptions; it will need to adjust if it hopes to cooperate with China and achieve a mutually beneficial outcome.

 

[wangrong]

 

[Gucci Juice]

I think there is a huge gap between wat China achieved and what India sofar did. India might dream about super powers or super tech but it has not shown anthing sofar. Building downgraded copies with help of man and calling it superduper after three decades is something that is not comparable with J10-B or J11. And JF17 might be originall in the same league but it alread have passed LCA with huge distance. Telling about what LCA theoretical should have been doesn't make it that good in realit. Why else would it be remembered as technology developement and not real fighter jet. Buying a few shows that it is a failed program.

i'm sry but jf-17 has not passed the lca whatsoever, it may be inducted faster but the paf has lower standards than the iaf.

in its present state the lca has a high % composites, same performance engine, a much better aesa radar, and better avionics.

the composites and the engine alone mean that maintenance will be a lot less than on the jf-17 and the reduced weight of the airframe combined with the same thrust means the lca can carry more than the jf-17 meaning increased range/more weapons.

the lca blk 2 will have a ej-200 engine which may have tvc (unconfirmed reports) with it the lca will be more maneuverable and also be able to carry more.

on the other hand u have a jf-17 with a mostly metal airframe, an rd-33 (which is a good engine but people here claim its crappy because its used in mig-29s), regular radar, no tvc, and possibility of a future upgrade.

but if the future upgrade involves French/European avionics than get ready to pay 5-10 million per plane for avionics alone, and if it also involves an engine get ready to pay another 10 million.