JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[Arsalan]

and 4 bombs that are used to low and fast over the target...

Sounds like the typical long tipe loitering and then hit Taleban convoy.

hmm! but i dont think they are operational for such missions, still undergoing weapon integration and evaluation i think!

the first squadron is not battle ready yet!

by the way we have been listening to this "weapon integration" for
quite some time but no news of any air to air oe air to ground test JF17 have conducted!

i would love to see pics and clips of JF17 firing ammunition just as we see with other planes in our PAF songs!!

Regards!

 

[mean_bird]

Found some misconceptions about JF-17 on the "JF-17 vs Su-30 MKI" thread, regarding people doubting the avionics of the JF-17.

Ofcourse the whole avionics package is not public but here I would like to quote whatever is in the open. The following is a translation of an article that appeared at the time when Musharraf visited China and say the flight of JF-17 and was shown around the facility of J-10.

It appeared in a magazine with a defense background and that is widely touted as credible on chinese defense matters. The translation was generously done by TPhuang from sinodefence.

JF-17 is currently China's only advanced fighter developed in open. Many people use it to understand China's fighter development direction. The DSI change that started in June of 2004 caused many surprises, so did the Leading edge extension in September. Since 2006, JF-17 has been viewed even more when President Musharraf visited. CCTV showed brand new JF-17 04 with a previously unseen modern glass cockpit. This cockpit represent ourcountry's avionics level has reached world class. JF-17 showed 1 HUD and 2 MFD in the cockpit in previous displays. There were analog controls in the middle. The look was similar to F-16a/b. In 2004, zhuhai airshow showed a cockpit with 1 HUD and 3 MFDs. All the analog meters on the cockpit got replaced by digital control. Cockpit underwent a total digital information redesign. However, the model does not give people the good feeling that a real thing would.

Everyone knows that JF-17 is a China/Pakistan combined venture. JF-17's main aim is to equip PAF.In south Asian crisis, Pakistan receive American embargo. It not only failed to receive 79 F-16s it order, but also could not get spare parts to F-16. As a result, it had to order 80 F-7PG and some squadrons even got F-16s replaced by F-7PG. This is rarely seen in military aviation. JF-17's development is extremely urgent. Pakistan believes that JF-17's capability and price should be lower than F-16C/D, but capability should be higher than F-16A/B. Due to the anti-terrorism planning, PAF's importance got changed. America not only agreed to sell F-16, but also some advanced F-16s that it could not get before. Due to this pressure, JF-17's requirement got increased. It needs to be more advanced than F-16, that's why you see the whole change in 04.

The new cockpit's electronic system showed JF-17's modified capability. The new cockpit is very compact and functional position is positioned well and shows very mature system. 1 HUD is the main fighter display. This HUD has 24 degree in sight. It can add infrared signal? and supply flying, navigation, liftoff and landing info, it can also display target details and shooting detail. It can also communicate, navigate using the GUI There is a camera located above the HUD. It records HUD and external sights. HUD is the most important instrument in flight. Integrated informational level is dependent on this. Russia added some nice looking displays for su-30, but their display information is simple and information is spread. So, it did not really integrate the information. The JF-17 HUD uses a lot of digital processing and information integration information. For example, radar information, fight command info. HUD's controller has the ability to change display. Controller can also control all of the plane's dipslay. 3 MFDs are below the HUD. It is multi-colour LCD display. The dimension of the MFD is 20.3cmx30.6cm (note: this works out to be 8 x 12 inch, but a more realistic estimation is 6.25x8.25). The area is 4 times the previous area. The display brightness and contrast can be automatically adjusted. It also allows handle control. Each MFD displays important function. Display info can be changed. The control on the side acts as parameter design. Very often, left side shows weapon situation and numbers. Right side displays radar and combat info. The center shows some less important info, because it requires the pilot to lower his/her head. Like navigational info and map and so so. All the MFD can change to other info like radar, cockpit camera? and infrared picture and such. cockpit also allows night navigation and pilots can use night goggles to fly.

04 uses a hotas controller? pilot can keep hands on controller and still control the fighter's sensor mode, weapon and display. This greatly reduces a pilots movement and makes operation much easier. The controller does not affect the position in combat? Basically, allows pilots to keep the hand on the controller in combat. The earlier western 4th generation fighters like F-16A/B only had limited functions on the controller. JF-17 hotas uses advanced western design like F-16C/d, F-18C/D and Mirage2K5's newest model for design. Also, the system has different controls dependent on the hand size, length and finger size and length of the user. Basically, uses customizable controller. Allows a lot of activities done with limited energy. 04 uses all digital integrated electronic display. all computers/electronics uses 2 STD-MTL-1553B databus combined, curren info shared repository and shared data repository. According to demand, it also divides into weapons w/commands, radar, EW, communication, electronic control, payload control, FBW and so on. This avionics system's core lies in 2 advanced weapons controlling computer. these two computers do something... Each computer controls 1 double thick 1553B databus? This computer uses new structure system. It uses main controller rights to receive and process each system's info. At the same time, receive pilot's command. Uses command to control other systems. It's current world's most advanced input computer and main line integration web. Very few new fighters has this kind of complex and high speed system like typhoon, rafale and F-16 E/F. This system uses battle flight software package to exercise control and allows using development of more detailed software package to improve fighter capability and work load. Weapon controlling computer directly connects to MFD's structure. It uses information from each system to display on the 1 HUD and 3MFDs. Radar system is another important part of JF-17. It's also a major commercial battle area. Pakistan used a lot of Grifo radar in the past on F-7s. JF-17 also was about to use this. Italy also pitted Grifo-S2000 (should be S7) in competition. China also provided a radar for customers. Domestic radar has good support for China's weapon systems and missiles. The current multimode PD radar has BVR capability, WVR capability and attack land and sea mode and other modes. Also has look down and shoot down capability even under disruptive environments below.

You can Track 10 targets from 40 scanned targets and handle 2 concurrent BVR engagement. The range vs 3 m^2 targets is larger than 75KM and look down
is larger than 45 KM. It is larger than 135 KM vs sea targets. 04's GPS navigation system replaced the traditional navigation system, greatly improved precision and reduced preparation time. Talks about GPs capability after this and how American military controls it. It also has other wireless navigation but not as precise as GPS.

JF-17's EW suite is very complex. It combines radar warning receiver and missile proximity receiver to form surveillence system and combined with ECM work. JF-17 uses uses something to diagnose RWR. It can receive a lot of information like fighter radar, missile seeker, A2S guidance radar and provides within 1.5 degree news. RAR has about 100+ radar info repository. It uses measured info to compare. detect the threatening origin and correct (radar type or fighter type?) and warning level. This repository can improve to 300. It can allow reprogramming, receive wartime newly discovered radar signal. 04's improved tail (backside" contains a missile proximity receiver. There will probably be two more put on the fighter for 360 degree coverage. It uses infrared and purple dual band imagine device. It has a purple red window? It can sense missile's rocket engine spoke from 20 KM in. It can correctly predict missile's location, trail and such. It can even estimate engagement time. It can be expanded to a fighter/missile recognition system. It can also provide some infrared imaging, communicate with RWR and hopefully can develop passive signal detection technology.

04's EW suite also has a ECM pod. It and the ECM on the tail provide joint work. ECM current uses traidtional infrared something? modern missile's countermeasure to this is getting stronger each day. To let this simple and cheap ECM achieve high efficiency shows system's level, RWR, MPR and such. This system is only equipped by rafale and F-22. F-18E/F and F-16E/F needs upgrade to have this. 04 should also have ECM inside of fighter. It uses modern ECM technology and uses precise tracking system. Can achieve the affect of large ECM machine with small equipment. This ECM is most modern active guided AAM. It can also counter gither radar lock and scan. It's mainly for PAF's enemy IAF's R-77 missiles.

To acommodate modern web of combat. 04 is equipped with 2 ECM vs radar tower and something else. It can receive datalink info from ground or AWACS. Other equippments include big air computer? and advanced digital processing signal and such. The electronic system stores everything, all the bugs and such. It can use computer to process this. Reduces ground maintenance.

It uses western standard MIL-STD-1760 to allow for integration of western weapons and can also get hooked on with Russian weapons. It will probably uses PL-9C, SD-10, PL-11, AIM-9L/M and AIM-7F. It also good use LGBs and possible A2G missile integration.

And this was what has been revealed back when PT-04 was tested for full avionics, and what is publicly available. Attached is the article in chinese for those in any doubt.

Just to refresh the memories of people.

 

[HarryPotter]

FC-1 / JF-17 Multirole Fighter Aircraft


Official designation: Fighter China-1 (FC-1) Xiaolong
PAF designation: Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder
Function: Air-superiority; Ground attack
Designer: Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute)
Manufacturer: Chengdu Aircraft Industry (Group) Corporation Ltd. (CAC)
Maiden flight: 25 August 2003
Operator: Pakistani Air Force
Estimated cost: US$15~20 million

The FC-1 (Fighter China-1) Xiaolong is the result of a joint Sino-Pakistani development programme that started in 1999, with each side contributing 50% of the total development cost. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China is the prime contractor for aircraft development and manufacture, while Pakistani Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is the main partner responsible for post-sale service and maintenance, as well as the production of some parts for the aircraft in Pakistan. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute). Russia supplied its Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine for the aircraft.

The initial order was from the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) for eight aircraft, which were delivered in 2007~08. A further order for 42 aircraft worth about US$800 million was signed in March 2009. The aircraft is currently being built by CAC at a rate of 15 aircraft per annum, and this will increase to 30 aircraft per annum later. The total number required by the PAF could be as many as 250, worth US$3~5 billion.

Several other countries also showed interest in the aircraft. Despite previous reports suggesting that the FC-1 would also be equipped by the PLAAF, no order has been reported so far.

Programme

The FC-1 traces its origin to the Super-7 fighter programme, a joint Chengdu-Grumman development project worth US$500 million to upgrade the Chinese J-7 (MiG-21) fighter. Proposed upgrades included removing the fighter's nose air intake and replacing it with a ‘solid’ nose with two lateral air intakes, as well as upgrading the fighter with Western-made avionics and engine. The development agreement was signed in 1986, but the programme was cancelled in 1990, in the wake of the cooling political relations between China and the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project.

Chengdu continued the Super-7 project independently and re-branded the design as FC-1. In 1999, China and Pakistan concluded a joint development and production agreement to co-develop the FC-1 fighter. Under the agreement, the programme was to be jointly funded by the China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan, each with 50% stake of the joint venture. The total cost of the development programme was estimated to be US$150 million. Russian Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) reportedly provided some assistance in the development of the aircraft

The first prototype of the FC-1 rolled out on 31 May 2003, and the aircraft made its maiden flight successfully on 25 August. A total of three flying prototypes were developed, along with a static prototype. Flight trial of the aircraft completed in 2005 and the aircraft entered production in June 2006.



JF-17 of the Pakistani Air Force (Chinese Military Aviation)
In March 2007, CAC delivered two JF-17 fighters (#101, #102) to the PAF on 12 March 2007. They made their debut on 23 March during a fly-past as part of the Pakistan Day military parade in Islamabad. A further six aircraft were delivered to the PAF in 2008. Under the joint development agreement, the PAF will acquire up to 250 examples of the fighter in several batches, with the avionics systems gradually upgraded in later batches. Some production will also be carried out by PAC in Pakistan, including the manufacture of the aircraft’s wings and fin.

CAC and CATIC are also actively marketing the FC-1 to other developing countries as a low-cost replacement for the Northrop F-5 Tiger, Dassault Mirage III/5, Shenyang J-6, MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed, and Nanchang Q-5. Potential customers could include Bangladesh, Iran, Egypt and Nigeria.

Design

The FC-1 adopts a rather conventional aerodynamic layout, with mid-mounted wings, lateral air intakes, single-frame bubble cockpit canopy, and two under-belly stabilising fins. The drag chute bay is located at the root of the rudder. An electronic equipment pod is mounted on the tip of the rudder. The formal production variant of the FC-1 features a diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) similar to those of the U.S. F-35 fighter for better air-intake efficiency.

Radar

The JF-17s in service with the PAF are fitted with an Italian Grifo S-7 multi-track, multi-mode, pulse Doppler radar radar. The radar has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours, and is capable of “look-down, shoot-down”, as well as for ground strike abilities. Alternatively, the aircraft can be fitted with the Thales RC400, GEC Marconi Blue Hawk, Russian Phazotron Zemchug/Kopyo, and Chinese indigenous KLJ-7 developed by Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET).

Cockpit and Avionics Systems



The FC-1 / JF-17 features a ‘glass cockpit’ with three large multifunctional displays (Chinese Internet)
The FC-1’s avionics architecture is supported by two mission computers based on Multi-Bus System (MIL-STD-1553B). The heart of the system is a 32-bit Weapon and Mission management Computer (WMMC) which performs mission computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-test.

Navigation -- Hybrid inertial navigation system (INS) and global positioning system (GPS);
Communications -- Independent data link with two Independent wide-band radios with anti-jamming capabilities;
Electronic warfare (EW) -- Self production jammer, missile approach warning system, radar warning receiver (RWR), chaff & flare dispenser;
Identification of Friend and foe (IFF) -- IFF interrogator for target verification at the BVR range;
‘Glass’ cockpit -- Three large Multifunction Colour Displays (MFD) and smart Heads-Up Display (HUD) with built-in symbol generation capability; HOTAS;
Targeting -- Laser Designator and Targeting Pod (LDTP) for target illumination and detection with day/ night capabilities;
Weapons

Fixed weapon includes a GSh-23 dual-barrel 23mm cannon. Alternatively the aircraft can be fitted with a GSh-30 dual-30mm cannon. There are 7 stores stations, including one under the fuselage, 4 under the wings, and 2 wingtip mounted, with up to 3,700kg weapon payload.

The aircraft is callable of ‘beyond-visual-range’ (BVR) attack capability with the PL-12/SD-10 active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM) developed by China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI, also known as 607 Institute). The aircraft also carries two short-range AAMs on its wingtip-mounted launch rails. The options include U.S. AIM-9P and Chinese PL-7, PL-8, and PL-9.

The aircraft can carry a special pod allowing day/night delivery of laser-guided weapons. In addition, it can also carry unguided weapons such as low-drag general-purpose (LDGP) bombs and unguided rocket launchers.

Engine

The FC-1/JF-17 is powered by a Russian-made Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine rated 49.4kN dry or 84.4kN with afterburning. The RD-93 is a derivation of the RD-33 used by the MiG-29 fighter. In 2007, China signed a contract with Russia to supply 150 RD-93 engines for the JF-17 production.

Liyang Aero Engine Corporation in Guizhou is reportedly developing an indigenous turbofan engine designated WS-13 (or Tianshan-21) as an alterative powerplant option for the FC-1. The engine was said to have been based on the RD-93 design with some modifications.

Specifications

Crew: One
Length: 14m
Wingspan: 8.5m (without wingtip missiles)
Wing area: 24.4m2
Height: 5.10m
Empty weight: 6,411kg
Loaded weight: 9,100kg (without two wingtip missiles)
Take-off weight: (normal) 9,100kg; (maximum) 12,700kg
Fuel capacity: 2,300kg
In-flight refuelling: No
Weapon payload: 3,700kg
Powerplant: 1X Russian RD-93 turbofan, rated at 49.4kN dry or 84.4kN with afterburning
Max level speed: Mach 1.6~1.8 (high altitude)
Max climb rate: N/A
Service ceiling: 16,700m
Ferry range: 3,000km
Combat radius: 1,350km
G limit: -3 ~ +8.5
Fixed weapon: 23mm or 30mm single-barrel cannon
External hardpoints: Seven (1 under the fuselage centerline; 4 under the wings; 2 on the wingtips)

I thought that the production was made in Pakistan.

sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

 

[Arsalan]

production is pakistan have begun!

this article and its issues have already been disscussed!

 

[Gucci Juice]

so umm that article confirms that there will only by 130-150 jf-17s by 2015 not 250, considering that 15 a/c for 1-2 years then 30 per year.

so by 2015 we can expect

130-150 jf-17s
18 f-16 C block 52
46 F-15 A/B upgraded
36 j-10B
50 F-7
100 mirage ROSE

18 4.5 gen a/c (f-16 block 52)
180 4 gen a/c (j-10, f-16 a/b, and jf-17)
150 3rd and 3.5 gen a/c (ROSE and f-7)

supported by...

4 eryie
4 y-8
4 il-78 tankers
10 orions

right?

 

[IceCold]

so umm that article confirms that there will only by 130-150 jf-17s by 2015 not 250, considering that 15 a/c for 1-2 years then 30 per year.

so by 2015 we can expect

130-150 jf-17s
18 f-16 C block 52
46 F-15 A/B upgraded
36 j-10B
50 F-7
100 mirage ROSE

18 4.5 gen a/c (f-16 block 52)
180 4 gen a/c (j-10, f-16 a/b, and jf-17)
150 3rd and 3.5 gen a/c (ROSE and f-7)

supported by...

4 eryie
4 y-8
4 il-78 tankers
10 orions

right?

Just a correction we are not getting F-15s, i think you meant F-16 A/B upgraded.

 

[Imran Khan]

Great to hear that PAF Peshwar will be the first base to receive the new fighters. Historically, it was always Sargodha that received the new weapon systems whether it was F-104 or Mirages or F-16s. Any new system brings a whole lot of changes at the Base in terms of modernising and building new infrastructure. From aircraft operating surfaces, aircraft shelters, avionics shops, engine shops, armament squadron, logistics squadron to even officer mess and hospital, everything receives a complete/ partial make over to suit the requirements of new fighter. It’s kind of a changes and emotions you notice in a family when a new baby arrives in your home and everyone around wants to be part of it.

I think Sargodha had its fair share in the past and its time that Peshawar also gets all the uplift that it really deserves. PAF Peshawar is one of the oldest bases with very rich history and traditions and it’s unique in many ways. If one Google Earths or drives from the northern end of runway toward south, you see a very mix of aircrafts.

The first thing you see is a fighter squadron. Driving further south,

You will come across few Alouette helicopters that are part of the helicopter conversion school.

On main tarmac you might see a C-130 that is regularly deployed there for the paratrooping guys.

Being an International airport, one will also come across an Airbus or Boeing 737 parked at main tarmac.

Driving further down, you will see the Cessna’s or other light aircrafts from the Peshawar Flying Club.

Further down from flying club, there is a squadron of fixed wing aircrafts from Army Aviation.

And when you reach the end, you will see another fighter squadron.

All these aircrafts within a length of 9000 feet. Its a heaven for plane spotters. There is no other airfield in Pakistan that houses such a mix or variety of aircrafts. And now with Thunders arriving, it will definitely add further colour in and around the Base.

sir what abut train crossing on run way of Peshawar air base i surprised.

and please what abut this caution abut peshawer air base?

CAUTION No acft to enter within 10 NM Peshawar wo 3 min prior perms. All civ jet airlineand C130 acft make 18 turns on conc only at thld with CW turns on Rwy 17 and CCW turns on Rwy 35. Avoid full pwr until 500' fr rwy ends to minimize A-GEAR damage.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Less then 5 years ago Peshawar complete runway was renovated..or atleast i know 80% was renovated..i also heard they might expand extend runway airport removing couple of villages that include Abdara and Naway kaley 2 villages extremely close to the airport runways...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

so umm that article confirms that there will only by 130-150 jf-17s by 2015 not 250, considering that 15 a/c for 1-2 years then 30 per year.

The 250 number may also include production in China.

 

[mean_bird]

I thought that the production was made in Pakistan.

sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

It is the site Admin/Mod opinion and there is nothing official to it. AFAIK, production will start on both sites with gradual increment of PAC Kamra till 2010-11 when 60% airframe and 80% avionics will be manufactured in PAC Kamra.

Regarding numbers as some people have raised the question, the first 50 would be completed towards the 2010-11 according to ex-ACM interviews. He has also mentioned that there is provision for expanding the capacity at Kamra to produce more planes if need, but will require some investment for capability expansion, and there is also possibility to procure from both PAC Kamra and CAC if there is need to urgently replace all the existing fleet.

It all depends on what PAF wants and the finances. Having the capacity to build the planes is not an issue if PAF wants 250 planes by 2015.

 

[x_man]

sir what abut train crossing on run way of Peshawar air base i surprised.

Railway line is been there since ages and is used to carry POL to the base.

CAUTION No acft to enter within 10 NM Peshawar wo 3 min prior perms.

Every airfield has a Air Traffic Zone with specified radius and height band and Peshawar is no exception to it. Have a look at any aviation map and you will find that Sargodha has ~ 100 KM radius around it and any aircraft entering it will need to chat with air traffic. So as every other base has its own zone boundaries.

All civ jet airlineand C130 acft make 18 turns on conc only at thld with CW turns on Rwy 17 and CCW turns on Rwy 35.

CW turn for R/W 17 and CCW for R/W 35 is made for a reason. On both ends of the runway there are lot of jets parked and if a C-130 or an Airbus makes a CCW turn for R/W 17, its jet wash will blow lots of dust and debris onto the adjacent flight lines...

Avoid full pwr until 500' fr rwy ends to minimize A-GEAR damage.

No idea what you are trying to state here. Every aircraft takes off with full thrust or after burner ( in case of fighters).

 

[sancho]

I have a question, I often read that PAF is looking for an onther engine for JF17, probably the French M88. Would US engines from F16 or F18 SH be an option too? I know US maybe is not the most reliable partner, but the US engines offer higher thrust and maybe more commonality to the F16 PAF has right?

 

[Owais]

I have a question, I often read that PAF is looking for an onther engine for JF17, probably the French M88. Would US engines from F16 or F18 SH be an option too? I know US maybe is not the most reliable partner, but the US engines offer higher thrust and maybe more commonality to the F16 PAF has right?

F16s engine cannot be fitted in JF17 because PW-F100 or GE-F110 are much bigger than RD93. F18SH uses General Electric F414 engine which is a much better engine but Uncle Sam is our short term ally and long term foe so getting any kind of equipment for PAF Backbone from US is not possible. on the other hand, Snecma M88 have Dry thrust equal to RD93 and max thrust is less than RD93 so M88 is also out. may be some Improved version of M88 will be considered for thunder.

 

[Arsalan]

I have a question, I often read that PAF is looking for an onther engine for JF17, probably the French M88. Would US engines from F16 or F18 SH be an option too? I know US maybe is not the most reliable partner, but the US engines offer higher thrust and maybe more commonality to the F16 PAF has right?

well M88 is down and out it is equal if not inferior to the already incorporated engine!

as far as US are concerned we MUST not buy a single screw for JF17 from them other wise the main theam of developing an indegenious fightr plane, that was to avoid sanctions, will die! so a big NO to US for JF17 equipment!

all we are left with at the moment is to pray that chines develop some thing nice to meet our requirment or we can get someting more advance from russia through the same chines channel from we got the RD93!

regards!

 

[mean_bird]

F16s engine cannot be fitted in JF17 because PW-F100 or GE-F110 are much bigger than RD93. F18SH uses General Electric F414 engine which is a much better engine but Uncle Sam is our short term ally and long term foe so getting any kind of equipment for PAF Backbone from US is not possible. on the other hand, Snecma M88 have Dry thrust equal to RD93 and max thrust is less than RD93 so M88 is also out. may be some Improved version of M88 will be considered for thunder.

I agree US engines is not an option. Personally, I doubt PAF will go for an engine change. I heard they had made some good progress in terms of serviceability of the RD-93 (i.e reducing the time to overhaul/change). Possibly an improved version of it or the WS-13 should be the way forward, atleast in the short term.

Btw, M88 ECO will have an A/B thrust of 90KN while M53 P-2 has an A/B of 95KN and a Dry thrust of 64KN. Thrust sounds good but technology is a bit older than M88.

Reference SNECMA engines