JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[blain2]

Engine smoke is still an issue. Sherdils fly the T-37 Tweety birds.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

so does anyone know a bit about this
"Although the 60% of the airframe will be manufactured in pakistan, does this mean that we will produce the parts through our own metallurgical experience or will we just ship those parts from china and assemble it?

I don't take assembling an aircraft to be the same as producing one. What can this mean for pakistan's defense industry? I know that PAC has its own wind tunnel, will we be able to design and produce our own aircraft in the future if necessary? Can someone please answer these questions, I don't want my patriotism getting in the way of facts."

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

i hate to break this, but i don't take this as "true" self-reliance. we are just assembling parts that are sent from china.

for example, iran reversed engineered its F-5 aircraft and then designed another aircraft on its own. even though their aircraft is totally crap, it's still their crap. iran has limited information and is barred from the rest of the world, yet they still have been able to do something.

I'm hoping pakistan is sending students to china to seek knowledge of aircraft design. we need to be able to stand on our own feet, rather than getting ToT on military acquisitions. by posting this, i hope i haven't insulted anyone. it's just that i don't want what i hope for getting in the way of what pakistan is actually capable of.

 

[IceCold]

Engine smoke is still an issue. Sherdils fly the T-37 Tweety birds.

Sir! thankyou for clearing up the model. If you happened to see this parade and the one last year, as compared to the previous year the smoke was very much more. Whereas if we go by the theory it should had been less because according to the offical claims, smoke issue was resolved to some extent, why was the smoke more as compared to last year when we got the first 2 prototypes for a flypast on 23rd march?
I really have a bad feeling about this.

 

[Awaaz]

Sir! thankyou for clearing up the model. If you happened to see this parade and the one last year, as compared to the previous year the smoke was very much more. Whereas if we go by the theory it should had been less because according to the offical claims, smoke issue was resolved to some extent, why was the smoke more as compared to last year when we got the first 2 prototypes for a flypast on 23rd march?
I really have a bad feeling about this.

Well what does it all mean in simple english?

Does it mean that there is going to be a delay to initial batch that is being started, the chinese engine is a few years away, so where does this leave paf?.

Also if pakistan is going to manufacture 60/70 percent of the aircraft, does that include the engine and if so will that be the russian or the chinese?.

 

[BATMAN]

WS-13 will be in serial production from 2009 so it is not avry far away.
This info was broke on this forum in another thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/8169-ws-13-has-been-certified-2.html
As we know in 2008 Kamra planned to build only 8 frames, so if WS-13 will be available in 2009, we will be loosing nothing.We must also not forget that RD-33 is used in russian mig-29.
Despite the smoke issue, RD-33 is a high proformance engine but its MTBF is low as compare to western counterparts.

Still, German airforce have proved that MTBF can be increased with on time service. It is said that due to modular construction it's service is easy as compare to western designs.
RD-33 earned bad reputition from there service in Indian Air force, which was due to low quality of service and assembling work quality issues of HAL.

It is said that in RD-33 OVT smoke issue is completely solved. I really wish we get OVT version.

I doubt what we see in pictures is regular smoke, it could be due to the not optimum combustion of vigorous throttling during maneuverings show.

 

[fatman17]

so does anyone know a bit about this
"Although the 60% of the airframe will be manufactured in pakistan, does this mean that we will produce the parts through our own metallurgical experience or will we just ship those parts from china and assemble it?

I don't take assembling an aircraft to be the same as producing one. What can this mean for pakistan's defense industry? I know that PAC has its own wind tunnel, will we be able to design and produce our own aircraft in the future if necessary? Can someone please answer these questions, I don't want my patriotism getting in the way of facts."

guys lets not get emotional!

this is just the start. PAC Kamra and its technicians will be facing a steep learning curve in the next 2-3 years. once they have fully experienced and integrated the manufacturing process, the JF-17s will be manufactured at Kamra (airframe, radar etc), the engines will be imported (russian or chinese) and the weapons systems (AAMs,AGMs etc) will also be imported.

so give PAF some space and refrain from making un-warranted assumptions. whats the panic!

 

[BATMAN]

Hon Batman, gas turbines donot necessarily use natural gas as fuel. Gas turbine merely refers to the fact the hot gases are used to derive the turbine blades, where as steam turbines use steam and wind turbines use power from the wind.

Nearly all the refineries that I have worked, used gas turbines to generate power. The last one used fuel oil ( Furnace Oil in Pakistan) as gas turbine fuel. The fuel is injected into a combustion chamber and the resulting hot gases push thru turbine blades, thereby runing the supercharger for the air used in the combustion chamber as well as turning the alternator.

I also had the opportunity of visiting the Rolls Royce plant in East Kilbirde near Glasgow during my brief tenure at the National Engineering Laboratories and have seen the aircraft engines being assembled.

Early jet engines were pure jets but now nearly all the aircraft engines use some kind of gas turbines. Even the turbo props use turbines. While no expert on aircraft engines, it is safe to say that unless it is described as a ramjet or pure jet; an aircraft engine would be a sophisticated gas turbine. Thus RD-93 is a gas turbine using Jet A-1 ( a purified kerosene) as fuel.

Regret to sound like a lecturer, but I have the bad habit of not accepting an incorrect statement.

Thank you Mr. Niaz for helping with the information, you are an asset.
I appreciate your habbit of not accepting incorrect statements, so please, keep correcting me without regrets, where ever you feel I'm wrong.

 

[Quwa]

For the first 50 aircraft we will have to deal with RD-93 or WS-13, but it is not a big issue as the primary purpose of these aircraft will be to "bridge" for doctrine change. I suspect the first 50 will produce a PAC-unit, 2-fighter squadrons and maybe a small group of 6? LIFT fighters. I also imagine that the LIFT and 2 squadrons will be feeder squadrons for many future pilots.

The future batches will see some key RCS-reduction and improvement in situation-awareness & security. For instance there will be much greater composite use; RAM-coating applied to canopy; possibly AESA radar; our own Link-16/22; weapons embedded with airframe; etc. If all these changes are taking place, then a fairly major engine shift should be expected...and I think PAF is aiming WS-12 or EJ200 standard.

 

[IceCold]

I think PAF is aiming WS-12 or EJ200 standard.

If i'm not mistaken EJ-200 is the one that is used in EF. My question is will it be available to PAF to be installed on JF-17 provided with the complexity of the relationships specially when china too is involved in the project. Besides even if it is would it be a wise decision to go for a european engine when sactions can be placed at any time and could bring the whole project to a complete halt.

 

[BATMAN]

Specifications given on JF-17.com : Your Best Resource for JF-17/FC-1 match to the RD-33 OVT.
If we look at the specs. of RD-33 without OVT it has greater mass and less thrust.
Shall we assume that RD-93 is a vriant of RD-33OVT?

Mr. Murrad mentioned last time that grey JF_17 is in Pakistan and not more! JF-17 enthusists like to know about the flat top variant.

 

[fatman17]

conformal fuel tanks perhaps!

 

[Muradk]

no I am sure its not CFT, and I am not an engg so my guess by looking at it I see a white Antena. Or the Chinese just decided to change the design a little bit to see how the forces react with a flat top. Drag ( less or more ).

 

[BATMAN]

no I am sure its not CFT, and I am not an engg so my guess by looking at it I see a white Antena. Or the Chinese just decided to change the design a little bit to see how the forces react with a flat top. Drag ( less or more ).

I think that's exactly what it is.
Falttop could be one of the prototypes and final design does not have it due improvements.
Last night I had a dream about next version of JF-17 and it was like the shape of aero tip.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

JF-17 won't have CFT(conformal Fuel tanks), it's a light-weight multi-role fighter. besides, before adding on more hardpoints and CFT, we need to increase the TWR.